From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[brashcandy]

Is permissiveness with daughters a Stark family trait?

Why do I feel like Lyanna Stark should tackle this question? :P

[Raksha the Demon]

Why do I feel like Lyanna Stark should tackle this question? :P

Exactly. Lyanna is taught to fight and ride (and she is an accomplished rider; even Roose Bolton notes this 15+ years after Lyanna's death) and seems to be very strong-willed and cynical about marriage to Robert. I think much of Ned's attitude towards Arya comes from his love of Lyanna, and his guilt that he could not save her; he both fears Arya's wildness, similar to Lyanna's, and over-indulges it. Doesn't Ned note at some point that both Lyanna and Brandon, strong-willed 'wolf blooded' Starks, died young?

There seems to be a Northern cultural pattern of teaching girls to at least ride, allow them to be tomboys as children and have some survival skills; witness the strength of the Mormont women and Alys Karstark. But I think Ned deliberately spoiled Arya to a certain extent; perhaps as a counter-measure to the pampering/sheltering of Sansa by Catelyn. Why else would the nine-year-old Arya physically attack Sansa like a wild animal, in public? That's not normal sibling behavior, particularly for a Stark daughter; noble born children are taught courtesy and pride of house, and Arya's acting like a four-year-old brat. True, she was terribly upset, but it's a rather disturbing moment, and, for me, implies that Arya was allowed to be excessively 'wild' just as Sansa was allowed to be excessively naive.

[Lummel]

Surely all noble women would have been taught to ride (apart maybe on the iron islands due to a shortage of land to ride on). Margaery can ride, does so with her companions when going hawking. Randa Royce rides. Arienne rides. Catelyn rode about with her Dad Hoster tully.

[Raksha the Demon]

Surely all noble women would have been taught to ride (apart maybe on the iron islands due to a shortage of land to ride on). Margaery can ride, does so with her companions when going hawking. Randa Royce rides. Arienne rides. Catelyn rode about with her Dad Hoster tully.

But some, I think, are encouraged to do more than just regard it as a way of going hawking. It's implied that Sansa does not particularly enjoy riding for its own sake; while her aunt, Lyanna, not only was an outstanding rider, it's implied that she had learned to fight. Alys Karstark knows not only how to ride, but how to stay alive in brutally cold territory alone and ride a long distance to the (don't have the book with me) Castle Black to get to Jon Snow. (I'm not sure that Margaery Tyrell could have done the same thing). The Mormont women learn by necessity how to fight, to defend their lands from the Ironborn; and Ironborn Asha was taught to be a warrior and sea-captain by her father and probably others (though she might not have been if Balon had not run out of sons). Arya is allowed to run around grimy and get dirty, to play with the children of Winterfell servants and retainers, hang out in the stables and with the guards; I doubt that little Tyrells get that kind of upbringing, and we know that Tommen and Myrcella are horrified by the mere sight of a dirty child in the palace at King's Landing when they see Arya at one point in AGOT.

[Queen Cersei I]





At the beginning, I was worried Sansa would be some sort of holy virgin Queen, which is an extension of the damsel in distress trope, in many ways. And that Good girls should be chaste, faithful, true and all that bollocks. 


Really? I find that interesting. In my mind, the damsel in distress trope has little to nothing to do with that of the virgin queen.

The damsel in distress is an essentially helpless figure whose power lies in her youth and desirability. Not so the virgin queen. She has power of her own and, notably, does not need to be rescued. And also very different from the damsel in distress, who, whatever the posings about “true love”, is, in the end, basically counted worthy for her younth and desirability, the virgin queen’s worth and power is not predicated on her looks, sexual status, age, or desirability.

You note the virgin queen archetype as an extension of “virgin women are pure/ innately good” line of thinking. I definitely agree with you that that line of thinking is utterly fallacious and annoying. However, I think that, rather than being a figure that is praised and idolized, the virgin queen archetype—a woman who has, by choice, chosen not to be sexually active, and has chosen power over love—is a figure that is distasteful and threatening to men and women alike.

