The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Lady Hodor]

I only just recently learned of the theory that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's baby before the Red Wedding.

And personally, I really quite love the idea, but only because of how tragically and suddenly Robb died.

As the theory goes, Jeyne was switched in Riverrun with some other girl, and escaped with the Blackfish.

But, unfortunatley, I don't think this theory is feasible.

If she were pregnant before Robb left, she would have been enormous by the time Jaime arrived in Riverrun.

And what exceedingly pregnant woman fit to bursting can swim in a raging river in silence and under half-open portcullises?

Not many that I know. Swimming alone would be excruciating for her, let alone in the violent current of the Trident.

Also, the girl that Jaime meets in Riverrun was very convincing if she were not Jeyne.

She cries and acts out and is evidently suffering heartbreak, as if she had in fact lost Robb.

That sort of thing would be hard for some ordinary girl to act, especially under the pressure of a seige.

Its noted that the appearence Catelyn sees and Jaime sees are somewhat slightly different.

But Jeyne might have simply lost a lot of weight in her grief to make her hips seem narrower than before.

Also grief can ravage a person's looks, making her perhaps less pretty in Jaime's eyes.

There is also the complication of Sybell Spicer, who it seems had Jeyne drink anti-pregnancy substances.

There has always been uncertainty of the Westerling Loyalty, some think it was always to the Lannisters.

Some think that their false bonding to the Starks through Robb was Tywin's deviant doings.

If they are Lannister loyal, then likely Sybell was telling the truth, and Jeyne could not be pregnant.

Also, Martin has done this "Identity Switch" a dozen times now, would he really do it again?

Thoughts?

[Buckwheat]

I agree that this theory may not be much more than wishful thinking, but it is a good light hope among all the war in Westeros and all the dead Starks ... otherwise, I do not really believe it is possible either. A baby would also not be able to do anything useful till the end of the series, so it would just inherit Robb's crown and somebody else should rule in his stead.

So, yes, wishful thinking, mostly.

[danm_999]

I think the theory is that Jeyne is switched with her younger sister Elenya, who is conspicously absent from Riverrun when Jaime is there. So Elenya was, in fact, not absent, but was pretending to be Jeyne. That makes more sense than Jeyne's appearance dramatically changing; Catelyn saw the 15 year old Jeyne, Jaime saw the 12 year old Eleyna.

So, as to your first point, Jaime wouldn't have seen a pregnant Jeyne since he didn't see Jeyne.

As to your second point, her sister is probably also upset and capable of selling grief.

As to your fourth point, while it's conceivable that Sybell would assist the Lannisters initially, it is not inconceivable that once she discovered her daughter was pregnant she would conceal it, because the most likely thing the Lannisters would do is kill Jeyne.

Basically, it's too soon to tell. It could be true that Robb has an heir, similarly it could also be true these things are red herrings.

[Fightbringer]

it may just be that she is not pregnant but she has escaped with the blackfish to play a somewhat important role in the future. However, if she were pregnant, there were likely numerous ways in which jeyne could've escaped, i dont think anyone how long it was from the red wedding to the fall of riverrun, she could well still be able to swim. It would explain brans vision of the woman in winterfell giving birth. Plus, brynden swore to robb before the wedding he'd look after jeyne, so if he were going to escape,he'd likely make some effort to get her out too. If Sybell told the Lannisters, then she'd risk losing all the honours the lannisters were to give her and her family, so she would try and cover it up. However, if it is eleyna, then how jaime can mistake a 12 year old for a fifteen year old is pretty shocking, and obviously if she is pregnant, which i dont think she is, there are various problems with the escape

[danm_999]

However, if it is eleyna, then how jaime can mistake a 12 year old for a fifteen year old is pretty shocking, and obviously if she is pregnant, which i dont think she is, there are various problems with the escape

It wouldn't really be that surprising. It's a very malleable time in a woman's life, so a 12 year old and 15 year old may not always be obviously distinguishable.

