R+L = J v. 24

[Alia of the knife]

I get angry over bad logic. Sometimes it comes from the 'pro' side - for all the evidence, the theory is NOT proven; it fits the known facts better than any other theory, but it is not definitive by any means - but usually, it's the 'anti' side that drives me nuts. I get really frustrated when people refuse to engage the terms of the debate, and go on and on about either irrelevant details, or completely ignore factual evidence in play.

I hesitate to call someone a troll, but it's really hard for me to believe sometimes that certain posters are not deliberately acting dense to get a rise out of people.

Fair enough.

I do believe that Jon is R+L, I suppose where I differ is whether or not Lyanna was willing, and that she was in love with either Rhaegar, or Robert.

Sometimes I think she was willing, but then sometimes I think not, but, I do think Jon was the outcome.

[Eira Seren]

is it just me, or on tonight's pre-show glimpse of the iron throne, was that jon sitting on it? means nothing, i know

[Lady Octarina]

is it just me, or on tonight's pre-show glimpse of the iron throne, was that jon sitting on it? means nothing, i know

Those are the old season one promos, aren't they? But I do think it's telling that Jon is the only character who's not either in a position of power or seeking one that appears sitting on the throne in those images.

[Azor Azai]

Probably been asked before but....Do we have any knowledge of any previous Targ/Stark matings?

[Ursa]

No, we don't, although the Targ family tree (at least the one the fans have seen) isn't 100% complete, so it could be possible.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Probably been asked before but....Do we have any knowledge of any previous Targ/Stark matings?

No. While Ursa is correct that the Targ family tree is incomplete, I highly, highly doubt there was ever such a union.

[The guy from the Vale]

I also think the closest we ever got to a Targ/Stark pairing was Bloodraven, who had a strong First Man heritage. But that's about it. We'd certainly have heard of such cases before, given that we know the Stark an Targ family histories better than any other.

[Milcov]

Fair enough.

I do believe that Jon is R+L, I suppose where I differ is whether or not Lyanna was willing, and that she was in love with either Rhaegar, or Robert.

Sometimes I think she was willing, but then sometimes I think not, but, I do think Jon was the outcome.

I'm not certain she was willing to go into a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar. However I'd stake my life on her not being in love with Robert, and as half the women in Westeros (and probably some of the boys, Jon Connington) seem to adore Rhaegar I'd say it's well within the realms of possibility for Lyanna to go willingly though it is a lot more uncertain than R+L=J

[ViennaGirl]

is it just me, or on tonight's pre-show glimpse of the iron throne, was that jon sitting on it? means nothing, i know

I loved that Ghost was there, too. LOVE. Probably means nothing, but I love it anyway. I don't even want Jon on the throne...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

OK, I just had my mind blown all over again.

This is from the Tower of the Hand essay about R+L=J. I was rereading it again (Dragonfish linked to it in another thread).

So for ... some reason ... I always thought that, when Jon dreams about going down into the crypts in Game of Thrones, the stone kings were the ones telling him that he wasn't a Stark. But no.

"I'm walking down this long empty hall... opening doors, shouting names... the castle is always empty... the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me... I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream... that's when I always wake."

The stone kings aren't telling Jon he isn't a Stark. He's telling himself that he isn't, but he still has to go down there. It is his place, because he is a Stark, even he's Lyanna's Stark and not Ned's.

[Alia of the knife]

OK, I just had my mind blown all over again.

This is from the Tower of the Hand essay about R+L=J. I was rereading it again (Dragonfish linked to it in another thread).

So for ... some reason ... I always thought that, when Jon dreams about going down into the crypts in Game of Thrones, the stone kings were the ones telling him that he wasn't a Stark. But no.

The stone kings aren't telling Jon he isn't a Stark. He's telling himself that he isn't, but he still has to go down there. It is his place, because he is a Stark, even he's Lyanna's Stark and not Ned's.

Perhaps it's the abstract idea that he doesn't consider himself a Stark the way Robb and the other children are- he's an outsider because he's a bastard.

Martin may be applying another double entendre' because he isn't the Stark he wants to be.

He's another mans son, though he has Neds blood by way of his Mother.

