From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Lummel]

I was excited when I realized the dwarf on High Heart (?) - the hill Arya comes to with the BWB - and her prophecy about a maiden with purple snakes hissing in her hair referred to Sansa and the hairnet she wears that the Tyrells use to poison Joffrey, because of the next part of the prophecy in which the maiden would slay a giant in a castle made of snow. I was dying to figure out who the giant was. However, I recently re-read the sequence where Littlefinger murders Lysa Arren and noticed that before that happens, when Sansa builds the castle of Winterfell, Sweetrobyn pretends his doll is a giant trying to destroy the snow castle and Sansa "slays" the doll/giant, pulling off its head and (I think?) mounting its head on the snow castle. Is this all the prophecy refers to, do people think? Or does it pre-figure something a little more meaningful? I was sort of disappointed once I realized this might be it, although that would also be a little funny.

It could be a serious GRRM joke - the serious bit is how difficult it is to interpret these visions, but another suggestion is that Littlefinger is that giant. That idea refers back to the fact that his grandfather's shield has the head of the Titian of Braavos on it (politically he could be described as a giant too) and in winter any number of castles may well look as though they are built up out of snow I suppose.

[bgona]

I'm not sure which crimes Sandor has been accused of that he didn't commit, but in Westerosi terms as a Kingsguard who fled his duty during war in the face of the enemy he's a pretty serious oath breaker and unlike the Kingslayer his father isn't one of the most powerful noblemen in the kingdom nor is his sister due to marry the next king.

But he didn´t take an oath, so he didn´t break that one. He can be accused of desertion, and of cowardice.

[bgona]

It could be a serious GRRM joke - the serious bit is how difficult it is to interpret these visions, but another suggestion is that Littlefinger is that giant. That idea refers back to the fact that his grandfather's shield has the head of the Titian of Braavos on it (politically he could be described as a giant too) and in winter any number of castles may well look as though they are built up out of snow I suppose.

Reading ADWD Melissandre talks about the visions, that not always are as they see (never at the books). I always believe that Sansa was that woman with the purple snakes and the giant was the SR doll. But I really hope that it doesn´t keep this way and that she will be the one to slaye the giant.

[Kittykatknits]

I also want to see her happy, however, I think that it's very important that she remain a virgin until after her marraige to Tyrion is anulled...I think we were informed via Cercei and Margery situation that the Faith has the right to try and punish, or at very least, not allow annullment, if Sansa does not remain a virgin. I would rather see her out of the loveless forced marraige to Tyrion than be stuck with it, and publicly condemned as an adulterer - it seems like that would be a pretty bad political mistake as well.

Also - it's occured to me, but has anyone else thought of it? Maybe LF has arranged for Sansa to be exposed to sexually open women to help her to be more aware of/open to his icky advances? He is a devious guy, that so far hasn't seemed to slip up, maybe he still hasn't, and maybe he has multiple ways he is trying to get Sansa.

Also, I think it's demeaning to women to argue that a female should be sexually active to be a 'real' woman. That sounds like a like used by a male who wants to coerce a female into sleeping with him. We can be fully actualized women with or without sex. I personally won't care if she ends the series as a virgin or not, as long as it's her choice. For me, if Sansa is able to end the series by living a life of her choosing, and not one that is forced upon her, regardless of what that entails, then I'll be happy with her development.

LF actually warned Sansa away from Randa so I don't think his plan is to expose her to them at all. His behavior so far shows that he is trying to keep her dependent on him. If he encourages relationships with others, then it would be contrary to what he has been doing with her so far.

I would like to see Sansa happy in the end as well but her very thoughts show that she wants a family and children. She also expresses the concern that no one will ever love her for herself but only her claim. These thoughts don't match with someone who would desire a ife staying a virgin. She also says at one point that she would not have minded being naked with a different man. Add in her conversation with Randa at the end of AFFC, it's pretty apparent she is a normal girl who is learning about her own sexuality and will soon be ready for more experiences. It's not about how she should be sexually active, merely an understanding of where Sansa is moving as a character.