From the virgin goddesses of old to Queen Elizabeth the first, the instance of a woman choosing to forgo sex and live autonomously has been something that has created highly ambivalent reactions amongst the public. For instance, Lytton Strachey, in his biography of Queen Elizabeth I, dedicated copious amounts of time theorizing that she was somehow physically unable to have sex based on a deep seated psychological condition that led her to associate sex with death. Pretty much ignoring the highly sound political reasons she had for staying single.

At any rate, I think the “virgin queen” archetype is, rather than glorified, often portrayed with ambivalence, fear, and distain.After all, what is wrong with a woman who doesn’t want sex? Particularly an attractive woman? And who wants power instead? Wants power more than love and sex with a wonderful man? Something must be wrong with such a woman, indeed. It’s no wonder that Salmon Rushdie characterized Queen Elizabeth I as “a real cold fish.”

The issue is that in the past, remaining a virgin (and single) was often the only way women could hold onto power—and their own autonomy. Despite the power and strength of many queen regents, their job was basically glorified babymakers. However, in England, where there was no Salic law, women could rule independently if they were queen in their own right—and since a husband is head of his wife, I’d say its unsurprising that staying single might seem like the best option.

I’d say the greatest problem in these books with regards to women and their sexuality (and also the greatest problem in our society today) is not to glorify virginity as goodness, but to define and categorize a woman by her sexual choices. It is a very female exclusive thing to judge, summarize, sum up and define a woman according to what she does, has done, is doing between the sheets (or has not done.) I think that honestly, GRRM has not avoided this trap, and that his defining women by their sexual choices and sexual status (virgin, spinster, “worn and used” (Cersei, though you’ll note that Tyrion and co. do not get such labels), widow, wife). This goes beyond the obvious standards of Westeros, which he mocks at certain points but far more often expands upon and enforces.

For instance, you mention Septas. To me, in a society where men rule, where women’s mortality rate in childbirth is extremely high, where women really don’t have a say over how many children they have, where they can be beaten or raped by their husband, if they don’t put out enough or are uppity, pledging one’s life to religion sounds, in certain senses, rather appealing. However, I think that GRRM falls into the trap of portraying the Septa’s as either sour, old, wrinkled up old biddies whose aged virginity is laugable, ridiculous, and grotesque; or desirable, beautiful females, who are alluring for their virginity and “Purity,” and are seen as ripe for ravishment, the “forbidden fruit,” so to speak. None of this is respecting the Septa’s as human beings or seeing them as such.

Similarly, Sansa’s status as a beautiful girl and nubile, fresh virgin is constantly obsessed over and used to define her (when Tyrion notes that Sansa “is only a virgin between her legs,” one wonders if it is indeed Tyrion, or the author who’s talking.) Arrianne’s “ripeness” is drooled over, at 23 she’s portrayed as “an older woman.” She is objectified to death (“no nipples were so large, so brown, or so responsive as hers”), then shown as a silly girl who must listen to daddy.

[Lyanna Stark]

Exactly. Lyanna is taught to fight and ride (and she is an accomplished rider; even Roose Bolton notes this 15+ years after Lyanna's death) and seems to be very strong-willed and cynical about marriage to Robert. I think much of Ned's attitude towards Arya comes from his love of Lyanna, and his guilt that he could not save her; he both fears Arya's wildness, similar to Lyanna's, and over-indulges it. Doesn't Ned note at some point that both Lyanna and Brandon, strong-willed 'wolf blooded' Starks, died young? There seems to be a Northern cultural pattern of teaching girls to at least ride, allow them to be tomboys as children and have some survival skills; witness the strength of the Mormont women and Alys Karstark.