I'm not certain she was willing to go into a polygamous marriage with Rhaegar. However I'd stake my life on her not being in love with Robert, and as half the women in Westeros (and probably some of the boys, Jon Connington) seem to adore Rhaegar I'd say it's well within the realms of possibility for Lyanna to go willingly though it is a lot more uncertain than R+L=J

I'd say the odds are yes, she did love Rhaegar, but loving Rhaegar doesn't necessarily translate into her acting on it, compromising not only her honor, but her familys, especially when it would seem that honor is an important factor to her, at least from the few clues we've been given about her.

It's also been my experience that it's when you don't care for someone that you don't care what they do, so, I think it's possible her reaction to Roberts infidelity could be read as one of disappointment and disgruntlement, because she actually does care for Robert.

Again, if she didn't care on some level, she might even be relieved, because if Roberts gone all the time, or with other women, he's not going to care what she's doing.

And, she's been raised in a house full of men, so she shouldn't be all that surprised, because even Cat was stoic about those behaviors, which leads to my skepticism at the arguement that she'd then be okay with Rhaegars infidelity.

The only difference is that Rhaegar apparently made no claims to love Elia, while Robert did claim to love her, so at the worst, Robert is a hypocrite.

If we're to take Arya as a "template," then it's possible that Lyanna had the same views as Arya, and saw marriage and being a great Lady, or a Princess as something that other girls dreamed of, but not her.

And, unlike everyone else in the Kingdom, Lyanna may have actually been the only one who didn't fall all over Rhaegar.

[Lady Octarina]

It's also been my experience that it's when you don't care for someone that you don't care what they do, so, I think it's possible her reaction to Roberts infidelity could be read as one of disappointment and disgruntlement, because she actually does care for Robert.

Again, if she didn't care on some level, she might even be relieved, because if Roberts gone all the time, or with other women, he's not going to care what she's doing.

And, she's been raised in a house full of men, so she shouldn't be all that surprised, because even Cat was stoic about those behaviors, which leads to my skepticism at the arguement that she'd then be okay with Rhaegars infidelity.

The only difference is that Rhaegar apparently made no claims to love Elia, while Robert did claim to love her, so at the worst, Robert is a hypocrite.

I agree with most of your post, except this. I never understood from Ned's recollections that she'd be heartbroken by Robert's behavior, I always took that scene to mean that Lyanna was perfectly aware of how marriages usually go in Westeros, and that despite all Robert's claims that hers would be just the same, but maybe that she felt it shouldn't be like that (marriages in general, not her marriage to Robert in particular), but she accepted, because what other choice is there? I never got the impression she felt anything for Robert at all, otherwise Ned would have mentioned how his friend's feelings were returned. And if he never thinks ill of Rhaegar, that has to mention Lyanna had feelings for him, or at least agreed to go willingly.

I've read a theory saying that she didn't run away with him just to marry him, but that he might have tricked her into coming with him by promising to help her become warrior or something like that - or maybe that he genuinely wanted to help her with it, but things developed a different way. Who knows? But I do think she felt something for him, otherwise there's just too much that wouldn't make sense.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree with most of your post, except this. I never understood from Ned's recollections that she'd be heartbroken by Robert's behavior, I always took that scene to mean that Lyanna was perfectly aware of how marriages usually go in Westeros, and that despite all Robert's claims that hers would be just the same, but maybe that she felt it shouldn't be like that (marriages in general, not her marriage to Robert in particular), but she accepted, because what other choice is there? I never got the impression she felt anything for Robert at all, otherwise Ned would have mentioned how his friend's feelings were returned. And if he never thinks ill of Rhaegar, that has to mention Lyanna had feelings for him, or at least agreed to go willingly.

I've read a theory saying that she didn't run away with him just to marry him, but that he might have tricked her into coming with him by promising to help her become warrior or something like that - or maybe that he genuinely wanted to help her with it, but things developed a different way. Who knows? But I do think she felt something for him, otherwise there's just too much that wouldn't make sense.

I too have often thought that perhaps Rhaegar used some sort of deception, but it was stated that she was taken at swordpoint, and I have to think that Lyanna would not have put her fathers men in such a position if she genuninely wanted to go with Rhaegar.