Her marriage with Tyrion could end via annulment or via the death of one of both of them. It is also possible they will stay married, a scenario I hope does not happen. The annulment is an option and we are given information about it in Dance. But, we have already seen the current High Seption. From our glimpses so far, he is very political and is not a, um, friend to women. I don't see the current power structure in the Faith granting an annulment without gaining something significant in return, at least not right now. I have had a feeling that Tyrion will not survive the series but that's a guess on my part as much as anything. This is a storyline I am really looking to play out. But, bottom line, her remaining a virgin is not the only means to end their marriage. I also would not want to condemn her for that since it could very well be years until an annulment is granted.

I'm not sure which crimes Sandor has been accused of that he didn't commit, but in Westerosi terms as a Kingsguard who fled his duty during war in the face of the enemy he's a pretty serious oath breaker and unlike the Kingslayer his father isn't one of the most powerful noblemen in the kingdom nor is his sister due to marry the next king.

He is a deserter for leaving the KG and is accused of Saltpans. We know he did not commit Saltpans and there are people out there who know the truth but it remains to be seen whether that will matter or not. In the long run, I think this will be the bigger problem for him than the KG.

Any thought been given to the possibility of Sansa acting regent for Rickon as either the lord of Winterfell or King in the North? The parallels of such between Cersei and Lysa are fairly obvious and would allow her her own power base from which to become a player.

I don't really agree, not while Tyrion is so completely out of the picture and considered an enemy to the Lannisters themselves. For all anyone knows he is dead or never likely to return, and if LF's plan comes to be she'll be revealed as Harry's bride and Lady of the Vale, Tyrion would be a throw away issue at that stage. I imagine the marriage will come into play after power is consolidated in the other lands and Tyrion returns..

Sansa as Regent for Rickon could easily play out. As the daughter of a Stark and Tully, she can have a unifying impact on the North, Riverlands, and the Vale. One of the great things about Sansa's character is there are so many different directions she can go. Her future is one of the plotlines I'm looking most forward to reading.

To the men in the Riverlands and North, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion will always be an issue. He is a member of the family that killed their liege lord and king, crippled a Stark son, and passed off a fake Arya. I'm sure they have also figured out that Sansa was married against her will as well. To the Northmen and Stannis, Tyrion's personal feelings about his family won't matter. Now, he is not only a Lannister but a Lannister that killed his own king and father. Stannis already has dismissed "Lady Lannister" and as long as she is married to him, Tyrion will always have a claim to Winterfell and the North. I don't see Stark bannermen supporting her claim as long as that is a possibility. The same problem exists in the Riverlands. In the Jaime chapters, we saw that the River lords may have bent the knee but there was no love there. The war is officially over but the whole region is still a powder keg. Jaime was a prisoner for almost the entire war, Tyrion was actually in KL as acting hand. I can not imagine any one in the Riverlands accepting Tyrion's presence either.

If, and when, Sansa wants a power base of her own, her marriage to Tyrion will always be a hindrance to her. As for Tyrion, he really wanted CR. He forced Sansa to marry him in order to get WF but that was really a consolation prize. He's smart enough to know if he attempts to take up residence in WF, he'd be dead within the week. If Rickon or Bran reappear, he would also know that his claim to WF is gone too and Sansa brings him nothing but a young body. At that point, I don't see him wanting to be in the marriage either.

[Valkyrja]

For Valkyrja I hope everything gets better.

Thank you, brashcandy! :grouphug:

That really put a smile on my face. :)

I am super busy right now, but I will try to contribute something of substance when I have the chance to catch up. In the meantime, keep up this very impressive discussion! :)

[Kittykatknits]

I was excited when I realized the dwarf on High Heart (?) - the hill Arya comes to with the BWB - and her prophecy about a maiden with purple snakes hissing in her hair referred to Sansa and the hairnet she wears that the Tyrells use to poison Joffrey, because of the next part of the prophecy in which the maiden would slay a giant in a castle made of snow. I was dying to figure out who the giant was. However, I recently re-read the sequence where Littlefinger murders Lysa Arren and noticed that before that happens, when Sansa builds the castle of Winterfell, Sweetrobyn pretends his doll is a giant trying to destroy the snow castle and Sansa "slays" the doll/giant, pulling off its head and (I think?) mounting its head on the snow castle. Is this all the prophecy refers to, do people think? Or does it pre-figure something a little more meaningful? I was sort of disappointed once I realized this might be it, although that would also be a little funny.

