The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Sweet Sister]

I really enjoy this theory and I do think it's plausible but there are several factors that cause me to wonder. I totally disregard the hips "clue" that many have already argued to death but seriously, where is Jeyne's sister? Correct me if I'm wrong but is she the only missing family member other than the dead squire? Why would she not accompany her older sister when she leaves Riverrun? Also, to me the Blackfish seems adament on following his orders from Robb, even after death. It seems he would definitely try to sneak Jeyne out pregnant or not. But if she's not pregnant, it seems like an unnecessary risk. Someone other than the family had to be in on the scheme, perhaps that's how we find out later? A character switch-a-roo is not something foreign to Martin's style of story telling. I wouldn't be surprised if this theory turns out to be true.

[Jayce]

Could it be possible that only 1 Westerling girl leaves Riverrun and even though Jamie knows there are 2, he is only concerned with Jayne, so as long as he sees her he assumes the other is around when really she might not be?

What I mean is GRRM does not mention Elenya in the group who leave riverrun and people have argued that this is not because she is not present but because she is not note worthy.

Well could that go a step further to say that the reason Jamie didn't notice Elenya is because she is not note worthy to him and the fact the GRRM doesn't mention her at all is the clue to us that she is in fact missing? (meaning a switch is still possible)

I know I said I changed my mind, but I liked this one so much its hard to let go!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ I wondered that, too. I think not mentioning Elenya goes both ways. I mean, if she's not important enough for Jaime to note, why couldn't she also not be important enough for Jaime to know she's even "gone"? People keep talking about how far-fetched it is for Elenya to impersonate Jeyne and someone else to impersonate Elenya, but what if no one is impersonating Elenya?

[Maxpey]

We'd have less story then. Video game players call that padding - filling your time with useless content intended just to extend the playtime. In fact, the entirety of the series is a big case of this, since it could all have been solved in the first book if not for the stick inside Ned Stark's rectal cavity.

As much as I like the series, you are right to a certain degree about "padding." While I wouldn't say all the plot lines are "padding" I do feel that sometimes GRRM has the characters take action or engage in conduct that was highly questionable because he felt it was necessary to advance a particular story arc at the cost of adding length to the books.

[jlk7e]

I think people are being awfully dismissive of the hips. There are certainly errors in the books - even within individual books. For example, in A Game of Thrones, in Catelyn I Ned tells Catelyn that he hasn't seen the Baratheon children since Tommen was nursing, and is surprised to discover that Tommen is now 7. Two chapters later, in Eddard I, Ned remembers the last time he saw Robert was during the Greyjoy Rebellion, 9 years before.

This seems like a fairly evident mistake - the dates don't add up, and while we could retcon some kind of visit where Ned saw Tommen and Cersei but not Robert, that seems highly unlikely.

The hips thing, though, seems really hard to reconcile with just being a mistake. In Storm of Swords, Jeyne's wide, child-bearing hips are basically the only physical characteristic that Catelyn notices about her, and she specifically mentions it several times. In Feast for Crows, Jaime then specifically mentions Jeyne's narrow hips. Could it be a mistake? Of course. But it seems hard to imagine how Martin could have forgotten what is basically the only physical characteristic he'd given Jeyne.

As far as recognizing people, that is much *harder* in a world without photographs, not easier. In 16th century France, Arnaud du Tilh spent years pretending to be Martin Guerre in Martin Guerre's home town, and it wasn't until someone came through the town who knew that the real Martin had lost a leg that anybody called him on it.

This seems to hold within the story, as well. We have a very clear example of somebody not recognizing a girl he's met several times before in Yohn Royce. Royce had not only met Sansa at Winterfell when he took Waymar up to the Wall; he also saw her again, probably a few times, during his time in King's Landing in Game of Thrones. Remember that Sansa was seated at a place of honor next to Joffrey during the feast at the tourney - Royce would certainly have seen her again then. And yet he's basically completely unable to recognize her when he meets her again as "Alayne" in Feast.