If it was mutual, I would think there would be some sort of reaction by Lyanna telling her men to stand down, and Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, so I don't think even her Fathers men would risk assaulting the next King of Westeros, thus putting House Stark in a bad position if they were wrong about the Princes intentions, unless they sincerely felt Lyanna to be in danger which would be indicated by some reaction of fear, or surprise on her part.

On Robert, I am prepared to be surprised, because Ned does still express fondness for Robert primarily because he does still remember Lyanna, and if you notice, Ned doesn't actually remember Lyanna having feelings for Rhaegar either.

And I read that as she could potentially have feelings for Robert if she was disappointed to begin with. If she had no feelings for him, then she would be just like every other person in Westeros about to embark on a political alliance, and really not care so long as he didn't openly shame her, or put their childrens inheritance in danger.

I think with Ned, you can't assume that just because he doesn't think of Rhaegar in an overtly negative manner that it means he wasn't angry, or wasn't traumatized by those events.

I think he was, and he chooses not to think of those painful events, especially as Lyanna and Rhaegar died, so that door is closed until he goes to KL, and new traumas remind him of the old ones.

When Ned remembers Lyanna, he either thinks only of her, or he when thinks of Rhaegar he just thinks of him, but he doesn't necessarily pair them together.

Neds POV is also that he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years until it seems these negative events begin to take place.

These are just things that give me pause, and I could be entirely wrong, but thats why I voice these issues, so perhaps someone can give me a different perspective.

[azorahaiinthenorth]

Yes, I think it's always possible she would hate Jon anyway for risking her family's life, and that was probably one of the things behind Ned's reasoning for keeping that from her. But, though I'm not much of a Catelyn fan, I like to think she would have pitied him and tried to act as a replacement mother or something - I mean, look at his situation, most of his kin was dead, he had no idea who he was, and, even though he was the "rightful" king, his position as a "bastard" denied his inheriting absolutely anything. I prefer to believe she would have sympathized with his situation, but there's no guarantees that would happen.

Hi

Lurker here; first post (obviously ;) ). Just wanted to chime in on something here. Apologies if I am not the first to post this opinion or if it seems ridiculous. I have read through the many threads but do not recall if this has had an in-depth conversation, aside from the recent points by Lady Octarina and Bucky7588.

I too have been thinking over about Cat's potential reaction had Ned told her the truth (if that is in fact R+L=J).

Catelyn Stark's reactions have proven to be catalysts for very important events in the plot. She reacted to the knife, left Winterfell for KL to tell Ned. Still fuming about the knife, the twice-attempted murder of Bran, and her sister's "warning" of the Lannisters (not to mention the convenient info offered up by Baelish), she captured Tyrion, and then reacted to her own decision, again, hastily, taking him straight to her sister (good idea? I didn't think so even before meeting her crazy sister). So then the Lannister's react to actions out of honor for their own family name and hop into battle to make their point. Which then leads Jaime to confront Ned, Ned falsely (honorably) admits he told Cat to take Tyrion, battle ensues, and his efforts as the Hand goes even further downhill from there. Catelyn was one of my favorite characters in the first 3 books. But despite my sympathy for her plight, I couldn't help but notice how, if she just took a moment longer truly to consider how a Valyrian knife once owned by Petyr Baelish could end up in the hands of an assassin and what Tyrion would gain from killing Bran, she might have taken Littlefinger's information with a grain of salt and perhaps listened a little more to what Tyrion had to say. It is a shame really; all she wanted to do was protect and avenge the wrong done to her son. Yet her reactions (and gullibility), one could argue, led to the instability of the final days in Robert's reign and into the War of the Five Kings. By no means do I suggest she is truly at fault. My point, though, in bringing this up is that her reactions and actions have had a very important role to play in the lives of so many characters.

