R+L = J v. 24

[The guy from the Vale]

Honour is valued highly among all the Starks of the current generation - but they are all Ned's kids (at least socially), so they pretty much inherited his honour code. Since Ned was fostered at the Eyrie, though, and with House Arryn well-known for their sense of honour (hell, it's even in their motto), I think Ned's code stems from his time in the Vale and not his family.

Indeed, we have indications that Brandon had no interest in other people's honour whatsoever - he was much closer to Robert Baratheon than Robb Stark in his behaviour towards Barbrey Ryswell (later Lady Dustin), and depending on what exactly happened to Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, perhaps not for honour, either.

Now we know little about Lyanna, but just assuming that all the Starks shared Ned's honour code is, at best, premature.

[Dragonfish]

Yes, I have. (I have read all books once and am currently rereading all of them - have just reached AFfC). I admit I did not think of Robb's broken engagement - maybe because the rules applying for men and for women are so different in Westeros, but then also, because for me in the end this broken engagement only is a proof how honourbound those Starks are - if not, Robb could simply have walked out on Jeyne and marry the next Frey girl. But he did not - he tried to act as honorable as possible once the fault made. This indicates strongly for me that the value of honour is considered high among all Starks.

Not really. It only proves that Robb has internalized Ned's sense of honor. It doesn't demonstrate that all Starks have been like Ned. In fact, we hear from Ned's own mouth that Lyanna was a lot like Arya, who herself chafes at the restrictions placed on her for being female, and rejects the notion that she'll be made to marry to some highborn lord. Ned also states that Lyanna's "wolf's blood" led her to an early grave, which, as Ygrain pointed out, implies that she is complicit in her own downfall. I cannot for the life of me imagine would Ned would say something like this if Lyanna was kidnapped and raped.

When Ned mentally compares Rhaegar to Robert to come to the conclusion that Rhaegar would probably not have frequented brothels, it could as easily mean that Rhaegar just took what he wanted and was not content with low born whores.

The issue here is not whether or not Rhaegar actually partronized prostitutes. The issue is why Ned would assume Rhaegar probably did not visit brothels. Ned does not actually know if Rhaegar did or not, he simply guesses that he probably did not, based on what he knows of Rhaegar's character. And if Rhaegar did rape Lyanna, I have a hard time imagining Ned assuming he probably did not visit brothels. The conclusion does not really follow from its premise, at least not from the perspective of someone who has an emotional connection to the apparent victim.

[Ramona]

Count me among the multitudes who missed R + L = J the first time around. I spotted it on the Intertwitwebs, re-read the books, especially AGOT, and now I'm totally a believer. Ned's fragments of memories/associations/dreams, which show us tantalizing glimpses in the mind of a PRIMARY source for What Really Happened, are a bit selectively Faulkneresque on Martin's part, but probably as good a way as any to leave a few clues without totally giving it away....

"Promise, me Ned," she whispered. "I don't care about all this prophecy crap that Rhaegar keeps prattling on about, just promise me you won't ever tell anybody that my son is a Targaryen, or else that tool best friend of yours will kill him."

Absolutely, I never thought of this, but once read of it here, knew it was absolutely the case.

I would be amazed if R+L = J was not true. Everything about this theory makes sense.

But this does not mean Jon will be king. I have no idea who will rule in the end. Jon is a good candidate, but maybe three Targareyens will rule, or none of them.

I find the idea that Dany will not return to Westeros implausible in the extreme. I find the idea that Dany, Jon and Aegon will ride the three dragons against the Others the most plausible. They will need the obsidian (I forget what it is called right now) from Stannis to begin their defense, but in the end they will need the dragons to defeat the Others.

Who rules in the Spring is going to be far less important than who lives till Spring. That will tell the difference.

[Milcov]

This may well have been noticed before but I haven't seen it.