Good point. I think there is a discrepancy between the northern cultural patterns and the southern ones, especially with the way women are allowed to act. Note the Manderleys who are still looked upon almost as "southerners" and then the actions and words of Lord Too Fat To Sit a Horse's granddaughters et al. Women speaking up like that would be strange in the south. Then we have Alys Karstark and the Mormonts. Lady Hornwood also seems quite a bit more ferocious than your average southron lady. Meera Reed may not be your average woman, but she is definitely very self sufficient and independent and obviously also viewed as competent and independent enough by her father/parents to be sent off on something extremely important. Apart from the Mormonts, we did not really get a lot of insight into the Northern mindset before AFFC/ADWD, apart from the Reeds who may be outliers and the Wildlings, who have a culture apart. Judging by the northern women we have seen as of ADWD, I think we can assume that the Northern women are probably a mix of Wildling and southern, so on average they'd probably be less culturally conditioned to be proper ladies and more focused on survival, practical and outdoorsy skills.

This would make Sansa an outlier, probably because of her high birth and genteel upbringing.

Although I think Ned was overly permissive with his children (probably for good reason due to what happened to his father and two of his siblings) I do think there is a different culture in the north where women are allowed a less strict role and perhaps another degree of autonomy.

[Lyanna Stark]

Queen Cersei,

Interesting post, as always. I see that you approach this from a perspective of historical fiction. I'd also agree with you that female sexuality has been, and still is, a very threatening topic to many men. Regarding the Virgin Queen/Nun path I also agree with you that historically, the church provided women with a very interesting career path as they were freed from the slavery of childbirth (*channels Simone de Beauvoir*) and could gain power and influence in their own right.

However, GRRM's world lacks this certain path since although there seems to exist septas, septons and religion, up until the High Sparrow, the organisation is strangely anonymous and seems more like a backdrop than the immensely powerful role the Church had in medieval Europe. The only career paths we know of for girls are to become Septas or Silent Sisters, and neither of them seems to offer anything but possibly a refuge. The Septas work as teachers, but of far lower rank than say, Maesters, so compared to their historical counterparts they seem a far inferior choice.

When it comes to other Fantasy and epic fantasy in particular, virginity as a choice, or abstaining from sexuality as a choice is often viewed as necessary to gain power. Sexuality equals a descent into depravity. Many of the powerful women encountered in Fantasy who are powerful in their own right can hold on to this as long as they are pure, but any "taint" and they become less. Alternatively, they are described as asexual automatons (hello Empress Laseen). For male characters sexuality and its expressions are seen as strengths, while for female characters it's a burden or something that simply does not exist.

It's probably because fantasy literature has been so extremely male centred for so long and it's just another tie in into the freaking out when confronted by female sexuality (unless it's gratuitous lesbian sexuality for titillation purposes, then it's ok!)

Another reason why I think it's important for Sansa to be able to take charge of her own sexuality is because her claim and her maidenhead have both been things used against her and transformed her from a person into a piece of meat to be bartered. Her value is tied to her rank and her virginity. It stands to reason that she herself should be the master of this, but so far she hasn't been. The Lannisters, Lysa, Littlefinger, they were all after her claim and her virginity. Currently her value to Littlefinger is tied to her virginity as well, at least during the first phase of the masquerade with Harry the Heir.

Not to mention that the poor girl got an awful first experience of sex with Tyrion on her wedding night! She surely deserves time and freedom enough to be able to develop at her own pace and to feel that it's something she can enjoy without being pressured into.

Similarly, Sansa’s status as a beautiful girl and nubile, fresh virgin is constantly obsessed over and used to define her (when Tyrion notes that Sansa “is only a virgin between her legs,” one wonders if it is indeed Tyrion, or the author who’s talking.) Arrianne’s “ripeness” is drooled over, at 23 she’s portrayed as “an older woman.” She is objectified to death (“no nipples were so large, so brown, or so responsive as hers”), then shown as a silly girl who must listen to daddy.

Hence my comment earlier about there being quite a few very beautiful women, but fewer good looking men. ;)

I don't think the portrayals of women are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I still think it's head and shoulders above almost every other fantasy literature out there, possibly with the exception of Daniel Abraham's Long Price Quartet.

