[BOOK/TV SPOILERS] TWOP n00bs Thread II

[protar]

These guys are already shipping Jaime and Brienne!

[protar]

I'm friggin' dying.

:bowdown:

Oh God, I hope we get the Zombear in season 3.

And also, on LF:

"If you recall Ros's exit from Winterfell last season and her quick appearance in King's Landing, perhaps Ros is the best person to take him out seeing as they can both teleport."

[PrinceRhaegar]

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[Peasant Rebel Leader]

This. Even, the speculation that Jaqen=Syrio, lol... an argument that I must say I spent many months and much blood, sweat and tears arguing back and forth on this board--its funny, looking back when this board was just about books, before the HBO series was even thought of--there must be 100s of pages of arguments that Jaqen is/isn't Syrio. And the Unsullied came to that same argument after watching a tv series that never even hinted at such a thing! Plus, they're pretty clear that R+L=J, and that's an argument that consumed many thousands of posts here, long before the series. I'm impressed.

I do agree, it's amazing how much they get. But on the other hand, it's much easier with a TV show, because as a visual medium, they have to focus or not focus on things (literally with the camera I mean) and the show only has so many minutes to tell its story. That's why most characters on TV cut through the nonsense and talk more clearly and just the fact, that they have a named character means that they chose to pay an actor for the role. Thus it follows that he has some important role.

While for example the Night's Watch finding the treasure with the horns and dragonglass was a sidenote in the books as wolves tend to dig up things, they couldn't have Ghost dig it up for the night's watch as CGI was too complicated and expensive for that. Instead, the scene is the only one from the Fist in that episode = it has to mean something.

Same with Sirio and Jaqen. It's pretty standard on TV to have characters in disguise. And NOT showing someone's death is often a sign that they might want to bring him back. It's also clear that if Arya's story wants to have a character impact, it's better not to make it too complex by her having three or four mentor figures (although that is how it will turn out). The show also downplayed the importance of Arya's sacrifice (being scared of Rorge and Biter, but actually freeing them then inside (!) a burning stable and being the only one of the Kids to do that), so it's not clear to them why Jaqen has such an attachment to Arya (and how he knows her last name).

So basically: TV shows = less smoke screen by having less clues = all clues are important (what's that trope called again?). And with the amount of detail that they look at the show , I'm not surprised they got so much (but some things are also plainly wrong !).

I do not understand btw. why they chose to think of basic background info provided by HBO on their website as spoilers. You can't for example show a map inside the show, that would be a waste of screentime. And it's not like a show such as Mad Men where we do know how the Sixties were like or what distances there are in New York. Westeros is a made up world, some background info is best served separately. I feel it's a bit too zealous. But it's an interesting topic to discuss, how much a tv show has to be self-explaining in today's world.

[protar]

@Peasant Rebel Leader: I believe that trope is called the law of conservation of detail.

[Independent George]

I do not understand btw. why they chose to think of basic background info provided by HBO on their website as spoilers. You can't for example show a map inside the show, that would be a waste of screentime. And it's not like a show such as Mad Men where we do know how the Sixties were like or what distances there are in New York. Westeros is a made up world, some background info is best served separately. I feel it's a bit too zealous. But it's an interesting topic to discuss, how much a tv show has to be self-explaining in today's world.

I understand it, and I agree with them. Every time you need to reference an external source to understand this bit of backstory or that bit of the geneologies, is a failure in my eyes. This is different than re-watching and taking notes - everything we learn has to be told entirely from what's on screen. Mabe spoilers aren't the right word, but they shouldn't have to read about Robert's Rebellion on the HBO website; the details should be gradually introduced on the show.

The real difficulty of this show is that so much of the 'mysteries' of the books stems from the unreliable narrator, which just does not translate well to the omniscient observer that the camera represents. There are too many characters to use the Rashomon technique, so that leaves you with cutting out just enough details to obscure some secrets without breaking the story. For example, I would have preferred that if they weren't going to reveal who sacked Winterfell, they should have at least made it obvious that Maester Luwin doesn't know, either. It has to work on a meta-level where the viewer knows what he doesn't know.