Rhaegar wants 3 children

Elia can't have anymore children or she'll die in child birth

Rhaegar is fond of Elia

Rhaegar loves Lyanna

Rhaegar has a child with Lyanna

Lyanna dies in child birth

He chose the (healthy) woman he loved to have a child with so that his first wife who he is fond of doesn't die in child birth, and the woman he loves (who was selected to avoid death in childbirth) dies in childbirth.

Irony?

I could be way off base with several assumptions there and I apologise for that if I am.

[Elric the White Wolf]

Hi everyone, love reading this thread. The posts are always excellent. A few posts were discussing the psychological motivations behind R+L in terms of their motivation to elope essentially (assuming that Lyanna is a willing participant), and the idea that this act then resulted in catastrophe. I think it is a great point that this act --rash in nature, but not meant to be evil -- has connections to tragedy (Shakespeare in particular). Romeo and Juliet rashly run off and get married despite the famous ongoing tensions between the Montagues and Capulets. And then, as so often happens in Shakepeare's tragedies, an act that would have been forgiven or resolved in the comedies instead inspires a catastrophic set of reactions that to the original movers would/could not have been entirely obvious or anticipated. Juliet was also about to be married off to Paris, her parents' choice, and she rebels. I am thinking out loud here, please forgive, but it reminds me of Lyanna and Robert.

In a way I imagine Rhaegar responding to Lyanna in the way that Romeo (previously connected to Rosalind, sort of like Elia) responded to Juliet -- that is, he never knew what love truly meant until he saw her face, and then they shared a conversation that changed the world. And we know how well the R&J story works out for all parties. So there is the "grand romance" aspect to R+L, but I have to say that if the theory holds it lends a beauty and tragedy to Jon's personal story as well as the political history of Westeros -that this act of love results in such catastrophe.

[Ramona]

Forgive me. As a newbie, I have posted a few times in illogical places and am therefore repeating myself.

Somewhere else, I posted that the idea that R wed L after Elia dies was compelling. However, after checking as much as possible to try and determine the actual chronology, it does not seem possible that Elia dies before Rhaegar. I have no idea if a second marriage between R and L would have been possible by the standards of the time and place; however, whether Jon is a bastard is secondary to the idea that he is R and L's child. I had not picked up on this while reading the books, but once I saw the idea and the justification for it here and elsewhere, I cannot read the series any other way. Lyanna may have genuinely cared for Robert but also realized he was not good husband material. Then she met Rhaegar and it didn't matter anymore. The idea that Rhaegar raped her just doesn't wash. Ned would have had revealed that he believed that in some strong ways. He never does. Ned was trapped between his friend and his sister on the one hand and the fate of the kingdom on the other. He protects Jon at the cost of his own reputation. Ned was in a lose/lose situation. No matter what he does, tragedy of some sort will result, so he hid as much as he could given that he was honor bound to protect Jon's life and the fate of the kingdom.

However, since Ned is a black/white thinker, he cannot internally resolve these conflicts. Jon is an innocent but his beloved friend Robert would murder him out of jealous rage and to protect his kingship. Knowledge of Jon's real parentage threatens the stability of the entire kingdom, but since Jon is key to the survival of Westeros (although Ned does not know this), he must survive.

I have just confirmed that GRRM has stated that there must be three dragon riders, but that all three do not have to be Targareyen.

For me, this strongly suggests that Dany, Jon and Bran will ride Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal respectively.

Bran will warg into Rhaegal, who is green, echoing the green seer whose status Bran inherits.

Jon will ride/warg Viserion, the white dragon, echoing Ghost.

Jon's ability to ride Viserion will legitimate his evental claim to be Targareyn although this will not lead to his taking the throne.

If Dany and Jon are at odds at some point, this will be resolved. Perhaps this is Tyrion's ultimate role. Remember he likes Jon. He may convince Dany that he is a ally, not a threat and vice versa, assuming Tyrion ever really makes it to Dany's side/court.

The many visions that Bran has concerning flying high have to be more than his warging into a crow. He wargs into Rhaegal.

