The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Every]

If Jeyne will be the queen, who will be her King? Will Jon do what Ned did when Brandon died and marry Jeyne to honor Robb and raise his child?

Wait, what? People think Robb wasn't Ned's now?

[carmela28]

I think that Jeyne is pregnant and did escape with the Blackfish. There's too many little oddities in the story: Edmure's smile as he departs, the Blackfish's mysterious and uncharacteristic escape, emotional "fake" Jeyne, Sybell's conversaton to Jaime, the hips discrepancy, Prestor's reaction.

And, if this wasn't enough, she is related to Maggy the Frog (great granddaughter?). Its too much to think that Jeyne simply rode off into the sunset. And, if we see her again, it must be because she is carrying Robb's child. Does she have any other importance to this story?

I'm uncertain about how much this can possibly dovetail into this particular theory but I'm slowly starting to become convinced that Jeyne Westerling is the "younger queen" from Cersei's prophecy. And whether we saw the real Jeyne or not, I do not think she is pregnant. Rickon Stark was put into the story for a reason and GRRM isn't wasting several Davos chapters extracting Rickon only for the latter to improve insignificant in the end.

I'm not convinced that she is the "younger queen" from the prophecy. How would she "cast her down and take all that (she) holds dear?"

As much as the signs seem to point to her pregnancy, I don't like it because - as Faint says - what then is Rickon's purpose in the story? To run around Skagos with Osha and Shaggydog only to die when he returns to Westeros? And what of Robb's decree that is headed to Greywater Watch with Mormomt and Glover? So the the Stark heir will be Robb's child with a young woman that we barely know. Meh.

[Talvivaara]

Hi, first post here. I like this theory and I think it is very plausible. I think that Jeyne did escape, and probably because she was pregnant. There are just too many oddities otherwise. If the theory isn't true, I think it's a deliberate red herring, not a coincidence. I try to put together everything that supports the theory in my opinion. First some textual evidence. All the quotes are from AFFC.

First, when Jaime meets Blackfish.

..."My nephew is marked for death no matter what I do. So hang him and be done with it. I expect that Edmure is as weary of standing on those gallows as I am of seeing him there."

Text left out...

"Will you exchange the Westerlings for Edmure?"

"No. My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe. I will not hand her over to a Frey noose."

"The girl has been pardoned. No harm will come to her. You have my word on that."

"Your word of honor?" Ser Brynden raised an eyebrow. "Do you even know what honor is?"

Text left out...

..." Does it matter how the boy perished? He's no less dead, and his kingdom died when he did."

"You must be blind as well as maimed, ser. Lift your eyes, and you will see that the direwolf still flies above our walls."

So, Blackfish has sworn to keep Jeyne safe. He turns down the offer to switch her family to his nephew, while he fully expects him to get hanged. ...And a couple of days later, he runs away alone, leaving Jeyne to Frey and Lannister mercy, even though he doesn't seem to trust Jaime's promise not to harm her. Doesn't sound quite right to me. The last line of Blackfish that I quoted sounds rather suspicious as well. Who is he flying that flag for? And why did he escape? I think he understood that his escape might put Edmure and his family in danger, so he wouldn't have done it lightly. What could he do for the Stark cause alone? If he escaped with Jeyne to protect her, all of this would make more sense.

When Jaime meets Jeyne.

Jaime shoved the map aside. "Show them in." At least the girl did not vanish too. Jeyne Westerling had been Robb Stark's queen, the girl who cost him everything. With a wolf in her belly, she could have proved more dangerous than the Blackfish.

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for.

Nice foreshadowing there, and it seems a bit strange to point out that Jeyne did not escape. I think that the "Jeyne" here is her sister Elenya. It's not impossible to mistake a 12-13 year old girl for a 15-16 year old, if she is early developed and wears adult clothes and hairdo. She might also have a bit of makeup or padding in her breasts. And people will often see what they expect to see. If Jaime knows that Jeyne is around 15-16, then that's what he sees, although he does think the girl looks childish. To me, it seemed like "Jeyne" was overacting a bit. It's not a very valid argument since we didn't see the real Jeyne so much and grief can change a person, but that's the feeling I got.