And many of the northern lords have certainly met Arya before, but none of them recognize her at Harrenhal, and none of them are willing to admit to recognizing the impostor at Barrowton or Winterfell. Indeed, even *Harwin* only recognizes Arya when she announces herself to him, and Myrcella and Tommen don't recognize her when she's chasing cats.

Of course we don't know for sure, but the theory is perfectly plausible, and there's no reason to be dismissive of it.

[richard_ba]

worthy marriages, bastards period

Elenya whereabouts was told to be away. There is a lot of difference about a girl who is almost 16 and another who is close to be 13, yes and no. I've seen myself girls who are 12 who look like 16 and 16 who look like 12, but the body factor from a girl with 16 compared to one with 20, in the medieval era, couldn't be so noticeable, even if no ill has been committed to her, if she hadn't lost her maidenhood, but wide hips are wide hips, no matter which one describes it, noway for a woman with 44, Cat, describe a girl with narrow hips, wide.

Catelyn goes further on describing her as undeniable pretty, which Jaime says she ain't a girl to lose a kingdom for.

[richard_ba]

worthy marriages, bastards period

Elenya whereabouts was told to be away. There is a lot of difference about a girl who is almost 16 and another who is close to be 13, yes and no. I've seen myself girls who are 12 who look like 16 and 16 who look like 12, but the body factor from a girl with 16 compared to one with 20, in the medieval era, couldn't be so noticeable, even if no ill has been committed to her, if she hadn't lost her maidenhood, but wide hips are wide hips, no matter which one describes it, noway for a woman with 44, Cat, describe a girl with narrow hips, wide.

Catelyn goes further on describing her as undeniable pretty, which Jaime says she ain't a girl to lose a kingdom for.

[richard_ba]

No-one has said that. People in this tread have said that GRRM admits he makes errors. Which is true. They have concluded therefore that this hips discrepancy COULD be an error. Which is possible, but GRRM has not said so.

GRRM has said nothing specific about the hips being an error, and hence the hips could be a clue, as I think they are.

[sic] Renly green, then blue eyes [sic]

[dtones520]

The giveaway for me is the hips. It makes sense for a mother, Catelyn to notice that and think that it is a good thing a Queen has wide hips to bare an heir. But for a man, more importantly a man who isn't thinking about a sons chances of having a baby, to notice a woman's hips is a bit strange. I have never, as a straight male, looked at a woman and said "god, she has some nice hips." Jaime meets plenty of women in his POVs, but never once mentions anyone's hips...until he meets Jeyne. Then, suddenly he notices her hips.

By the time I read AFFC, i had only read ASOS once, but as soon as Jeynes hips were mentioned by Jaime I had a huge WTF moment, as Jeyne having wide hips was one of the few descriptions we got of her, I find it hard to believe GRRM was that oblivious to a character he created. Especially an essential character like Robb's wife. Hips arent like messing up eye color, they are either wide, normal or narrow. One person sees her as having good child bearing wide hips, another sees her as having narrow hips the two complete opposite ends of the hip spectrum.

Also, everyone brings up Sybelle Spicer and say well why would she lie to Tywin and Jaime? Where on the same token if she is telling the truth to The Lannisters, she is lying to her daughter. If you ask me, I see it more likely that she lies to the Lannisters than to lie to her own flesh and blood. Jeyne marrying Robb is a huge up jump for her family. If Robb never came along, Jeyne would have married some off branch of house Lannister's son or some other middle of the pack lord in the West. Instead Sybelles daughter marries the head of one of the great houses in Westeros, the longest standing house and possibly the most respected house. What incentive did she have to betray House Stark? Especially when there was no love between the Westerlings and house Lannister.