The dragons will prove to be the only way to decisively defeat the Others. This is what Dany was born for, the reason she is the mother of dragons. The dragons will provide the ultimate weapon against the others.. Dragons will then enter the mythology of Westeros as ultimate saviors.

Wherther Targareyns rule will be unimportant. It will be seen that they were meant to be key to saving humans from the Others. Targareyns will be seen to be flawed but truly heroic leaders.

[Alia of the knife]

This may well have been noticed before but I haven't seen it.

Rhaegar wants 3 children

Elia can't have anymore children or she'll die in child birth

Rhaegar is fond of Elia

Rhaegar loves Lyanna

Rhaegar has a child with Lyanna

Lyanna dies in child birth

He chose the (healthy) woman he loved to have a child with so that his first wife who he is fond of doesn't die in child birth, and the woman he loves (who was selected to avoid death in childbirth) dies in childbirth.

Irony?

I could be way off base with several assumptions there and I apologise for that if I am.

I think irony is a noticiable theme running through this work.

But, I think I differ a little with you about Rhaegar not wanting Elia to die in childbirth,(not that he would have wanted her to of course, but birthing was, and still is risky).

That was a fate that all women shared, not just Elia.

Setting prophesy aside, it was both their duties to provide the realm with a secure line of succession, so I think it's possible her fragile health put a strain on both of them in this regard.

If I guess Rhaenys birth in correlation with their marriage, it was a couple of years into the marriage before they had her, which in that time, that place, and given the expectations of an heir, may have been fairly alarming. She may have even had episodes of miscarrying.

It's not like today when modern couples marry and make a decision not to have children for a couple of years, because they want "together" time. In those days, if the bride became pregnant on the wedding/bedding night, that was even better.

So again, I speculate that by the time Lyanna came around while their marriage may have been amicable, it probably was not a happy one.

And, I got the impression that the Maesters told Rhaegar "that she would bare no more children." Not, "if she has anymore children it will kill her."

I could be wrong, but that was my take.

Like you however, I did notice the irony in that Rhaegar would still have lost the woman he loved, even if he'd been victorious.

Perhaps if she'd been at KL with better conditions she may have lived, but, Rhaegars winning would not have changed the fact she was far away in the TOJ with just a midwife and KG.

To me, they are saying she can't have children, (because Aegons birth injured her in some way),

[Dragonfish]

Forgive me. As a newbie, I have posted a few times in illogical places and am therefore repeating myself.

Somewhere else, I posted that the idea that R wed L after Elia dies was compelling. However, after checking as much as possible to try and determine the actual chronology, it does not seem possible that Elia dies before Rhaegar. I have no idea if a second marriage between R and L would have been possible by the standards of the time and place; [...]

The theory goes that Rhaegar and Lyanna married polygamously, which Targaryens used to do early in their reign.

[Alia of the knife]

Hi everyone, love reading this thread. The posts are always excellent. A few posts were discussing the psychological motivations behind R+L in terms of their motivation to elope essentially (assuming that Lyanna is a willing participant), and the idea that this act then resulted in catastrophe. I think it is a great point that this act --rash in nature, but not meant to be evil -- has connections to tragedy (Shakespeare in particular). Romeo and Juliet rashly run off and get married despite the famous ongoing tensions between the Montagues and Capulets. And then, as so often happens in Shakepeare's tragedies, an act that would have been forgiven or resolved in the comedies instead inspires a catastrophic set of reactions that to the original movers would/could not have been entirely obvious or anticipated. Juliet was also about to be married off to Paris, her parents' choice, and she rebels. I am thinking out loud here, please forgive, but it reminds me of Lyanna and Robert.