Now, given that, how she had been so influential in the events in Westeros, how she behaved toward Jon could be just as important. If R+L=J is true, and Ned had chosen to include his wife in the secret, her reaction and later actions regarding said secret could clue the rest of Westeros in about Jon's paternity. Very few would argue that Catelyn wasn't a fierce and loving mother. I believe she would have been sympathetic to him (as suggested by Lady Octarina, above) and actually treat him like a member of the family rather than a lesser member of the household (below Theon Greyjoy). In doing so, I think there would have been prying questions by visitors as to why Catelyn Stark would be so warm and understanding to her husband's "bastard son." With Ned not having told her the "truth", she despises Jon as a constant reminder of a supposed infidelity. No one in the world of ASOIAF would likely question her feelings on that matter as Ned's wife and the mother of his trueborn. If she treated him like her own, now, that might turn heads. The common belief in that world (it seems to me) is that the baseborn are lesser citizens and therefore should not be included in the nucleus of the family. Why would Catelyn be nice to Jon unless he were not her husband's baseborn but instead his nephew (or other family member or non-family member)? Wouldn't someone in Westeros call into question why she would be so understanding? People love gossip. Especially gossip among the court. This could be why there are so many different theories by various characters. They have it figured out from so-and-so that so-and-so is the son of so-and-so. I think Ned's "lie" to Catelyn protects Jon's paternity from too many questions by the fictional characters of ASOIAF, since the culture of the realm belittles the baseborn.

Ned has his faults though. We're to assume on the surface (literal mention within the text) that he has had an affair, but his real fault, to me, really, is his inability to lie effectively (therefore unable to play the Game) as he is such an honorable person. In telling Catelyn and everyone else that Jon is his son, he doesn't stick to his guns by consistently backing that up with the name/identity of the mother (whose own honor he would have to taint). Who is Wylla, but a wet-nurse; someone Robert would think little of other than what pleasures could be had with her. She is a safe presumption to provide Robert, who only brings up the topic of Ned's bastard's mother in terms of the pleasures of the affair and not as a chance for gossip. Chances are he wouldn't bring it up again, especially when Ned said to him he doesn't want to talk about it. Robert was self-absorbed in his own personal satisfactions; any gossip about Ned's secret affair would have been inconsequential to him, in my opinion, if he believed the mother was merely a wet-nurse Ned met while at away at war. To Catelyn, though, it is very important, as it affects her feeling of importance to Ned, as his wife and confidante. Despite her query, she is dutiful as a Tully and does not ask him again. But she resents Jon, as the wife of a major lord would be expected.

I think it's important to the plot and to the story that Cat be in the dark. It leaves more to the imagination and provides several characters with a richer characterization. It builds up Cat's sense of duty to her family (fighting fiercely for her own) and shows us her fallibility. With Ned, we hear (read) so much and yet so little. So much of his POV shows us examples of his loyalty and honor, and suggests to us that he too is fallible (the supposed affair; his failure to bend his honor for the sake of the Game). Jon is presented as a brooding, maternally neglected young man; an outsider who has grown in 5 wonderfully written books to become my favorite character, with compelling internal conflicts involving honor/duty (Night's Watch), family (Starks), leadership (Lord Commander), and mystery of otherworldly powers (Ghost, warging, contender for TPTWP/Azor Ahai). GRRM has created layers to the characters that make them feel like real people; very few of the POV's have left me feeling like a main character is one- or even two-dimensional. If we do learn that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I feel that Ned's lie to Catelyn is bittersweet, and from this reader's perspective, satisfying, as it simply adds one more layer to the complex fabric of his character.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hi, welcome. :)

Great first post, and you hit on the major issue with Catelyn that I think best explains, in part at least, why Ned never told her the truth.

[Ygrain]

@Alia of the knife

The swordpoint version, however, comes from Dany, who may simply be parroting a version that made it across the sea. And even if true, there might still be more to it - in one of the Rhaegar threads, there was a theory that the kidnapping might have been staged, to protect Lyanna's honour.

I believe it is quite natural that Ned doesn't spend much time thinking about Rhaegar - he was a complete stranger to him, and the guy because of whom it all happened. Yet, the absence of grudge is striking - Robert is over the top, after all those years, but I would expect at least something.

What I find weirdest is the Robert-Rhaegar comparison in terms of frequenting brothels - to compare the two, they would have to be on par level: husbands, or at least husband-lover. Definitely not a comparison to make about a kidnapper and rapist.