Another good thing is that GRRM does not avoid topics like motherhood and family, which are among the most unsexy topics that could possibly be brought up in a very male oriented genre.

[Maroucia]

Hey, the ending is meant to be bittersweet ;)

Yeah, but Sansa as an eternal virgin is plainly bitter and not sweet at all to me... :frown5:

[Lady.]

wow - fantastic discussion regarding women's sexuality in fiction, and Sansa's in particular. I subscribe to the view on the previous pages that it is incredibly refreshing to have this theme be explored in a way that doesn't view sex as something dirty, shameful or an act that will diminish Sansa's value, but something that women can genuinely enjoy and take pleasure from. I do believe that Randa and Mya are there to help Sansa on this journey and I think that charting his character's growth is a strength of Martin's - they aren't the same people at the beginning as they are at the end - and I'm excited to see how Sansa will develop in this way. It seems to be almost certain she will employ these new wiles with LF - and I hope it will be his downfall.

Going a bit off the discussion at hand - one of the questions I keep returning to in my head is why the Hound was never asked to harm Sansa. There is one instance (I can't remember if it's in the throne room with the crossbow or another time) where Joffrey commands the Hound to hit her, and immediately Ser Dontos jumps in and offers to hit her with the melon, after which other Kingsguard men take over. But given that the Hound was Joffrey's preferred man at arms, why (almost) never ask him? And what would (or could) Sandor have done if Joffrey had demanded it?

the other point I keep thinking about is Sansa as a political figure. She is certainly getting the best training possible in how to play the game of thrones, but does she actually want to be a political ruler of any kind? I remain unconvinced. Certainly, I don't think she wants to retire away and play with puppies and produce children - I'm not sure she could ever want such a simple, innocent life again - but I do think she's had enough of political games and intrigue. I would certainly like to see her re-build Winterfell, but beyond that I'm not sure how much of a political future I see for her.

[Valkyrja]

I agree, Lady.....I find it difficult to imagine Sansa embracing politics fully without seeing this as leading to a tragic/sadder end to her storyline. Unless, of course, things change drastically in the political scene in Westeros by the end of the series....I'm just tired of seeing Sansa constantly in this nest of snakes all the time. It makes me sad to think what it might do to her spirit and kinder nature. I'm not saying that I don't think she is *capable* of playing the game and playing it well (she is definitely more capable than Ned, for instance), but I start to feel really uncomfortable when I think about where that might lead her.... constant political manoeuvrings with no end in sight....

I dunno, I don't really have any solid reasoning behind this fear, other than just a 'feeling'. I admit it is probably just my own aversion to politics that is coming out here. :(

[Lummel]

But some, I think, are encouraged to do more than just regard it as a way of going hawking. It's implied that Sansa does not particularly enjoy riding for its own sake; while her aunt, Lyanna, not only was an outstanding rider, it's implied that she had learned to fight. Alys Karstark knows not only how to ride, but how to stay alive in brutally cold territory alone and ride a long distance to the (don't have the book with me) Castle Black to get to Jon Snow. (I'm not sure that Margaery Tyrell could have done the same thing). The Mormont women learn by necessity how to fight, to defend their lands from the Ironborn; and Ironborn Asha was taught to be a warrior and sea-captain by her father and probably others (though she might not have been if Balon had not run out of sons). Arya is allowed to run around grimy and get dirty, to play with the children of Winterfell servants and retainers, hang out in the stables and with the guards; I doubt that little Tyrells get that kind of upbringing, and we know that Tommen and Myrcella are horrified by the mere sight of a dirty child in the palace at King's Landing when they see Arya at one point in AGOT.

Well, I don't disagree that there are cultural differences between the north and the south (and then again with dorne) but...the Mormonts are particular even in the North, as you say by necessity, and in the south most of the noble women we see are associated with a fairly sophisticated courtly life which you don't get in the North, they are not necessarily a typical bunch either. The Ned is indulgent to Arya in the North but The Evenstar is also indulgent to his daughter Brienne in the south too. OK Alys Karstark rides (and I was glad of her presence in the story) but I wouldn't personally assume that she was doing more than any other noble woman in her (admittedly unusual) situation might have down when faced with an unacceptable greedy uncle marriage. The glimpses we get of Lady Smallwood and Genna Lannister suggest that capable women are not unknown down south.