In a way I imagine Rhaegar responding to Lyanna in the way that Romeo (previously connected to Rosalind, sort of like Elia) responded to Juliet -- that is, he never knew what love truly meant until he saw her face, and then they shared a conversation that changed the world. And we know how well the R&J story works out for all parties. So there is the "grand romance" aspect to R+L, but I have to say that if the theory holds it lends a beauty and tragedy to Jon's personal story as well as the political history of Westeros -that this act of love results in such catastrophe.

I think you summed it up beautifully.

As in real life, very few things are tied up in a neat little bow.

You can love, and know it's not right in the sense of the people you ultimately hurt because of it, (though I actually don't hold that against people in a time and place where they don't marry for love, choice, but for duty).

The thing I see differently about the aspect of a "rash," impulsive act is Rhaegars age.

While I totally agree their love is on par with "Romeo and Juliet," I think if it were Lyanna and say Jaimie Lannister, it would feel more like young, impulsive love.

He is a mature, grown man of 23/24- well beyond the age of what is considered "young," so I think his was more of an act of desperate grab for happiness, (I think Rhaegar was the one who gave the TOJ it's name), as much for prophesy and in Rhaegars case, they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I have often heard the impact that Rhaegar had on Lyanna, but, I would point out the impact Lyanna had on Rhaegar.

He was a romantic, which probably led him to believe certain things, and he most likely had very high ideals about how he wanted his life and Kingdom to be.

And Lyanna Stark, a beautiful "warrior" Maiden from the mythos of the North, with a sense of justice and honor, with no heart for subterfuge, (which he would be surrounded with at Court), would probably seem to him like she stepped from the pages of the books he read as a child.

"and he never knew what true love was until he saw her face..."

[Ramona]

The theory goes that Rhaegar and Lyanna married polygamously, which Targaryens used to do early in their reign.

Got it. And see before that people were suggesting this as a possibility. If you are going to marry sister and brother, it is a good idea to have another spouse to produce more genetically viable offspring.

In any case, I don't think Jon's bastard status is going to matter at all in the long run although he would never see it that way.

[corbon]

I have often heard the impact that Rhaegar had on Lyanna, but, I would point out the impact Lyanna had on Rhaeger.

He was a romantic, which probably led him to believe certain things, and he most likely had very high ideals about how he wanted his life and Kingdom to be.

And Lyanna Stark, a beautiful "warrior" Maiden from the mythos of the North, with a sense of justice and honor, with no heart for subterfuge, (which he would be surrounded with at Court), would probably seem to him like she stepped from the pages of the books he read as a child.

"and he never knew what true love was until he saw her face..."

Nicely postulated.

[Alia of the knife]

Nicely postulated.

Thank you. :)

[Ygrain]

I think Rhaegar was the one who gave the TOJ it's name

Right. Which, I think, is another hint that it can't have been rape - calling a place where you hold a kidnapped and raped girl "Tower of Joy" would be unbelievably cynical.

When Ned mentally compares Rhaegar to Robert to come to the conclusion that Rhaegar would probably not have frequented brothels, it could as easily mean that Rhaegar just took what he wanted and was not content with low born whores.

I don't think this is what the context implies - Ned mightily disapproves of Robert's whoring and Rhaegar is the one who comes out better from the comparison.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think this is what the context implies - Ned mightily disapproves of Robert's whoring and Rhaegar is the one who comes out better from the comparison.

That's how I read it — that Rhaegar was too honorable, well behaved, classy, responsible, or however you want to call it to go whoring.

[LuisDantas]

A wild montage:

1. We know that Elia Martell, Rhaegar's wife, had poor health and couldn't have further children after Rhaenys and Aegon.

2. To the best of our knowledge, Rhaenys was killed by Amory Lorch during the sack of King's Landing in 282 AL, while her brother and mother were killed separately by Gregor Clegane at much the same time. Or, perhaps, a stand-in was killed in Aegon's place.

3. We have little to no evidence on how Elia Martell felt about Lyanna Stark, despite being certain that many people noticed that Rhaegar chose Lyanna as Queen of Beauty at the Harrenhal Tourney over his own wife - which ought to have made people attentive to the matter.