[Ravage]

Of course Jeyne is pregnant and fled, the Jaime chapter following the surrender of Riverrun is almost full of evidence:

1. Jaimes threat to kill Edmures child, struck home in more than one way. This convinced Edmure that Jeyne had to be brought to safety.

2. The other Westerling daughter is not in the inventory after the surrender, as stated otherwhere on this forum.

3. She is described as huddling in the chair like a child. Not like a queen.

4. The line the false Jeyne delivers sounds rehearsed: "The crown was mine. Robb made it for me. I loved him!" That is all she says. She also acts more childishly than someone who had been, even briefly, queen would be. Trying to flee the room and so forth.

5. Her mother leaves the room with her "lips pressed primly" as if she is described as holding her tongue/keeping a secret.

6. When told to kill Lord westerlings daughter should she flee, Prester almost blurts out the truth, but is interrupted by jaime:

“Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling’s daughter as well.”

Ser Forley seemed taken aback. “Gawen’s girl? She’s—”

“—the Young Wolf’s widow,” Jaime finished, “and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us.”

“As you say, my lord. She will be watched.”.

Why would someone refer to the Young Wolfs Queen/widow as "Gawens girl"? Should it not be more natural for him to refer to her as "The young wolfs widow?" Only the younger of the daughters would still be called "Gawens girl" in this sort of spinal reaction/reflex.

7. She is wearing the same "disguise" as Jeyne Poole wore when sent north from Kings Landing; a cloak. "Jeyne" is hidden beneath a cloak, so no one gets a good look at her. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled, beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn.

8. Dermont of the Rainwoods, who searches the northside of the river for Brynden, is savaged by hundreds of wolfes, led by a direwolf. Why would the wolfes attack armed men in mail? Because they are protecting their own; the heir to the Direwolf banner.

[Melq]

Of course Jeyne is pregnant and fled, the Jaime chapter following the surrender of Riverrun is almost full of evidence:

1. Jaimes threat to kill Edmures child, struck home in more than one way. This convinced Edmure that Jeyne had to be brought to safety.

2. The other Westerling daughter is not in the inventory after the surrender, as stated otherwhere on this forum.

3. She is described as huddling in the chair like a child. Not like a queen.

4. The line the false Jeyne delivers sounds rehearsed: "The crown was mine. Robb made it for me. I loved him!" That is all she says. She also acts more childishly than someone who had been, even briefly, queen would be. Trying to flee the room and so forth.

5. Her mother leaves the room with her "lips pressed primly" as if she is described as holding her tongue/keeping a secret.

6. When told to kill Lord westerlings daughter should she flee, Prester almost blurts out the truth, but is interrupted by jaime:

“Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling’s daughter as well.”

Ser Forley seemed taken aback. “Gawen’s girl? She’s—”

“—the Young Wolf’s widow,” Jaime finished, “and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us.”

“As you say, my lord. She will be watched.”.

Why would someone refer to the Young Wolfs Queen/widow as "Gawens girl"? Should it not be more natural for him to refer to her as "The young wolfs widow?" Only the younger of the daughters would still be called "Gawens girl" in this sort of spinal reaction/reflex.

7. She is wearing the same "disguise" as Jeyne Poole wore when sent north from Kings Landing; a cloak. "Jeyne" is hidden beneath a cloak, so no one gets a good look at her. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled, beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn.

8. Dermont of the Rainwoods, who searches the northside of the river for Brynden, is savaged by hundreds of wolfes, led by a direwolf. Why would the wolfes attack armed men in mail? Because they are protecting their own; the heir to the Direwolf banner.

I noticed the same in Ser Forley Prester conversation I wrote it on Page 2 in this thread, its seems obvious just a few lines after the "hips" difference, I also noticed a small detail that could led to Jeyne being pregnant :

About pregnancy in aSoS: Catelyn Chapter when they start the travel to the Twins.

All the time the king and queen were talking,Grey Wind prowled around them, stopping only to shake the water from his coat and bare his teeth at the rain.