When Jeyne and co. leave Riverrun:

Jeyne never saw him at all. The widow rode with downcast eyes, huddled beneath a hooded cloak. Underneath its heavy folds, her clothes were finely made, but torn. She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized. That could not have pleased her mother.

The hooded cloak and downcast eyes could be to conceal her from those who might recognize her, and the torn clothes to conceal ill fit. Also, there's no mention of Jeyne's sister in the company, so might be she wasn't there.

People who chased Blackfish:

The next day ser Dermot of the Rainwood returned to the castle, empty-handed. When asked what he'd found, he answered, "Wolves. Hundreds of the bloody beggars." He'd lost two sentries to them. The wolves had come out of the dark to savage them. "Armed men in mail and boiled leather, and yet the beasts had no fear of them. Before he died, Jate said the pack was led by a she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it. The wolves got in amongst our horse lines too. The bloody bastards killed my favourite bay."

Convenient that Nymeria's pack attacked the pursuers of the Blackfish so they were forced to return. Attacking armed and mailed men seems a bit extreme. Have the direwolves ever gone to such great lengths to defend anyone but a Stark?

Then some pure speculation.

I think that Sybill really gave Jeyne moon tea, but Jeyne either stopped taking it for some reason or became pregnant in spite of it. When she was pregnant, it was clear she couldn't be handed out to the Lannisters, so Blackfish kept Riverrun even if it was hopeless. When Edmure was returned, they orchestrated the escape. Either Sybill was in on it, if she wanted to save her grandchild, or then she was not, and found out only after Jeyne had gone. It was in her best interests to cover up Jeyne's escape however (otherwise no prizes for her), so she played along. I think Jeyne could have managed the escape. She might know how to swim (Crag was in the coast after all), and pregnancy doesn't affect swimming abilities that much. And she needn't have been a superb swimmer, since Blackfish could have helped her out a lot. Sure, it would be a risky way of escaping, but if the only option was handing her out to the Lannisters, it was a risk they had to take.

[Swordsaint]

My post from the WoW forum:

I also want to add that hip bones don't change. They're bones. Bones. Not fat. Jaime also sees the family leaving (when he sees "Jeyne" covering her face with the hood), but Elenya still isn't mentioned.

I agree, that was also my first impression when I read Jamie tell it. I do not think that Rob's heir will be of any significance in this story for obvious reasons, but Jeyne will be.

[valyrian_steel]

I dont buy this at all. First, I dont think Sybell Spicer has the stones to pull it off.

The Westerling were a poor house with a glorious past. I believe there was a Jeyne Westerling married into the Targaryan house at one point. Despite any grudge Sybell Spicer had with the Lannisters, and I do believe there was one, I see no way she can play the Lannister's false in this. By the time Spicer meets with Jaime it's clear the Lannister's have one the war. What benefit is there for Spicer to secretly raise the heir to the North and Winterfell? When the heir is revealed, what will become of Westerlings and their new seat at Castimere? The plan doesnt work without Spicer and it's plain she made the best deal she can get with Tywin.

but...

there is one way I can see this working. What if Jeyne escaped without her mother realizing. Sybell could then see her deal with Lannister at risk and might then have been forced to improvise. Sybell would then have to hope her wayward daughter could be hunted down before she gave birth.

Still, I dont give the theory much weight.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think that Sybill really gave Jeyne moon tea, but Jeyne either stopped taking it for some reason or became pregnant in spite of it. When she was pregnant, it was clear she couldn't be handed out to the Lannisters, so Blackfish kept Riverrun even if it was hopeless. When Edmure was returned, they orchestrated the escape. Either Sybill was in on it, if she wanted to save her grandchild, or then she was not, and found out only after Jeyne had gone. It was in her best interests to cover up Jeyne's escape however (otherwise no prizes for her), so she played along. I think Jeyne could have managed the escape. She might know how to swim (Crag was in the coast after all), and pregnancy doesn't affect swimming abilities that much. And she needn't have been a superb swimmer, since Blackfish could have helped her out a lot. Sure, it would be a risky way of escaping, but if the only option was handing her out to the Lannisters, it was a risk they had to take.