It's a very difficult balance to strike, which is why so much of the purist commentary drives me nuts. You can always add more pages to a book (and many would argue GRRM has in fact added too many in FFC/DWD), but a television show demands a very tightly controlled distribution of resources. Adding a line in one place necessarily takes away a line elsewhere. Sometimes, the changes work, sometimes they don't, but it's absolutely necessary that it be done.

The great thing about the unsullied thread is that they watch the show the way we read the books.

[iheartseverus]

Guess some of them are not all that fond of Lord Baelish! :P

RE: Sansa -- have we seen Varys interact with Sansa yet? He might have an interest in keeping her from harm, and would certainly be more trustworthy (to me) than Littlefucker.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

@Independent George I do agree with your later post, but I do think you get me wrong in the first half. I'm not advocating that one needs to go to the website to understand the show. That would be bad because only a small percentage of viewers would ever do that. But there's enhancing information that can be explained via website maps or BluRay Extras which don't spoil the tv show at all.

Take for example Robb's Western Campaign this season. It' perfectly made clear in the show that a) Robb is winning battles while B) Tywin sits in his castle and gets increasingly angry. It might also be said somewhere (I'm actually not quite sure atm) that c) Robb is advancing into the West.

That's all you need to know, condensed info. But they do namedrop locations (Silverhill, the Crag, Riverrun), and as I am not a native Westerosi, I cannot relate to that. So I do prefer to look it up as I do like maps and geography and stuff. I still won't be able to form a battle map, but I don't need to. I'm just interested. Does that spoil anything for me? I just don't get their zero-tolerance policy on those kind of spoilers...

Or the example of the names of the seven gods. How is that information going to be relevant later on? That's just worldbuilding and they had to wait 2 seasons to know it. It's stuff like this that we would know if the show was set in our world (but would never be sure either as shows tend to change some things if they need to) which make the show more interesting (to me).

But of course, the line between these two types of knowledge is increasingly blurry... This whole discussion would probably better fit in another thread though ;)

@iheartseverus (what a name... ;)) Well, Littlefinger is really creepy in the show. But they still seem to trust Varys despite of his talk with Illyrio last season? hmm...

I do like that they are now debating if the Giant Ice Spiders TM are real or not. The show should really have Varys mix in Krakens when he talked about the rumours of Dragons in the East.

[iheartseverus]

Peasant Rebel Leader (what a name...:P) Some of the Unsullied at TWoP do refer to maps and other enhancing materials, but they've made a collective decision not to include such material in the thread. Information in that thread is comprised of knowledge gleaned within the 4 walls of the episode, period. And I believe I understand their reasoning--once extraneous material is allowed into the thread, mistakes will happen. New people join into that thread all the time and over time, I've seen perfectly innocent mistakes by newbies in the thread who haven't read the books, but who bring in information from other sources. 'Wiki says...' Or, 'during an interview with x-actor, he mentioned that next season, he's...' (Blam! He's alive til next season?? There goes that spitball). It becomes like introducing a little piece of kudzu into your flower garden, quickly impossible to control.

Beyond that, however, if I read them correctly, their enjoyment is in ferreting out motivations, meanings, clues--gleaning bits and scraps, trying to fit them together like pieces of a puzzle and discussing it all amongst themselves, back and forth, back and forth, whooping with pleasure when somebody there got it right, laughing amongst themselves when a particular spitball turned out to be far afield. Your example about the names of The Seven, for instance. Back in season 1, after Bran was pushed from the tower, Cersei told Catelyn that she would pray to the Mother for Bran. That sparked a good hefty discussion. When Ned yelled 'Baelor' at Yoren,some figured that Baelor might be one of The Seven, but others disagreed because 'the Mother' is a symbolic representation, whereas Baelor is apparently a name of an invididual. Had they permitted official outside material to be brought into the thread, none of those discussions would have happened. They'd simply look it up, announce that The Seven are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. Over and done. They don't want to be told who The Seven are, they want to work it out, talk about it, pick at clues, whoop or groan when they're right or wrong. My guess is they're the kind of folks who love jigsaw puzzles, those monster 1,000 piece things that don't come with a photo of the completed puzzle. The kind where you have to put two or three or fiveor fifty of those thousand pieces together and then really struggle to work out where this is taking you, where its going to end up. My two cents.