I sometimes wonder if the significance of Sansa's Snow Castle was that Winterfell is gone. Anything made out of Snow melts eventually, and the Winterfell she knew is no more. All that's left are the stones: the people are gone and memories are all that is left.

It could be a serious GRRM joke - the serious bit is how difficult it is to interpret these visions, but another suggestion is that Littlefinger is that giant. That idea refers back to the fact that his grandfather's shield has the head of the Titian of Braavos on it (politically he could be described as a giant too) and in winter any number of castles may well look as though they are built up out of snow I suppose.

I do think that the Ghost of High Heart was referring to Sansa building that castle out of snow, but - there is actually much more going on. I just took a look at Arya's chapter where the Ghost makes an appearance to make sure I had not forgotten anything that she says. But, look at the rest of her visions- they are all very significant events. The Red Wedding, The Purple Wedding, and the death of Balon Greyjoy all had a significant impact on the storyline and all occured within the same book. Sansa building the snow castle occurs within the same book but is not, in and of itself, a significant moment on the plot line. However, I believe that her building the snow castle, having LF walk into it, and then her destroying the toy giant all actually foreshadow a future event, an event that very likely will be the climax of Sansa's story in the books. If this is the case, then it puts her building the castle in the snow on a level a bit more equal with the Ghost's other visions.

Another thing to note about prophecy in this story is that they will not always come true, Martin has already said that. The most obvious example is the Stallion Who Failed to Mount the World. There is also quite a bit of disagreement over Dany's visions in the HotU. So, my point being, that we will likely be left wondering about the meaning behind visions, prophecies, etc. even after the series is completed.

@Rapsie - I like your take that WF may never be rebuilt. I had not thought of it that way before. Not saying I want it to happen but when you consider the Stark kids and where they are it, I would not rule it out as a possibility.

[Elba the Intoner]

Feminists really get the Jezebel story wrong: she was a Phoenician Princess, and the Phoenicians were god monarchs not dissimilar to Pharoah, thus when Jezebel desired Naboth's vineyard, she was acting like a member of Phoenician royalty, who thought they had a right to steal the possessions of their subjects (being god-monarchs). Unfortunately the Israelites believed in the rule of law (since the king was just a servant of the people hence Ruth's son is called Obed-which means servant) and that the King was not above the law (but merely there to prevent civil war such as seen in the Battle of Gibeah), so Jezebel's behaviour was completely unacceptable. I would consider her an example not of the subversion of patriarchal rule, but as a foreigner trying to impose a more authoritarian system of government on a free people. http://www.amazon.com/Harlot-Side-Road-Jonathan-Kirsch/dp/0345418824/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337406548&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Created-Equal-Ancient-Political-Thought/dp/0199832404/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Yes, you are quite right. Obviously there is a much larger context for Jezebel's story and overall it does represent a clash of cultures. and the resentment of the Israelite landowners to being forced to submit to them. But, what I got from the story, and I think what feminists focus on (and I don't claim to be an expert in modern feminist theory by any means) is that Jezebel's name is now associated with being a harlot, a promiscuous, wicked and shameless woman. It's an insult to call a woman today a Jezebel. Her name has been impugned because of her sexuality, without knowledge of the larger context of her history and the history surrounding her rule. The idea I got from it was that Jezebel was evil because of her sexuality. Look at what she is most associated with - the fact that she painted her face and dressed up before going to meet her doom, which has come to be associated with prostitutes rather than her attempt at going out of the world as a queen.

[chrisdaw]

I can not imagine any one in the Riverlands accepting Tyrion's presence either.

If she is to consolidate the lands North of KL it will be while Tyrion is not present (Essos), and it will be sold by either LF or Sansa as a forced marriage that was never consumated to a missing, irrelevant and most likely dead husband, and there's a chance she'll be married to another at the time too.