4. Far as we know, Ned went to the Tower of Joy at Dorne to rescue Lyanna and succeeded, but just barely in time to see her die and obtain a painful, secretive promise of some sort from him. A promise that he has been keeping very seriously ever since and that seems to involve sustained lies and Jon.

I don't believe Elia Martell was much surprised or bothered by the choice of Queen of Beauty, or else we would have learned of that already. It just occurred to me that I find it too much of a coincidence that Elia was Rhaegar's wife and there is strong speculation that Lyanna might have been as well, while Elia had poor health related to having children, yet it was Lyanna that apparently died from childbirth. Oh, and Elia was at the nursery when Gregor killed her and Aegon, right?

So what if somehow it wasn't Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, but rather Elia Martell? And it was Lyanna Stark who was at the nursery with Aegon? Maybe somehow instead of R+L=J we have R+E=J and perhaps R+L=A (and maybe R)?

But wait, we know that Jon does not resemble either Rhaegar nor Elia. He has a distinctive Stark look.

It puzzled me as well. Then I remembered that so many people think Warging is possible on people beyond what we know to have happened in Bran's experience. And the current generation of Starks are all Wargs. Soooo....

What it somehow, perhaps by warging, it turned out that Elia and Lyanna switched bodies?

That would make Jon biologically a Stark yet Elia's son. And it would make Gregor the killer of Lyanna Stark, which would give Ned a good reason to act so decisively when he learned of his rampage on the Riverlands, as well as a very good reason to keep maximum secrecy about Jon's mother yet remain close to him. He is not only protecting Jon from Robert and others, he is also keeping it a secret that Warging is possible among the Starks, as well as trying to keep the realm from renewed tensions.

It would also explain Rhaegar's choice of Queen of Beauty, although it was still a foolish act.

I have a gut feeling that it may also lend the idea that Aegon VI is legit some added credibility, but I can't yet figure out why or how.

[RoamingRonin]

I believe Lyanna wanted Ned to promise her that he wouldn't tell Robert and the realm the truth: that she willingly ran away with Rhaegar. That things quickly escalated beyond their control with the deaths of their brother and father. And that Robert's Rebellion was really their fault. Perhaps Lyanna DID die in child birth but I don't think the child was Jon or ever lived. Maybe it was a premature birth... was there enough time for Lyanna to carry a child to term? Could Ned realistically leave the tower with his sister's body and a child unnoticed?

I think the third dragon is Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers/aka. the 3 Eyed Crow. He is technically a Targaryen. Now that Maester Aemon is dead, that leaves Bloodraven, Dany and Aegon as the three last dragons.

[Night Gathers]

Haven't been too deep in the discussion here so I have a question which might be obvious, but I don't seem to get it.

We all know that the reason Ned understood that Joffrey and the other incest children were Jaime's and Cersei's because of their hair color. So my simple question is, why does Jon have black hair and not even slightly blonde if his father's really Rhaegar? To get the silver hair, must both your parents be Targaryens in Westeros?

Would appreciate an understandable answer.

[The guy from the Vale]

The hair color thing with Cersei's kids was only what tipped Ned off, there were other hints (among them, who wasn't hunting when Bran fell out the window, and probably the twin's behaviour when together).

There are examples of Targaryens with dark hair: Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel and Jon's half-sister Rhaenys come to mind.

[lojzelote]

Crackpot time! :)

I´m pretty sure that Elia and/or Lyanna would have gone insane if this was the case. To skinchange into human being must be very hard, as Varamyr´s Prologue proved. Varamyr was very skilled skinchanger, but he failed to overpower the mind of an old, exhausted woman. How could Elia - who had not a one drop of the blood the First Men (as far as we know) stay for long period of time in Lyanna´s body? I bet that even a greenseer would have a problem with it. Also, wouldn´t anybody notice their changed behaviour? From the little information we have about them, Lyanna was very lively and "wild", while Elia was very sweet and gracious. Those characteristics aren´t uncompatible, but one imagines two completely different women when he hears them.