In fact, while most girls hit puberty between between 12 and 13, even in the 19th century the average age was back as far as 15.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My post from the WoW forum:

My theory is, Jeyne, Edmure, her sister and the Blackfish schemed together on the fly right before Riverrun surrendered. Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish without her mother knowing, and Sybell had no choice but to go along with it, pretending that Jeyne's sister was Jeyne. She can't tell Jaime that she lost Jeyne, so she has to go with the plot, unwillingly, because the alternative isn't an option. Jaime sees "Jeyne" with a dried sore and marks on her face and asks about them. Sybell says she resisted when they took her crown — but we never see this crown, and Jaime never receives it in surrender. My idea is, Sybell slapped Elenya around when she found out Jeyne had escaped, and those were the marks Jaime saw. As for "crossing the Lannisters" — Tywin is dead by then and the house is in disarray. If you're going to pull one over on them, now's the time.

Jeyne escaping with Brynden doesn't necessarily point to her being pregnant, but that makes the most sense. The only proof that Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea is what she told Jaime. I think it's possible for her to have hedged her bets — giving Jeyne a fertility potion when Robb was in power, with the knowledge that she could always help abort it if something happened. She never got the chance to abort the baby, but with Elenya there in Jeyne's place — who was assuredly not pregnant — Sybell could tell the moon tea lie and not get caught in it, for the foreseeable future. There's also the chance that Jeyne or someone else figured out that she was getting moon tea, and stopped taking the potion.

There are a few clues that something's up. The girls' hips don't match. Jeyne's sister isn't on the inventory when Jaime's there. He sees a girl with narrow hips who resembles Jeyne — it could easily be her sister. The girl covering her face and shredding her clothes could be ways to hide her identity from westermen who might recognize her, and hide an ill fit of clothes that weren't made for her, respectively. The Blackfish emphasized his vow to defend Robb's queen, so why would he abandon her?

The tricky part was always reconciling Sybell's scheming with the possibility of Jeyne being switched. But if you have the scenario I described above, there's no conflict.

I also want to add that hip bones don't change. They're bones. Bones. Not fat. Jaime also sees the family leaving (when he sees "Jeyne" covering her face with the hood), but Elenya still isn't mentioned.

[Jolene Brown]

I hate this theory so much, but I think it's correct - something I realized the other day was that even if Sybell was giving Jeyne moon tea in general after they got married, she might not have had the chance to do so the very first night Robb/Jeyne slept together, which would have been more of a surprise, and so perhaps that is when Jeyne conceived. I even wonder if that is why they are emphasizing the relationship more on the show, because they know it will ultimately play a role in the resolution of the final 2 books. The Bran vision totally sold me that it will happen, like it or not.

[Teal'c]

Actually swimming is quite easy while pregnant, and spending time in the water relieves swelling in the legs because the weight of the baby floats up off of the large blood vessels in the pelvic area. Also buoyancy is increased.

[bloodymime]

it may just be that she is not pregnant but she has escaped with the blackfish to play a somewhat important role in the future. However, if she were pregnant, there were likely numerous ways in which jeyne could've escaped, i dont think anyone how long it was from the red wedding to the fall of riverrun, she could well still be able to swim. It would explain brans vision of the woman in winterfell giving birth. Plus, brynden swore to robb before the wedding he'd look after jeyne, so if he were going to escape,he'd likely make some effort to get her out too. If Sybell told the Lannisters, then she'd risk losing all the honours the lannisters were to give her and her family, so she would try and cover it up. However, if it is eleyna, then how jaime can mistake a 12 year old for a fifteen year old is pretty shocking, and obviously if she is pregnant, which i dont think she is, there are various problems with the escape

Cat's very first description of Jeyne and her mother.

"Between them were a handsome older lady and a pretty maid who looked to be her daughter. There was another girl as well, near Sansa’s age."

Aside from the other implications like with all the detailed description we get from Jaime regarding Jeyne there isn't a single mention of the resemblance between her and her mother standing right next to her, Cat thinks of the daughter as near Sansa's age, as we've been seeing in Sansa's pov's she's been going through a sudden growth spurt and is getting a form a lot of men are beginning to admire. This girl could be doing the same. It could also explain how the consistent description of Jeyne as shy or timid turns to awkward.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

I tried to put togeter the time from Robb's departure to Jaime's arrival at Riverrun and came to approximately three months.

So, if she is pregnant three months is not a big problem for a swim.

Sybell is a Spicer, her grandmother is Maggy the Frog, same one who made Cersei's prophecy.

Could Sybell have more information or some insight about the future.

Is she able to use some maegi power?

These connections are no accident, I expect GRRM has some surprise for us in this front.