For a claim on the Westerlands to fall into place Tyrion will need to return and if she were married have her husband removed, and by then she may have the other 3 firmly in hand.

[Lyanna Stark]

If she is to consolidate the lands North of KL it will be while Tyrion is not present (Essos), and it will be sold by either LF or Sansa as a forced marriage that was never consumated to a missing, irrelevant and most likely dead husband, and there's a chance she'll be married to another at the time too. For a claim on the Westerlands to fall into place Tyrion will need to return and if she were married have her husband removed, and by then she may have the other 3 firmly in hand.

It doesn't matter whether or not it wasn't consummated and as long as Tyrion isn't confirmed dead, she will still be married. He's many things but definitely not irrelevant, as he was the old Hand of the King and the uncle of the ruling King.

The marriage to Tyrion provides Sansa with an extension of his enormous plot armour, and this case it extends to Sansa being barred from getting into another marriage while Tyrion still lives.

I also think it's very, very premature to assume LF's words on claiming the North are not only words. It's unlikely anyone in the North will accept Sansa, which LF most likely knows. Winter has come to the North as well, which means travel and troop movement will be hell on earth and nobody in their right mind will attempt it. If Stannis takes Winterfell it's likely his stay there will be of some duration since nobody else will be able to move easily that far north during winter without dragons to fly on, unless they mean to land along the coastline and travel by ship.

It's far more likely to assume that LF is aiming for something nearer, like Riverrun or the Vale itself, or that he will be content with marrying Sansa himself. Claiming the North was what he said when he tried to placate Sansa and make her go along with his scheme with Harry the Heir. He needs her to be motivated to play her part, hence dangle Winterfell as a carrot.

[Maroucia]

Also, I think it's demeaning to women to argue that a female should be sexually active to be a 'real' woman. That sounds like a like used by a male who wants to coerce a female into sleeping with him. We can be fully actualized women with or without sex. I personally won't care if she ends the series as a virgin or not, as long as it's her choice. For me, if Sansa is able to end the series by living a life of her choosing, and not one that is forced upon her, regardless of what that entails, then I'll be happy with her development.

Saying that to become a real woman, you need to loose your virginity does sound kind of what a pervert/creepy guy would tell a young girl to convince her to sleep with him (I could see Littlefinger saying that to Sansa :stillsick: ), so, as I was the one who brought out that argument, I’m going to reformulate my idea to make it sound a little less cheaply dirty…

Sex is an extremely important part of life. Nobody can deny it, even if someone would decide never to sleep with anyone, his very existence is still due to sex… Without sex, the human race would be extinct from the surface of the earth… or from the Westeros and Essos continents ;) …

Sex is also an intrinsic part of the human experience, and this is for everyone, men and women equally.

If you decide not to make it a part of your life, it won’t make you a less worthy individual, but one can ask if you would be missing something in the end; same as love, friendship and having children, which are all also extremely important parts of the human experience not be missed. I don’t see any reasons why anyone would be forbidden from these basics of life, these (including sex) are what life is literally made of!

As some of you have discussed earlier, women in the past history sometimes stayed virgin to empower themselves (virgin queens) or to keep control of their own destiny (as nuns did for example). I can totally understand why they did this, but it’s still sad as this very fact is symptomatic of a patriarchal society where women are ruled by men and have no power over themselves and their own sexuality. As long as a woman has to use her virginity as a weapon to gain power, it means that she isn’t that liberated and it certainly indicates a lack of equality between both sexes. Why would women always have to be better than the men to gain the same amount of power or the exact same political position?

I want the women of ASOIAF to break free from these stupid and sexist conventions, Sansa first!

I want Sansa to experience life to its fullest!!!

…sorry if this got a little too philosophical…

[brashcandy]

Philosophical and beautiful! Well said!