From what I can see, moon tea does not prevent conception as much as eliminate pregnancy. It likely causes the forced onset of menstruration - taken early enough it would be like a "morning after pill"; taken later in pregnancy, more like in induced miscarriage (example: Lysa Tully).

So as it relates to Jeyne Westerling, if she really was given it by her mother, then it is the end of Robb's unborn child.

If her mother did so. Her mother sounds like she is complicit with the RW and remember the Lannisters are their liege lords, so she may never have approved of the match with Robb against the Lannisters' wishes.

Jaime's no fool though - when he says Jeyne's dangerous, it is for two reasons: 1) she could get pregnant again and pass the child off as Robb's, hence the 2 year waiting period so none can doubt any child of hers is not Robb's, 2) If the girl is still loyal to Robb's memory, and bears a grudge for Robb's murder, she is a rallying point for future rebellion (indeed, being high-born, she can raise rebellion if she chooses). If she defies her mother and escapes, the war can drag on for years more even if the Lannisters still win. The signs of her defiance, the tearing of clothes etc. show that even if the Westerlings have bent the knee, she may yet defy the crown and her family.

My interpretation of Jaime's order to Ser Forley Prester is that if he cannot keep her captive, kill her. The line the knight makes about her being that Lord's little girl, and Jaime cutting him off seems to me that the knight is aghast that they would kill the daughter of one of their own bannermen, but Jaime making sure the knight understands the dangers of her escape. (I do not interpret it as a sign Jaime either knows it's not really Jeyne or that it is Jeyne and she is still pregnant.)

This is not to say I dismiss the idea of Robb's heir still growing in Jeyne's womb somewhere.

The Westerlings could have played the Lannisters false, and if not all of them, then just Jeyne. Jeyne may have escaped and her sister replaced her as hostage. (Even if the other Westerlings like Sybell were not siding with Robb / The Blackfish , they might still deceive Jaime out of fear.)

I do think it's unlikely though. The most Occam's Razor sort of explanation here is that Jeyne really is captured, really isn't pregnant, and her family really are on the Lannister side - but Jeyne is still full of defiance and vengeful thoughts after they killed her husband, the Young Wolf whom she loved.

[jarl the climber]

For the most part I am doubtful about the Jeyne Westerling switcheroo theory. People liked Robb for the most part and hope that he managed to produce an heir but its built more on hope than reality. IMO, if it did happen, and I am a skeptic, Jeyne was long gone by the time the Lannisters took Riverrun. Robb wanted to bring Jeyne with him to the wedding at the Twins but relented to his Mother who insisted that Walder Frey would insult her if he did and rub at a wound better left alone. The last time we see Jeyne in ASOS she comes out to Robb who has all ready left Riverrun and begs him to let her accompany him. He refuses and sends her back under guard.

The thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about teenagers, not ordinary teenagers but the King and Queen. My experience with teenagers if you forbid them to do something they find a way to do it anyways and thats when you have legal authority over them. Possibly Jeyne came back with the guards in disguise, kind of like Eowyn in the LOTR. Her and Robb are like 16 and they are shagging like 2 dogs in heat and they did not want to be parted but they went through this charade to placate Catelyn. In this scenario Robb sent her with Glover and Lady Mormont to treat with the Crannogmen and to be kept safely til he could reunite with her after retaking Moat Cailin. In this case, the Blackfish would have had months to find a Jeyne look alike if Jeyne had not found one all ready. I don't think the girl we saw in AFFC is Jeynes sister. All though Jaime does not specifically mention seeing her its implied that she is present and accounted for. If she was actually pregnant with Robbs kid, trying to smuggle her out at the last second with 3 different armies encircling the castle seems very risky and puts Robbs child at risk. But like I'm saying its a longshot based on wishful thinking.

[The Spoony Bard]

I have to admit that when I first read the theory, I was a bit sceptical, but having read all the evidence that Apple has laid out, I'm sold.

The key to me is the behavior of the Blackfish. The difference in physcial descriptions by Jaime and Catelyn could simply be unreliable narrators. Blackfish, however, was so adamant about defending his queen, yet gives her up after a conversation with Edmure.

The other question that I have is, where is Eleyna during the march westward? The fact that Jaime only sees one daughter at a time is telling.

