The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[pitakon]

So this time around with Jeyne dying on childbirth, it would be "Promise me Blackfish, promise me....."

[ServantOnIce]

I like how Lady Stoneheart got Queen Jeyne's Crown back from Ryman Frey . . . . #TeamStoneheart

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I like how Lady Stoneheart got Queen Jeyne's Crown back from Ryman Frey . . . . #TeamStoneheart

That wasn't Jeyne's crown, it was Robb's. The Frey-Lannister camp hadn't been inside Riverrun yet to take the crown when Ryman had it and Jaime sent him away.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jaime did report that the other 2 children were present, they are not referred to specifically but he does mention this but there is no real reason for him to really pay much attention to the other 2 kids.This whole thing about Elenya stepping in for Jeyne and not being present is shit.

If there's no reason for him to notice her if she's there, there's no reason for him to notice that she's not.

[Sword in the Morning]

Remember the "fertility posset" Lady Sybell had been giving Jeyne to drink every day? Yeah. Moon Tea. That's why Jeyne couldn't get pregnant no matter how much she and Robb tried. As much as I wish otherwise, Jeyne isn't pregnant and most likely did not escape with the Blackfish.

[richard_ba]

Remember the "fertility posset" Lady Sybell had been giving Jeyne to drink every day? Yeah. Moon Tea. That's why Jeyne couldn't get pregnant no matter how much she and Robb tried. As much as I wish otherwise, Jeyne isn't pregnant and most likely did not escape with the Blackfish.

Sybell is as reliable as Teena Merryweather, Bryden Blackfish promised he would protect the queen at all cost and Sybell by all accounts is more prejudiced than benefited by siding with Lannisters (from a queen, to a widowed and a child which can't marry for 2 years and a betrothal to some bastard or low cast cadet Lannister), Jaime's last pov at Riverrun prove it through. Only Rolph Spicer really took advantage of it, because he got promoted to Lord.

I can see the next prologue being Jeyne's pregnancy and the child's birth and her last words

"Promise me Bryden, promise me..."

[Talvivaara]

Remember the "fertility posset" Lady Sybell had been giving Jeyne to drink every day? Yeah. Moon Tea. That's why Jeyne couldn't get pregnant no matter how much she and Robb tried. As much as I wish otherwise, Jeyne isn't pregnant and most likely did not escape with the Blackfish.

There are many ways Jeyne could have gotten pregnant:

-Jeyne stopped taking the "fertility potion"/moon tea. Perhaps because she got suspicious of something or because she thought she wouldn't need it after Robb left for the wedding.

-The moon tea didn't work. (Not even modern day birth control is 100% effective.)

-Sybill lied to Jaime. I think it's unlikely she wasn't working for the Lannisters, but it's a possibility. She is Maggy the Frog's offspring after all.

Following possibility came to my mind: What if Sybill didn't go along with the Jeyne switch just because she wanted to cover it up to have her prizes, what if she was forced to do it?

Suppose Jeyne started to suspect something about the fertility potion and asked a maester about it right after Robb left. It would have been revealed that Sybill had given her moon tea, and was really working for the Lannisters. The Blackfish would probably have imprisoned her and she would have lost Jeyne's trust. If she was a known traitor and prisoner in Riverrun, Blackfish could very well have forced her to act according to their plan. Jaime described Sybill as stiff and stern-looking, maybe part of that could have been her uneasiness in that situation.

[moe.]

However, if it is eleyna, then how jaime can mistake a 12 year old for a fifteen year old is pretty shocking, and obviously if she is pregnant, which i dont think she is, there are various problems with the escape

Well. A girl Sansa's age is playing the part of Arya. The age difference in Arya and Sansa is about the same as Jeyne and Eleyna. And we don't see anyone questioning it then. So seems like a pretty acceptable switch to me. Plus I don't think it was like 8 months from the red wedding until jaime takes riverrun. I would say like. 3 maybe.

[Brewmaster]

The giveaway for me is the hips. It makes sense for a mother, Catelyn to notice that and think that it is a good thing a Queen has wide hips to bare an heir. But for a man, more importantly a man who isn't thinking about a sons chances of having a baby, to notice a woman's hips is a bit strange. I have never, as a straight male, looked at a woman and said "god, she has some nice hips."

I think you might be in the minority on this. Hips are a very noted element of a woman by men. Particularly the curves involved in the waist-hip-thigh ratio. As a man, its one of the first things that I do notice and you often find it discussed on (ahem) more adult websites frequented by men.

And with that said, I do think the hips comment is taken way overblown by everybody. I don't know if it was a mistake by GRRM, but I hardly think it matters. As a grown man, who prefers grown women to budding girls myself, what I would see in hips is going to be vastly different than what someone like Catelyn might think or notice. I'm attracted to a woman with womanly curves, not a girl that hasn't finished developing. Cat may very well see a girl with the structure that is going to develop just fine into childbearing hips (hell, woman's hips literally spread apart to accommodate pregnancy ). Jaime, if he's like me (I'm 36) likely sees a young girl without a womanly shape.

It's not unusual in the least. I don't know the ages of most people here, but Hell I was just on a college campus this last weekend to help with an event for some entering freshmen and most of these girls (that are 18) look like children, and to my eyes I would say have narrow hips, despite the fact that logically I know quite a lot of them are going to grow to have plenty wide hips in a few years.

They both say she's slender. Well, slender 16 year old girls really don't have wide hips. A 16 year old with wide hips you really wouldn't call slender. Cat noticing her hips pretty much has to be talking about potential for growth, not the immediate reality of her body.