Really? I find that interesting. In my mind, the damsel in distress trope has little to nothing to do with that of the virgin queen. The damsel in distress is an essentially helpless figure whose power lies in her youth and desirability. Not so the virgin queen. She has power of her own and, notably, does not need to be rescued...

I haven't seen a virgin queen suggestion for Sansa's future, although before Dany's miscarriage in ADWD it was a future possibility for her. Just to pick up from her Majesty Queen Cersei's words on the subject surely we can all appreciate the power in the idea of someone choosing virginity and thus rejecting something that most of us find, er...ahem... :blush: ...

It wasn't unknown to find virgin Kings either (back in the day) like Edward the Confessor and Richard II and if you want to stretch things then you've got Artemis/Diana the virgin huntress. But I think a virgin queen might be a hard sell even for GRRM to his readers and of course because of the pomegranate don't we know that Sansa is Persephone ;)

I do think there is a different culture in the north where women are allowed a less strict role and perhaps another degree of autonomy.

Hard to say because we have seen so few 'average' Southeron noble women (lady smallwood, genna lannister, Lady wainwood, the Red Spider in The Sworn Sword), by contrast in the north we get Lady Dustin, Three Manderley women (although briefly) three Mormont Women, Alys Karstark, the Stark girls and their aunt. Not that I'm complaining, but considering the population of the North we get to enjoy a richer picture of northern noble women than southerners and that could be skewing our ideas.

...Another good thing is that GRRM does not avoid topics like motherhood and family, which are among the most unsexy topics that could possibly be brought up in a very male oriented genre.

Sexiness or otherwise apart, family is very dramatic though. I really appreciate Catelyn, the ominous sense of foreboding that you get from her POV particularly as the war continues is fantastic in my opinion, although I notice not quite to everyone's taste.

...I keep thinking about is Sansa as a political figure. She is certainly getting the best training possible in how to play the game of thrones, but does she actually want to be a political ruler of any kind? I remain unconvinced...

I don't get the impression that you necessarily get to choose your role in the game of thrones, you know, like Shakespeare almost said some women are born great, some achieve greatness and other women have greatness thrust upon them.

[Fragile Bird]

<snipped for brevity>

You have a genius for understatement. I wish more people did. :rolleyes:

[Grail King]

I agree, Lady.....I find it difficult to imagine Sansa embracing politics fully without seeing this as leading to a tragic/sadder end to her storyline. Unless, of course, things change drastically in the political scene in Westeros by the end of the series....I'm just tired of seeing Sansa constantly in this nest of snakes all the time. It makes me sad to think what it might do to her spirit and kinder nature. I'm not saying that I don't think she is *capable* of playing the game and playing it well (she is definitely more capable than Ned, for instance), but I start to feel really uncomfortable when I think about where that might lead her.... constant political manoeuvrings with no end in sight.... I dunno, I don't really have any solid reasoning behind this fear, other than just a 'feeling'. I admit it is probably just my own aversion to politics that is coming out here. :(

It's the myriad of symbolism in her arc and her being in a very dangerous place, with her family on the edge of extinction.

Did this make anyone any better?

[Maroucia]

A lot of people hanging on this thread have changed their avatar lately… It’s confusing! :wacko:

[Grail King]

A lot of people hanging on this thread have changed their avatar lately… It’s confusing! :wacko:

Like the Starks the Ice Dragon will return :)

[Elba the Intoner]

I just caught up on this thread and found this discussion particularly interesting, and it's funny because I just so happened to attend a discussion group today about "4 biblical female characters who do not get to defend their name." The comments that Queen Cersei brought up and Lyanna responded to reminded me very much of two of the women we discussed today, Lilith and Jezebel. I don't have time to post what I learned about them right now but if you google either name, the wikipedia descriptions are pretty detailed. I could post more on them tomorrow if anyone is interested, but in both cases, in very simplistic terms, they were women who wanted an equality with men or power and autonomy in their own right and whose names were later impugned for their actions.