This doesn't say much, but the behavior is strange because before Grey Wind was acting strange/hostile against Westerlings.

[jlk7e]

If Prester knew that the girl was Eleyna, why wouldn't he tell Jaime?

[Faint]

I wonder, what do those who buy into this theory imagine will come about as a result of Jeyne Westerling being free and pregnant? Which POV will she feature in?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Prester knew that the girl was Eleyna, why wouldn't he tell Jaime?

I think the clue there is, "As you say, my lord." As in, he's deferring to Jaime, maybe considers it a harmless mistake and doesn't want to "correct" him. Anyway, for me, the takeaway from that exchange isn't necessarily that Prester knows it's Elenya, it's that Jaime says that Jeyne is "twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were to ever escape us." Seems like some foreshadowing to me.

And @Faint, I think it depends entirely on where the Blackfish goes. I could see him making for the Vale, running into the Brotherhood, hiking up North, etc. So you have Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, or any of the northern POVs as possibilities.

[ghost the direwolf]

I so do not want her to be pregnant at all. The Westerling should not get to rule Winterfell. I know she was innocent in all the scheming but i just never was able to like her or feel for her.

[houseHB]

I think this theory has merit to it after-all, why else would they show Robb and Jeyne/Talisa making love on the show, also showing them getting married? So the child is not a bastard and has a legit claim to Winterfell.

[Alester Florent]

It provides a bit of extra motivation for the Blackfish's escape, too. Realistically, he knows the game's up as soon as Jaime appears on the scene. He's fully prepared to die defending Riverrun and it looks like the Tullys are to all intents and purposes whatever happens, so from that perspective going to the Wall is about the best that can be hoped for, short of a glorious death. Oh, sure, he could give the Lannisters the run-around and organise guerrilla fighting against them, which is what Jaime is afraid of, but other than spite there's not a lot of point.

Moreover, the escape endangers Edmure and his unborn child, because Edmure's breaching the terms of his agreement with Jaime. With Edmure plus child dead, Brynden himself an unwed fugitive and declared traitor with no forces, that realistically means the end of House Tully. (We know what he thinks of Lysa, even if he hasn't heard she's dead). Brynden might always have gone his own way, but it seems unlikely that he'd endanger the future of his house for something as relatively trivial as not wanting to go to the Wall. Or that Edmure would connive in his doing so.

Unless, that is, there's something greater at stake, and he's protecting his unbornking and what to all intents and purposes is the future of the kingdom, by helping Robb's widow and unborn heir escape. (Remember, as far as those in Riverrun know at this point, all the Starks are gone or missing save for Arya and, debatably, Jon, who Brynden doesn't seem to have much time for anyway.)

To be honest, I don't like the idea that there's been another identity switch, but it makes sense, and would explain a couple of uncharacteristic discrepancies and what looks like a bit of an oddly selfish decision by the Blackfish otherwise.

[Ravage]

I wonder, what do those who buy into this theory imagine will come about as a result of Jeyne Westerling being free and pregnant? Which POV will she feature in?

Brynden will go to the Vale, where his nephew and cousin of the unborn child rules. There he will meet and identify sansa.

[Faint]

I'm uncertain about how much this can possibly dovetail into this particular theory but I'm slowly starting to become convinced that Jeyne Westerling is the "younger queen" from Cersei's prophecy. And whether we saw the real Jeyne or not, I do not think she is pregnant. Rickon Stark was put into the story for a reason and GRRM isn't wasting several Davos chapters extracting Rickon only for the latter to improve insignificant in the end.

[Lady Hodor]

@ Faint

But the "Younger Queen" is specifially more beautiful than Cersei, and Cersei is signifcantly stunning to everyone,

Whereas Jeyne was not noted to be particulalary imaculate, I think Catelyn only says "pretty".

I suppose it could be her though, as the "Beauty" thing may not necessarily mean outer beauty.