[The Wood of the Morning]

As much as I dislike the idea of yetanother character switch, the contradicting descriptions of the two Jeyne's is too hard for me to ignore, so yeah I'm fairly confident the Blackfish escaped with a pregnant Jeyne.

[richard_ba]

Elenya is 12 y.o. by ASOS, but it almost passed a year since the events around Cat and Jeyne's meeting, I'm pro for this theory, there are many points which sustain that. Blackfish had Stark's banner/sigil flying ontop Riverrun's tower, the description between Catelyn and Jaime contradicts each other, and also he says she has a flat chest, which hints that he is referring to a younger person, thus Elenya, I think that she somehow was smuggled, we even come across a Jeyne in the Crossing Inn, however she isn't described as carrying off a child and the other Sybell's daughter ain't even mentioned or present at the current events surrounding the end of the Siege of Riverrun. We as of yet, don't know, perhaps Jeyne had been switched perhaps not. Only time and GRRM are going to reveal it all

[richard_ba]

Oh my gosh, Jeyne is probably 16 at the end of AFFC, no way the girl who was present at the time Jaime finished the siege was Jeyne. And also, remembers that Sybell has no reason to have been scheming with Tywin, she had no love for the Lannister, Jeyne had already had a betrothal proposal rebuffed before by Kevan, and is extremely hinted that Maggy was killed by Cersei, as to further enhance it all, see how rude Jaime is by proposing a marriage with a bastard and calling her "twice turncloak"

[Howling Mad]

Jeyne being pregnant with the heir of Winterfell seems consistent with the importance GRRM places on birth and death through out the books.

[The Last Reyne]

I think this theory haas merit and her appearance will be part of the Stark's eventual vengence.

[Boss_Kenny]

I forget if Jon Snow was ever officially legitimized but my theory is that Robb's death would make Jon the King of the North and if you also believe that he is e child of Rhaegar and Lyanna would also give him a claim to the Iron Throne and that he and Dany would unite the "Ice and Fire" to fend off the others. I think Jon is the flying wolf in Brans dreams, being part stark part Targaryen. Obviously this also assumes he is alive in one for, or another.

[the trees have eyes]

I really think this is wishful thinking. Jeyne was 16 and Elenya 12. There is no way these two are going to be mistaken for eachother. The similarities in description are more substantial than the still marginal difference in the one comment about hips from two different character perspectives (Jaime and Catelyn).

Sybell Spicer is quite clear that she gave her daughter moon tea pretending it was a posset to improve her chances of becoming pregnant (what a mother!). Jeyne's grief when Jaime sees her is AFFC seemed real enough to me, there is no resaon to suspect it is feigned or she an imposter. The comment about the cut on her forehead resulting from when her mother literally snatched the crown off her head while they fought over it seemed real enough as well.

And the bit when Jaime asks if she is pregnant and she becomes almost hysterical and runs out of the room seemed pretty darn real to me too. She knew it was her duty to give Robb an heir, she loved him and tried her best and all the time her mother was betraying her and ensuring she didn't. I'd say that was Jeyne overcome with grief and guilt and the hurt of betrayal not her little sister.

[The Wood of the Morning]

Hope you don't mind me stealing your post Apple, but I thought i'd bring to light the points you made in a previous thread as they were very convincing.

1. The biggest being, the hips. Catelyn mentions them as being good (wide) and Jaime sees them as narrow. Catelyn has a reason to look at Jeyne's hips and make note of them. Jaime, near as I can tell, has none. Apart from the discrepancy, I don't see why Jaime would make a note of her hips specifically. Catelyn also rather grudgingly admits that Jeyne is very pretty, while Jaime is decidedly unimpressed.

2. The Westerlings are short a girl, as someone said. They have four, two boys and two girls. One boy is presumed dead at the Twins, and the other is mentioned by Sybell to Jaime as being there with her. No specific mention or sighting of the other daughter. The other daughter is younger than Jeyne and would be about 13 or so now. If Jaime saw what he thought was a 15-to-16-year-old girl with narrow hips, it could have been a tall 13-year-old who hadn't hit puberty yet. The use of another family member would also account for the girl's emotion and her otherwise normal resemblance to Jeyne.