Also, I wanted to go back to some comparisons between Sansa and Arya that were recently mentioned and how Ned said they were two sides of the same coin. I have thought from pretty much the beginning of the story, but certainly by the third book, that they each need to get a little bit of the defining characteristic of other to make them stronger. Arya is impulsive, wild and fierce, much like the north women in general but she stands up and fights for what she believes in. Sansa is tamer, more thoughtful and tempered but she has not yet managed to take the initiative on her own. It was mentioned a while ago on here that Sansa could never have survived if she had been forced to roam around the riverlands as Arya did, and Arya would most likely have not survived King's Landing if she had been captured and held there like Sansa was. I felt like sometimes it would have been nice to see Sansa exhibit some of the fierceness that Arya has, and it would be much better for Arya if she could temper her impulsiveness and anger. If they each can get those qualities while still maintaining the other things that make them who they are, they will both be a lot better off.

[Lummel]

You have a genius for understatement. I wish more people did. :rolleyes:

seeing as you snipped me for brevity I conclude that you are making fun of me again my friend! ( :crying: )

I just caught up on this thread and found this discussion particularly interesting, and it's funny because I just so happened to attend a discussion group today about "4 biblical female characters who do not get to defend their name." The comments that Queen Cersei brought up and Lyanna responded to reminded me very much of two of the women we discussed today, Lilith and Jezebel...I could post more on them tomorrow if anyone is interested, but in both cases, in very simplistic terms, they were women who wanted an equality with men or power and autonomy in their own right and whose names were later impugned for their actions. Also, I wanted to go back to some comparisons between Sansa and Arya that were recently mentioned and how Ned said they were two sides of the same coin ...It was mentioned a while ago on here that Sansa could never have survived if she had been forced to roam around the riverlands as Arya did, and Arya would most likely have not survived King's Landing if she had been captured and held there like Sansa was...

I would find the biblical parallels interesting, since GRRM is a lapsed (I think) Catholic, I'm sure he would have been familiar with them if only from Sunday School.

Its funny, that idea of Sansa unlike Arya not being able to have survived in the Riverlands, as far as I recall Arya without help ended up eating worms. On the surface the two sisters have very different paths (stuck in an aunt's castle vs assassin training in braavos) while being similiar under the surface (stuck with ambigious mentors). Maybe they are both like Persephone, trapped down in Hades for the winter waiting for the Spring when they can return to their mum?

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, I don't disagree that there are cultural differences between the north and the south (and then again with dorne) but...the Mormonts are particular even in the North, as you say by necessity, and in the south most of the noble women we see are associated with a fairly sophisticated courtly life which you don't get in the North, they are not necessarily a typical bunch either. The Ned is indulgent to Arya in the North but The Evenstar is also indulgent to his daughter Brienne in the south too. OK Alys Karstark rides (and I was glad of her presence in the story) but I wouldn't personally assume that she was doing more than any other noble woman in her (admittedly unusual) situation might have down when faced with an unacceptable greedy uncle marriage. The glimpses we get of Lady Smallwood and Genna Lannister suggest that capable women are not unknown down south.

Patriarchal oppression does not create a complete lack of strong women (unless we assume R Scott Bakker is correct!) ;)

Good point though about there being independent and strong women in the south as well. I think that's a point about realism too, since in real life there will be strong, empowered women and there will be weak ones.