[Rose Tyler]

I tried to put togeter the time from Robb's departure to Jaime's arrival at Riverrun and came to approximately three months.

So, if she is pregnant three months is not a big problem for a swim.

Sybell is a Spicer, her grandmother is Maggy the Frog, same one who made Cersei's prophecy.

Could Sybell have more information or some insight about the future.

Is she able to use some maegi power?

These connections are no accident, I expect GRRM has some surprise for us in this front.

Yes! I doubt Maggy told Cersei everything she saw given C's attitude. Especially if she foresaw her own great grandaughter was the one who would bring C down. If the younger more beautiful Queen is Jeyne who knows how long Maggy and her family have moved toward Jeyne marrying Rob.

Sybil might have known Rob was going to die but not how and simply lied to the Lannisters, both Tywin and Jaime. I would have to look up the exact quote but Cat tell's Jeyne the best thing she can do for Rob is get with child quickly and Jeyne replies "that's what my mother said, she makes me special tea." She may be innocent but if her mother is a Spicer wouldn't Jeyne have some idea of what was in that?

Jeyne might be clingly and innocent but the girl described by Jaime seems way more immature, perhaps even a little over the top in her grief. I picture Jeyne by this time angry not still sobbing and mooning. And I'll have to go back and look but what's the timing of the Red Wedding and the Siege of Riverrun? couldn't they have moved Jeyne before the Siege and already had her sister in place?

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

-Sending a pregnant Jeyne out swimming with Blackfish would have been risky, depending on how pregnant she was.

-But having a clearly pregnant Jeyne walk up to Jaime and say "Hi, I'm pregnant with Robb's baby!" would have posed a far greater risk to the baby's health.

If someone considered that baby's health to be of the utmost importance, I have a strong suspicion which option they would

have picked.

Even so, Edmure may have lied about the method Blackfish used to escape Riverrun. The castle could have some hidden tunnels or something.

[richard_ba]

-Sending a pregnant Jeyne out swimming with Blackfish would have been risky, depending on how pregnant she was.

-But having a clearly pregnant Jeyne walk up to Jaime and say "Hi, I'm pregnant with Robb's baby!" would have posed a far greater risk to the baby's health.

If someone considered that baby's health to be of the utmost importance, I have a strong suspicion which option they would

have picked.

Even so, Edmure may have lied about the method Blackfish used to escape Riverrun. The castle could have some hidden tunnels or something.

It has been proved that pregnant women do swimm better at risky circumstances than non preggo women, the survival instinct reacts to the environment. It is funny though, because my mother, who is also reading ASoIaF, asked me if Elenya and Jeyne were switched, and I asked how and why would she do that, she told me it would be because she was carrying Robb's offspring, then I pointed out to the fact that how she would escape with Brynden if she was pregnant, that it would be difficult. Then she told me a story of a young and pregnant girl who crossed a river by swimming, to run away from her abusive and bad father.

[Sanset]

The Westerlings know Tywin is dead, so they don't have to fear 'The Rains of Castamere' so much. The living Lannisters are not as ferocious as Tywin was.

Besides, if they side with the Starks and the Tullys, Queen Jeyne's baby will be King or Queen in the North. What Jeyne would be if they keep side with the Lannisters? A soiled widow forever, just like Jaime is an oath-breaker in the eyes of everyone else.

It seems the wisest thing to do is to hide Jeyne with Brynden, and walk the thin ice with the Lannisters as far as they have to.

PS: Interesting thread!

[eRome]

I'm still mad the the TV show changed her character to someone from the East. It doesn't make sense. One of the things that stings the most to the Freys and Karstarks is that, after shedding blood fighting the Lannisters, Robb goes and marries the daughter of one of Lord Tywin's bannerman! It's another slap in the face!

[Mother of Dragons]

The Bran vision totally sold me that it will happen, like it or not.

What Bran vision?? I can't remember anything from the last book except Frey Pie!! So frustrating!

[Mother of Dragons]

Where's the crown then? Why doesn't Sybell give it to Jaime?

Didn't the "Queen of Whores" end up with the crown? Or was that something else?

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I'm still mad the the TV show changed her character to someone from the East. It doesn't make sense. One of the things that stings the most to the Freys and Karstarks is that, after shedding blood fighting the Lannisters, Robb goes and marries the daughter of one of Lord Tywin's bannerman! It's another slap in the face!

I agree. I don't know how the show is going to continue this storyline with the switch to Talisa from Volantis. It won't make sense.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

In fact, the Talisa switch is the big factor that makes me disbelieve this theory. They would need GRRM's thumbs up before doing it, wouldn't they?

As to how I feel, on the one hand I'd like to believe Robb left a son, on the other hand I'm a bit tired of all the faked deaths.

[Barty]

I don't like Jeyne(I blame her for sleeping with Robb when he is in a vulnerable situation), and I sincerely hope she is not pregnant - I want the next King in the North to be Rickon with Jon as regent.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

In fact, the Talisa switch is the big factor that makes me disbelieve this theory. They would need GRRM's thumbs up before doing it, wouldn't they?

As to how I feel, on the one hand I'd like to believe Robb left a son, on the other hand I'm a bit tired of all the faked deaths.

The fact that the show diverged means there was probably a reason it needed to diverge. What reason you ask?

If the "switch theory" is true, the show wouldn't have been able to pull this trick at all since we would be seeing the actresses. That means the show must have needed to create something divergent for Robb's wife in this case.

If the "switch theory" is not true, then the show could have simply left her as the same Jeyne and the story would have worked.

Also, Oona is so damn fine she really needs a reason to keep being important to the series.