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] This thread series is not for people who dislike Sansa -- not the point of this entire discussion. So please refrain from dropping off-topic "I hate Sansa" comments in here. They are unwelcome. Thank you. [/mod]

[Lyanna Stark]

Sansa building the snow castle occurs within the same book but is not, in and of itself, a significant moment on the plot line. However, I believe that her building the snow castle, having LF walk into it, and then her destroying the toy giant all actually foreshadow a future event, an event that very likely will be the climax of Sansa's story in the books. If this is the case, then it puts her building the castle in the snow on a level a bit more equal with the Ghost's other visions.

:agree:

Since it was mentioned so clearly by the Ghost of High Heart and all the other things have been important, it definitely feels like it was added there so as to make us notice when it happened. The initial prophecy is really vague as well, but if we assume that it pertains to Littlefinger and Sansa, and him stepping over the walls of Winterfell (linked up to Arya thinking about the Titan of Braavos that it was so big it could step over the walls of Winterfell) and his choice of words too (doesn't he say "Can I come into your castle"? :stillsick: ).

It could simply point to that LF will usurp Sansa's Stark-side, he will supplant Ned as her father and make her of his lineage (i.e. legacy the Titan), which would mean that he metaphorically steps over the walls of Winterfell. Or it could have the more sinister meaning that Sansa will eventually slay a giant that isn't a doll, which seems to be the more commonly accepted, but not necessarily correct one.

As some of you have discussed earlier, women in the past history sometimes stayed virgin to empower themselves (virgin queens) or to keep control of their own destiny (as nuns did for example). I can totally understand why they did this, but it’s still sad as this very fact is symptomatic of a patriarchal society where women are ruled by men and have no power over themselves and their own sexuality. As long as a woman has to use her virginity as a weapon to gain power, it means that she isn’t that liberated and it certainly indicates a lack of equality between both sexes. Why would women always have to be better then the men to gain the same amount of power or the exact same political position?

This deserves to be said more often than it does. :) It should be obvious, but to many it's sadly not, and women (both real and fictional) still suffer strong pressure to remain "pure" and "innocent" while suppressing an important part of their own personality. Unfortunately female sexuality and its expressions are still threatening to a lot of people. For an in forum example, check all the "OMG how can Dany sleep with Daario??" whine threads.

[bgona]

I can’t blame your friend, apart from the un-kiss, which of course I didn’t miss since I was already shipping SanSan on my first reading, I didn’t get any of those hints at first. I don’t mind it though; it made my second time around much more interesting even if I felt like such an idiot ( :bang: ) for missing so many important things!!!

I also missed a lot of things (and still missing cause I only have done 1 read and only reread Sansa chapters, not all yet, and some of Arya).

But something that I notice (sure you all have notice already and I´m not saying anything new) that the prophecys do not happen to the POV in which are writed.

This brought me to the Twins falls (the two cloud castles that can mean eather the Stark and Lannister falls as the Twins falls). If Sansa sought it, then she won´t be present at the fall.

I also am reading (yes still reading) ADWD and in Davos POV are a lot references about dogs made by the Freys at White Harbour. This joined to how Melissandre explains what she sees at the fires (that is prophecies) that not always are exacts, that she has to interprete them (that is what has happened since the begin with all the prophecies that are shown). All these make me believe that Sansa will not be present when the Twins will fall, but a Hound yes. I don´t know if it will be Sandor or his Hound helmet carried by another (maybe by Lem, indicating here that Lady Stoneheart will be a part of that fall).

[bgona]

@ Jojen said the Wolves will return. Given the way over green dreams have been, I'm not sure it means the Starks. Looking at Moat Catlin and the scene where Robb and Cat find the workout tomb of a once great King whose great Castle is gone, I'm not sure if Winterfell will be rebuilt. It may just be left as a ruin. Also it may suffer even more damage from the Stannis/ Bolton battle. A lot of abandoned and ruined Castles in the UK are abandoned due to fire damage. Also the people of Winterfell who have lived there as long as the Starks, are all dead (those that Ramsay still has in the Dreadfort can't be in a good way), it would cost a lot of money to rebuild and even if Sansa were to stay with Tyrion in order to try and use Lannister gold to rebuild (ugh!) the North would not accept it. I sometimes wonder if the significance of Sansa's Snow Castle was that Winterfell is gone. Anything made out of Snow melts eventually, and the Winterfell she knew is no more. All that's left are the stones: the people are gone and memories are all that is left.