Imho:

I suppose that Elia wasn´t exactly thrilled when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, but I suspect that he told her beforehands that he found out that Lyanna is the Knight of Laughing Tree (speculation) and he wants to show his appretiation for her bravery this way, since he couldn´t do so openly. It would still embarass Elia in eyes of other people, but she would know her husband´s real reasons for it.

[Alia of the knife]

A wild montage:

1. We know that Elia Martell, Rhaegar's wife, had poor health and couldn't have further children after Rhaenys and Aegon.

2. To the best of our knowledge, Rhaenys was killed by Amory Lorch during the sack of King's Landing in 282 AL, while her brother and mother were killed separately by Gregor Clegane at much the same time. Or, perhaps, a stand-in was killed in Aegon's place.

3. We have little to no evidence on how Elia Martell felt about Lyanna Stark, despite being certain that many people noticed that Rhaegar chose Lyanna as Queen of Beauty at the Harrenhal Tourney over his own wife - which ought to have made people attentive to the matter.

4. Far as we know, Ned went to the Tower of Joy at Dorne to rescue Lyanna and succeeded, but just barely in time to see her die and obtain a painful, secretive promise of some sort from him. A promise that he has been keeping very seriously ever since and that seems to involve sustained lies and Jon.

I don't believe Elia Martell was much surprised or bothered by the choice of Queen of Beauty, or else we would have learned of that already. It just occurred to me that I find it too much of a coincidence that Elia was Rhaegar's wife and there is strong speculation that Lyanna might have been as well, while Elia had poor health related to having children, yet it was Lyanna that apparently died from childbirth. Oh, and Elia was at the nursery when Gregor killed her and Aegon, right?

So what if somehow it wasn't Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, but rather Elia Martell? And it was Lyanna Stark who was at the nursery with Aegon? Maybe somehow instead of R+L=J we have R+E=J and perhaps R+L=A (and maybe R)?

But wait, we know that Jon does not resemble either Rhaegar nor Elia. He has a distinctive Stark look.

It puzzled me as well. Then I remembered that so many people think Warging is possible on people beyond what we know to have happened in Bran's experience. And the current generation of Starks are all Wargs. Soooo....

What it somehow, perhaps by warging, it turned out that Elia and Lyanna switched bodies?

That would make Jon biologically a Stark yet Elia's son. And it would make Gregor the killer of Lyanna Stark, which would give Ned a good reason to act so decisively when he learned of his rampage on the Riverlands, as well as a very good reason to keep maximum secrecy about Jon's mother yet remain close to him. He is not only protecting Jon from Robert and others, he is also keeping it a secret that Warging is possible among the Starks, as well as trying to keep the realm from renewed tensions.

It would also explain Rhaegar's choice of Queen of Beauty, although it was still a foolish act.

I have a gut feeling that it may also lend the idea that Aegon VI is legit some added credibility, but I can't yet figure out why or how.

I think warging into another Human is more complicated, if not a dark violation of that ability.

Notice Bran and Hodar, on some level simple Hodar is resistant.

We also don't know to what extent the Starks themselves are aware of this ability and what they are, (though there seems to be those myths surrounding the Starks that might have even spooked the Targaryens, thus they just left them alone in the Norh so long as they remained loyal).

Viserys: they don't mate with other beasts, (I know thats an overall statement regarding the symbolism of the Sigils, but perhaps another double entendre.' by Martin).

Jon the Fiddler to Dunk: (paraphrasing), "you don't want to go North, the forests are filled with wolves."

If the Starks knew what they were, it seems they should have honed those abilities in a more diciplined way.

But, we see how even the Starks react to much of Nans stories, which is to dismiss them, so they seem largely unaware, accept for Bran who tends to have a mind that works more like Bloodravens.