That said, I do think there is a cultural difference and that it has to do with the Seven vs the Old Gods. The Old Gods seem to generally be a more ferocious lot, so it stands to reason the people who are associated with them would also be somewhat more ferocious, sort of like the Christians vs the Norse Aesir worship, exemplified in its extreme by the historical images Bran saw of a woman sacrificing someone with a sickle in front of the heart tree, in a scenario similar to the Blot rituals at Old Uppsala, complete with a magic tree similar to a Weirwood. The northerners also don't have any knights and although the notions of chivalry exist, the main focus of life in the north appears to be far more tied to survival in a harsh environment and all which that entails. Interestingly people see the Ironborn as the "Viking" people, but the Old God religion and the way of life of the North are not hugely far off the Vikings (and the Ironborn's religious beliefs are nothing like the Vikings but appear to be some sort of Cthulu cult).

The Viking women were also expected to be quite competent and sort out basically everything while the men were away trading/sacking and were often the de facto rulers of holdfasts, especially in the role as Castellan or overseer (Keeper of the Keys). This role fits well with how Alys Karstark seems to think as well. She's quite concerned with the harvest, how to feed everyone and she has a good grasp on number of people, what it will take for feed people in winter, etc. She's also not a Flint or a Norrey, or of one of the lesser barely noble houses, but a Karstark, which should be equivalent to say House Tarly or Redwyne (coldly assuming here that the Reach is the centre of chivalry and "southern values" :P I blame Loras). Good old Randyll Tarly certainly does not care much for women outside of the broodmare side, either. although to be fair (or harsh :P ) I am not sold on him being completely representative either. That said, as much of outliers as the Mormont women are, at least there *are* female fighters in the north, and the Wildlings are close enough that they must at least be aware of spearwives in the north, too. The northerners also seem to respect the wildling's skill and ferocity far more than the southern knights we see brought north by Stannis.

Regarding a direct comparison between Alys Karstark and Genna Lannister/Lady Smallwood, I think all of them are great additions, but Genna married her Frey and Alys decided to flee her arranged marriage (although the circumstances were slightly different).

Of course, Sansa is of higher birth than Alys Karstark and probably more like Margaery Tyrell or Cersei Lannister in that regard, but I always got the impression that the reason she was more like the southern ladies was that it was her own interest that went that way. It also probably mattered that she had an older brother, meaning that at no point was she the heir of Winterfell. Cat was up until Edmure's birth (or at least his likely survival) the heir to Riverrun, so I assume that was why she seemed to have got a more well rounded, realistic education and upbringing. As the Hoster Tully's eldest child and then even more at the loss of her mother, she also had to take on a lot of responsibility while still fairly young, which could explain why she was always less pampered than Sansa.

[Lummel]

Patriarchal oppression does not create a complete lack of strong women (unless we assume R Scott Bakker is correct!) ;)

Ah, Lyanna, you know that I can't talk about such things, I had to swear an oath on the sacred beard of patriarchs at patriarchy training camp after all.

I agree intuitively there is a difference between north and south, but I'm not sure where to draw the line. There are also as you point out environmental factors, a Karstark is going to be much more aware and concerned about the grain harvest than a Redwyne or Florant afterall. I'm aware of building an argument on one Lady Smallwood administration skills and one Karstark woman's harvest awareness - and it's not much of a foundation! So I am in the 'yes, but don't let the idea run too far out of sight' camp (no doubt on my own in that camp, but still...).

Old Uppsala and its sacred grove is a good parallel in my opinion. Its very clear that the North is a much starker place and not just where all the good guys and gals come from. (Aye, aye - that's you and your viking ancestresses Lyanna, competent and savage!) But so far this is a side of Sansa that we haven't seen much of, maybe we see a flash of her Father's style in how she reassures the womenfolk in Kings Landing during the siege?

[Grail King]

As much as culture plays a part in how females are brought up between the North and South, I think the reason Sansa is who she is is her birth timing, FIRST daughter, second child overall, Ned knowing what happened to his father, brother and sister may have been stricter with Sansa, along with his new southern wife with her cultural makeup where traditionally girls are taught lady like manners with a bend towards behind the scene political training.

I think because of how badly things went for Neds siblings he sheltered his eldest daughter more and had her follow a more traditional role he didn't want to loose anymore of his family to Southern ambitions.