I really believe that the Starks will return (not know how many nor which ones) and more with that Jojen´s prophecy. (You just make me happy remembering this! :) ).

My personnal opinion is that the castle that will be consumated by fire will be The Twins, not WF. To rebuild it properly it will cost money and time (all this can be done if the place is worthy due to strategy point or political relevance and I believe that WF has both points). Many Spanish castles and cities had been rebuilt depending on any of those two points.

[bgona]

Yes, you are quite right. Obviously there is a much larger context for Jezebel's story and overall it does represent a clash of cultures. and the resentment of the Israelite landowners to being forced to submit to them. But, what I got from the story, and I think what feminists focus on (and I don't claim to be an expert in modern feminist theory by any means) is that Jezebel's name is now associated with being a harlot, a promiscuous, wicked and shameless woman. It's an insult to call a woman today a Jezebel. Her name has been impugned because of her sexuality, without knowledge of the larger context of her history and the history surrounding her rule. The idea I got from it was that Jezebel was evil because of her sexuality. Look at what she is most associated with - the fact that she painted her face and dressed up before going to meet her doom, which has come to be associated with prostitutes rather than her attempt at going out of the world as a queen.

That insult (as the name of Jezebel) has been used not only by Jews also by Catholics. I remember reading something about the evil getting inside of the women that painted their faces. The mysogyny at Medieval Age is something already demostrated. Women at that historical period had few power (they are someones, but really few).

However, they are a few ones after that they had really power by themselves, as Queen Elizabeth. And I believe that this is united to all the political maneuvers (marriage always have been one political one) it is show as the beginning of a change.

I don´t know how to expressed by it came to my mind Maquiavelo and his book The Prince (some people believe that he was based on Fernand The Catholic, a Spanish King) with all the marriage alliances to get power. In addition, also the movement of the sparrows (also rememebering me at Saint Anthony and his sparrows) demostrates another change. And I can remember (I don´t know if correctly or not) that GRRM spoke about political changing in Westeros. All these together remembers me at the end of the Medieval Age.

Please if somebody get something or if can came with something post it. Maybe it is just a too latenight thought without any base.

[Kittykatknits]

If she is to consolidate the lands North of KL it will be while Tyrion is not present (Essos), and it will be sold by either LF or Sansa as a forced marriage that was never consumated to a missing, irrelevant and most likely dead husband, and there's a chance she'll be married to another at the time too. For a claim on the Westerlands to fall into place Tyrion will need to return and if she were married have her husband removed, and by then she may have the other 3 firmly in hand.

It's far more likely to assume that LF is aiming for something nearer, like Riverrun or the Vale itself, or that he will be content with marrying Sansa himself. Claiming the North was what he said when he tried to placate Sansa and make her go along with his scheme with Harry the Heir. He needs her to be motivated to play her part, hence dangle Winterfell as a carrot.

Lyanna Stark perfectly states why Tyrion is still a hindrance for Sansa if she is to attempt any land or power consolidation of her own. As for LF's plans for Sansa, I also completely agree. I'd take his offer to her about Harry the Heir with a pretty large grain of salt. Re-read that conversation and you see that he is telling Sansa exactly what he thinks she wants to hear about knights and WF while carefully painting Harry as inferior when compared to him. I gotta admit, it's a pretty good sell on LF's part. From all of Sansa's previous thoughts, it's likely she wil be rather skeptical but we will have to wait until the next book to find out what happens.