[Sapphire]

I too have often thought that perhaps Rhaegar used some sort of deception, but it was stated that she was taken at swordpoint, and I have to think that Lyanna would not have put her fathers men in such a position if she genuninely wanted to go with Rhaegar.

If it was mutual, I would think there would be some sort of reaction by Lyanna telling her men to stand down, and Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, so I don't think even her Fathers men would risk assaulting the next King of Westeros, thus putting House Stark in a bad position if they were wrong about the Princes intentions, unless they sincerely felt Lyanna to be in danger which would be indicated by some reaction of fear, or surprise on her part.

Isn't it Dany that speculates Rhaegar took Lyanna by sword point? She wasn't even born when this happened. Her likely source being Viserys, who was only a child then too. I forget, do we have any first hand info on Lyanna's disappearance or at least the popular story on how it went down (other than Robert's)?

[Eira Seren]

Probably been asked before but....Do we have any knowledge of any previous Targ/Stark matings?

so far the only info we have on the stark side has been kings of the north, not much on the female ancestors. grrm has said if it ever becomes important we will find out. always assumed there would be more connection with the older houses in the north, greenseers, etc. a flint is mentioned. but do wonder. . . surely there have been some? they had to secure the north after torrhen submitted rule (and the starks are the wardens of the north, an important position). wouldn't a few marriages be a great way to continue to broker that fealty? makes me wonder if there is more to R+L than just a kidnapping or love story

[Alia of the knife]

Isn't it Dany that speculates Rhaegar took Lyanna by sword point? She wasn't even born when this happened. Her likely source being Viserys, who was only a child then too. I forget, do we have any first hand info on Lyanna's disappearance or at least the popular story on how it went down (other than Robert's)?

I think Viserys is the speculation, but Dany misconstrues so much that she hears, that I could see her viewing that event through a romantic prism, where in reality it may not have been.

@Alia of the knife

The swordpoint version, however, comes from Dany, who may simply be parroting a version that made it across the sea. And even if true, there might still be more to it - in one of the Rhaegar threads, there was a theory that the kidnapping might have been staged, to protect Lyanna's honour.

I believe it is quite natural that Ned doesn't spend much time thinking about Rhaegar - he was a complete stranger to him, and the guy because of whom it all happened. Yet, the absence of grudge is striking - Robert is over the top, after all those years, but I would expect at least something.

What I find weirdest is the Robert-Rhaegar comparison in terms of frequenting brothels - to compare the two, they would have to be on par level: husbands, or at least husband-lover. Definitely not a comparison to make about a kidnapper and rapist.

Those are valid points, as I said to Sapphire, Dany misconstrues and misinterprets alot that she hears, that I'm afraid the truth is really the opposite of what she's actually told, because I think Rhaegar is being set up way too high on a pedastal, that the story will likely deconstruct him, and bring him down a bit.

I think he was a good man essentially, but with all the bad characters that have their moments of redemption, I don't think it's ouside the realm of possibility that a good character ends up doing something selfish.

Personally I want them to have been in love despite all the bad that happened after, and that they had at least a year of happiness together, but I'm afraid to jump in with both feet on that storyline, so I just approach it with caution. :worried:

[Lady Octarina]

On Robert, I am prepared to be surprised, because Ned does still express fondness for Robert primarily because he does still remember Lyanna, and if you notice, Ned doesn't actually remember Lyanna having feelings for Rhaegar either.

And I read that as she could potentially have feelings for Robert if she was disappointed to begin with. If she had no feelings for him, then she would be just like every other person in Westeros about to embark on a political alliance, and really not care so long as he didn't openly shame her, or put their childrens inheritance in danger.

I still think her disappointment was over the institution and having to go along with the farce, not over her feelings for Robert specifically lol But that might just be because I despise Robert to such an extent that I really can't believe someone like Lyanna would fall for him. Anyway, five or ten years more and we'll learn the truth on this matter. :cool4:

And the taking her at swordpoint... well, it could always mean she ran away with Rhaegar and, when her father's men went after her, Rhaegar's men fought them, not necessarily with R+L watching the fight.

And I doubt Ned doesn't reflect on Rhaegar over the years; it would be nearly impossible with that constant reminder of whatever Lyanna's story with him was under his roof.