And I agree with you, this is an interesting discussion, but it needs to take place elsewhere. Perhaps you want to start a new thread?

:cheers:

[Guest]

They're really giving Sansa a hard time for not leaving with the Hound. I hope they don't write her off as stupid because she's one of the more interesting characters on the show. I think that not being in Sansa's head, and seeing it play out like it did on screen, transforms the scene quite a bit. He also wasn't drunk/scary enough, and saving her from rape made him look like a nice guy.

Curiosity about why Tyrion was so readily tossed aside makes me think that the show has not conveyed Westeros' and his family's disgust at his dwarfism very well. Not at all, actually. Which is really baffling. Are the writers afraid to "go there"?

[BlackTalon]

Entirely possible.

Remember the scene in Tywin´s tent where Tyrion is told by his father that he will be acting as hand of the king? In the book Tyrion hated him for it because to him it meant that his father had written off Jaime, in the show it came across as a sign of trust, affection and respect, two almost totally opposed reactions.

Also, so far Jaime has been treated almost more harshly in the show than Tyrion was - remember how Tywin took down Jaime in the deer skinning scene?

It is not surprising that show viewers get a conflicting and misleading image of the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. And nobody can defend that by saying "the show is not the book" because they retained the story of how Tywin had Tyrion´s wife gangraped. That is by far the most horrific thing Tywin has ever done to Tyrion, is does not make much sense to keep that and alter other, less awful scenes.

[Arkash]

I agree about Rakharo having a personality and development. But the dude who was with Dany and Jorah when they went to the House of the Undying was Kovarro, apparently the only surviving Dothraki brave enough to venture there, and he won me over when the other two went charging up the steps and he hesitated for a moment, clearly scared shitless by all the hocus pocus, and then was like, 'oh, to hell with it' and followed them anyway. He wasn't just a nameless random nobody. :)

To be honest, I really like Kovarro too, and that since the garden party! =D

[iheartseverus]

HA! Here's one spitball that'll be dried up and withered away into dust before it ever comes true!!

So why didn't Dany just head straight back to her good friend Illyrio when she was friendless and starving? Maybe they were too far from Pentos by then. Anyway, I don't think she is headed there now: Jorah is buying her a ship and they are sailing for Westeros!

[Zizoz]

Sansa's decision not to leave with the Hound also made more sense in the books because Dontos had already promised to take her home, which I understand didn't happen in the show.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Well, they were sailing for Westeros, weren't they? or at least Pentos? something in the West at least.

It's not their fault that Dany thought those beach locations on Slaver's Bay would be prime real estate. Or something ;)

[jlk7e]

Entirely possible.

Remember the scene in Tywin´s tent where Tyrion is told by his father that he will be acting as hand of the king? In the book Tyrion hated him for it because to him it meant that his father had written off Jaime, in the show it came across as a sign of trust, affection and respect, two almost totally opposed reactions.

Also, so far Jaime has been treated almost more harshly in the show than Tyrion was - remember how Tywin took down Jaime in the deer skinning scene?

It is not surprising that show viewers get a conflicting and misleading image of the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. And nobody can defend that by saying "the show is not the book" because they retained the story of how Tywin had Tyrion´s wife gangraped. That is by far the most horrific thing Tywin has ever done to Tyrion, is does not make much sense to keep that and alter other, less awful scenes.

But isn't Tyrion just jumping to assume the worst about his father in the book? For instance, can anyone really argue with any of Tywin's decisions after he returns while Tyrion is unconscious? Jacelyn Bywater is dead, and Tywin appoints a highly competent replacement that he knows is loyal to him and not to Varys or whoever else. The Mountain Clans are savages who are hated in the city, and Tywin sends them on their way with the rewards he promised them. Pycelle has been a loyal servitor to Tywin for many years, and, at any rate, keeping him is the only way to keep the Tyrells out. Moving Tyrion out of the Tower of the Hand is so that Tywin can move in - he is, after all, the Hand. Tywin continues to keep Tyrion as a counselor, and seems to trust him more than he does Cersei - and Cersei is just as removed from any real power as Tyrion is in the new Tywin regime. Tywin's even willing to give judicious praise to Tyrion's defense of the city. I guess I just have trouble with the idea that Tyrion suffered any great injustice after the Blackwater. Tywin still won't acknowledge him as heir to the Rock, which sucks, but otherwise he treats Tyrion perfectly fairly.