[Kittykatknits]

Saying that to become a real woman, you need to loose your virginity does sound kind of what a pervert/creepy guy would tell a young girl to convince her to sleep with him (I could see Littlefinger saying that to Sansa :stillsick: ), so, as I was the one who brought out that argument, I’m going to reformulate my idea to make it sound a little less cheaply dirty… Sex is an extremely important part of life. Nobody can deny it, even if someone would decide never to sleep with anyone, his very existence is still due to sex… Without sex, the human race would be extinct from the surface of the earth… or from the Westeros and Essos continents ;) … Sex is also an intrinsic part of the human experience, and this is for everyone, men and women equally. If you decide not to make it a part of your life, it won’t make you a less worthy individual, but one can ask if you would be missing something in the end; same as love, friendship and having children, which are all also extremely important parts of the human experience not be missed. I don’t see any reasons why anyone would be forbidden from these basics of life, these (including sex) are what life is literally made of! As some of you have discussed earlier, women in the past history sometimes stayed virgin to empower themselves (virgin queens) or to keep control of their own destiny (as nuns did for example). I can totally understand why they did this, but it’s still sad as this very fact is symptomatic of a patriarchal society where women are ruled by men and have no power over themselves and their own sexuality. As long as a woman has to use her virginity as a weapon to gain power, it means that she isn’t that liberated and it certainly indicates a lack of equality between both sexes. Why would women always have to be better than the men to gain the same amount of power or the exact same political position? I want the women of ASOIAF to break free from these stupid and sexist conventions, Sansa first! I want Sansa to experience life to its fullest!!! …sorry if this got a little too philosophical…

This is wonderfully stated and speaks to one of the core themes for women in this series.

Queen Elizabeth is the most well-known example of the virgin queen with her single status shown as a great example of how a woman can seize power. On a superficial level, that is correct. She grew up seeing women being married to her father and suffering for being put into an inferior role within a patriarchal society. It's not a surprise that she doesn't want to be married. But, Elizabeth had to use her maiden status as a weapon because of the fact that she is in a patriarchy. That's not empowering, it's actually disempowering when you think about it.

I'd like to see women break free from sexist conventions as well but it is obviously not yet accepted in either Westeros or in our culture. Slut shaming still exists. I still remember being warned not to be one of "those girls" who "puts out" while in high school. This board still shows the struggle as well. There are posts all the time saying wives can't raped, whores' can't be raped, Cersei is a whore, etc. These same thoughts are also manifested within many of the male - and some female- characters within the books. It's quite obviously a theme that needs to be explored and is one of my favorites within the books.

I also want Sansa to experience ife to its fullest! I really enoyed reading your thoughts here.

[Queen Cersei I]

Yes but you must ask yourself what kind of idiot would want power more than children and sex.

Erm... countless people?

The real issue here is "what sort of woman would want power more than children and sex? To which I'd counter--plenty of perfectly healthy ones. A woman who wants power is no more different than a man who does so. (And lets face it-- all politicians, despite their poses, do want power to some extent, or they never would have chosen the career path they did.)

As for "choosing power over children and sex", one would think that one could have both. In our day in age. Men have without any issues or critisism whatsoever for numerous centuries. And yet, even in our day in age, women who want power are looked askance upon. It's denied, but it's also undeniably true. Look at the treatment of Hilary Clinton or any other major political figure. Whether or not one likes or loathes her is not the point; the point is that she has undeniably been treated far differently by the media than if she were a man. Her ambition is, almost without fail, insinuated to be "unnatural", if not downright sinister; her cleavage and body is frequently commented upon, etc.

Basically, answering the question "who would want power more than children and sex?" I'd say i have no issue with someone wanting power whatever their gender. And whether or not someone wants children and sex is entirely up to them; if someone does not want these things, I'd just assume that it is because of personal reasons of their own that are really none of my bussiness. (Unless I'm dating them or something.) I for one feel as though we already hear more than enough about the sex lives of politicians.

As for Queen Elizabeth I's reasons for staying single, she had pretty sound political reasons for staying so. Her sister's disastrous marriage; her own father's treatment of her mother and poor Katherine Howard; the fact that at that time, a woman's husband was her master and Lord, and being both the queen regent and submissive to a man would have been a cunnundrum; and because in the 1500's, it was difficult, if not impossible, for women to have a husband, children, and autonomy and rulership.

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@ Queen Cersei

She also had her cousin Mary Queen of Scots disasterous marriage to reflect upon, which also proved that the Queen basically could be pushed to the side when a son was born.