3. Yes, it assumes that Sybell was playing Tywin/the Lannisters. People are eager to assume that she lied to the Starks, so why are they taking her word here at any higher value? Tywin already snubbed the Westerlings in the past when it came to marriage proposals, and the Spicers are Maggy the Frog's descendents. No reason for them to want to help the Lannisters, especially when, at the time, Robb was winning. Same thing with the moon tea — "Well Sybell was lying to Jeyne but obviously telling the truth to Tywin and Jaime." Based on what? Far as I can tell, Sybell has the best of both worlds: hefty marriage contracts with the Lannisters and a possible heir to the North, or at least a rallying point in Robb's queen.

4. We haven't had any POV in Riverrun since Catelyn left it. It's been essentially a blackout. No way to know for sure what's going on or what people are planning.

5. The Blackfish tells Jaime that he swore to defend Robb's queen. Which obviously means that at brass tacks, he'd take off and leave her. Right?

6. "Jeyne" shreds her clothing and covers her face. Jaime assumes it's in mourning. But shredding the clothes would hide an ill fit (they weren't made for her), and covering her face would keep the Westermen from recognizing that it isn't her.

7. If this is true, we have one common Jeyne pretending to be a noble, and one noble Jeyne off pretending to be a commoner. The symmetry is just darling.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I really think this is wishful thinking. Jeyne was 16 and Elenya 12. There is no way these two are going to be mistaken for eachother. The similarities in description are more substantial than the still marginal difference in the one comment about hips from two different character perspectives (Jaime and Catelyn).

Actually Elenya by that time is probably closer to 13, and reminds Catelyn of Sansa. Sansa's bloomed quite a bit recently. And of course the similarities are there — they're sisters. Why do we only see/hear about two Westerling siblings when there should be three?

Sybell Spicer is quite clear that she gave her daughter moon tea pretending it was a posset to improve her chances of becoming pregnant (what a mother!).

And people don't lie. Ever.

Jeyne's grief when Jaime sees her is AFFC seemed real enough to me, there is no resaon to suspect it is feigned or she an imposter.

I'd say there's every reason to suspect an impostor.

The comment about the cut on her forehead resulting from when her mother literally snatched the crown off her head while they fought over it seemed real enough as well.

Where's the crown then? Why doesn't Sybell give it to Jaime?

And the bit when Jaime asks if she is pregnant and she becomes almost hysterical and runs out of the room seemed pretty darn real to me too. She knew it was her duty to give Robb an heir, she loved him and tried her best and all the time her mother was betraying her and ensuring she didn't. I'd say that was Jeyne overcome with grief and guilt and the hurt of betrayal not her little sister.

And Elenya, who was probably loyal to Robb like her siblings, has good reason to be upset. Especially if she knows that Jeyne really is pregnant and is worried about her welfare.

[Ran]

Eleyna isn't "missing". She's just not discussed....

Well, not exactly not discussed. Jaime says outright that he's aware that Lady Spicer is in Riverrun with three children:

". . . unless I hand you Riverrun. Is this where you threaten to hang Edmure?" Beneath his bushy brows, Tully’s eyes were stone. "My nephew is marked for death no matter what I do. So hang him and be done with it. I expect that Edmure is as weary of standing on those gallows as I am of seeing him there."

Ryman Frey is a bloody fool. His mummer’s show with Edmure and the gallows had only made the Blackfish more obdurate, that was plain. "You hold Lady Sybelle Westerling and three of her children. I’ll return your nephew in exchange for them."

"As you returned Lady Catelyn’s daughters?"

Jaime did not allow himself to be provoked. "An old woman and three children for your liege lord. That’s a better bargain than you could have hoped for."

And, what's this? Lady Westerling brings her up in conversation with Jaime as well:

"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sister."

So... I don't get it. Jaime knows both girls are there. How is he supposed to miss the fact that Eleyna is missing? "Oh, they have some other girl pretending to be Eleyna, too," seems to me the obvious answer... and don't you realize how far-fetched it all seems?

So the idea that Jaime has somehow lost track of this fact and now believes it's just Jeyne and Rollam is very hard to be credulous about. The idea that there's a double-fake going on, Eleyna pretending to be Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of pretending to be Eleyna, is very difficult to be credlous about. This is one of those ideas that sounds nice on paper, but the logistics make no sense unless the author is very heavily putting his thumb on the scale to get an unrealistic outcome.

The hip thing? A mistake by GRRM or indicating that Catelyn and Jaime have different standards when it comes to what narrow and wide hips are.