[Independent George]

Just because I'm bored, I started skimming through the Unsullied thread again, and I think their reactions really do hit upon the strengths and weaknesses of the screen adaptation.

The most negative reaction in S2 by far was to the smoke baby, which was rather positively received by bookwalkers. The reason for that disparity is that for the unsullied, the smoke baby was a Deus Ex Machina with seemingly no limits on its power. They raise the very reasonably question of why Melisandre doesn't just send it to kill Joffrey, Tywin, et al, and be done with it. Unlike the books, we see neither the physical nor psychological toll it takes on Stannis. For all intents and purposes, it's an unstoppable superweapon.

Secondly, the show really did a lousy job explaining the politics of the assassination, the motivations for switching allegiances to Stannis, and the strategic implications of the shift. It really was rushed on screen, and made for a weaker story - which is a shame, because I remember it actually being one of the stronger things in the books.

[jlk7e]

The most negative reaction in S2 by far was to the smoke baby, which was rather positively received by bookwalkers. The reason for that disparity is that for the unsullied, the smoke baby was a Deus Ex Machina with seemingly no limits on its power. They raise the very reasonably question of why Melisandre doesn't just send it to kill Joffrey, Tywin, et al, and be done with it. Unlike the books, we see neither the physical nor psychological toll it takes on Stannis. For all intents and purposes, it's an unstoppable superweapon.

While I agree that the show didn't do a great job explicitly laying out the limitations of the shadow baby, I think this is a bit too extreme. To produce one shadow baby to kill one guy, Stannis has to have sex with Melisandre, she has to carry the shadow baby to term for what must be at least a few weeks, and then she apparently has to get quite close to the target before giving birth. That seems like a significant number of limitations, not an "unstoppable superweapon." The toll they take on Stannis can be dealt with next season - who else would it have been useful to murder this season who was actually accessible to Stannis?

My biggest problem was really with the way the shadow looked. The image of the shadow when Renly gets murdered is terrifying because it's so simple - it's not a monstrous smoke creature, it's an actual shadow, which Catelyn has mistaken for Renly's own until it suddenly moves to murder him. The simplicity of that, the idea of being murdered by your own shadow, is terrifying. Turning it into a monstrous smoke creature ruins that dynamic. I didn't really mind, per se, but I would have preferred something simpler. Sometimes less is more.

[oierem]

My biggest problem was really with the way the shadow looked. The image of the shadow when Renly gets murdered is terrifying because it's so simple - it's not a monstrous smoke creature, it's an actual shadow, which Catelyn has mistaken for Renly's own until it suddenly moves to murder him. The simplicity of that, the idea of being murdered by your own shadow, is terrifying. Turning it into a monstrous smoke creature ruins that dynamic. I didn't really mind, per se, but I would have preferred something simpler. Sometimes less is more.

Exactly. In the books, the first time the shadow is used, you're not quite sure what it was. It almost could've been an actual someone hidden in the darkness (I love that type of magic: it's so subtle that it seems that it could almost be smoke and mirrors).

In the show, it seems that they tried to go that way (you can see Renly's shadow in the tent), but they decided to go for the Lost-smoke-monster-thing, which is much less subtle and more obviously magical. (none of the non-readers refer to it as a shadow: they call it a smoke-baby -Smoke-baby-baratheon, black of air lol).

I hope next season (in which Stannis has nothing to do, basically), explains the whole Stannis-Melissandre-magic aspect better. (the scene in the last episode was pretty good, btw).

[Arkash]

What if the WW are actually able to kill a dragon? We know that the zombies are vulnerable to fire, otherwise they seem to be rather resilient. An undead dragon would be a great experiment in necromancy. Would it kill itself instantly by its own inner fire? Would it breath ice instead of fire? Would it be a fireproof dragon zombie, completely undestroyable?

Nice point.