[richard_ba]

Elenya was in Riverrun when Robb's van marched to the Twins for Edmure's marriage, it is pretty obvious she was switched

[The Spoony Bard]

Elenya was in Riverrun when Robb's van marched to the Twins for Edmure's marriage, it is pretty obvious she was switched

I know she was left in Riverrun for the wedding. I was referring to when, after Jaime breaks the siege, the Westerlings and Edmure Tully are escorted west. From what I remember, Jaime never sees both Westerling daughters, so that to me is evidence that Eleyna is standing in for Jeyne, who escaped with the Blackfish.

[richard_ba]

I was not especially replying to you, but to the thread in general, I know that I pointed it out in other Jeyne Westerling threads, that after the siege ends we only see one Westerling child being escorted out, and this very child is hiding her face

[Greywater Reed]

Is everyone so sure that Raynald Westerling is dead?

He is described as being shot twice after cutting Grey Wind loose at the Red Wedding, and then throwing himself in the river. Jaime asks, "Did you find his corpse afterward?" and Edwyn Frey replies, "We found a thousand corpses afterward. Once they've spent a few days in the river they all look much the same."

So maybe - but maybe not. IF the switch took place and Jeyne escaped from Riverrun, she and the Blackfish could find Reynald, perhaps with the BwB and the late Catelyn?

I'm rather unconvinced about this. There's a chance he was found and nursed back to health (Sort of like Cat, except switch nursed for "brought back to life) but without help, he's toast. Shot twice and then jumped into a muddy river, full of all kinds of horrid bacteria? Those wounds would fester pretty quickly without treatment.

It's a bit of a reach, but there's a chance he was found by BWB and restored there, I don't think Cat/Stoneheart would have any reason to believe he was any less than faithful, given his loyalty to Robb.

[Pod The Impaler]

In this scenario Robb sent her with Glover and Lady Mormont to treat with the Crannogmen and to be kept safely til he could reunite with her after retaking Moat Cailin. In this case, the Blackfish would have had months to find a Jeyne look alike if Jeyne had not found one all ready.

This is a good point.

Unlikely as this is, if Robb sent her to the Crannogmen, i.e. Howland Reed, it could be that they detected the danger there and switched her before the RW even happened, or certainly before Riverrun was surrounded. Detect - how ? Well, if Jojen Reed is a greenseer, there's a good chance either his father or mother are as well, or at least have a higher degree of precognition that most people. So maybe Jeyne is alive and well, raising a baby wolf in the swamp. Or maybe the baby is there, being fostered more or less, and perhaps guarded by Reynald, but Jeyne went back to Riverrun (sometime between the RW and the fall of Riverrun) to complete the ruse that the young wolf's child was never born.

It's definitely a long-shot, but if the Reeds are involved then green-seeing produces all sorts of possibilities.

[the trees have eyes]

Elenya was in Riverrun when Robb's van marched to the Twins for Edmure's marriage, it is pretty obvious she was switched

But that is just a theory with nothing but speculation behind it. Elenya and Rollam, Sybill and Gawen Westerling's younger children, appear only once in the series - the Catelyn POV when Robb returns to Riverrun with all Jeyne's family.

The fact that we never see Elenya again isn't conclusivce evidence of a switch, it's not evidence of anything. It's jsut as likely that, like Rollam, she isn't mentioned in Jaime's chapters because she has no relevance to the plot and no further part to play.

It's only if your set on the switch that the mysterious failure of both girls to appear at the same time becomes important as it is used to support the theory.

[richard_ba]

But that is just a theory with nothing but speculation behind it. Elenya and Rollam, Sybill and Gawen Westerling's younger children, appear only once in the series - the Catelyn POV when Robb returns to Riverrun with all Jeyne's family.

The fact that we never see Elenya again isn't conclusivce evidence of a switch, it's not evidence of anything. It's jsut as likely that, like Rollam, she isn't mentioned in Jaime's chapters because she has no relevance to the plot and no further part to play.

It's only if your set on the switch that the mysterious failure of both girls to appear at the same time becomes important as it is used to support the theory.

Jaime knows there are two children, and Jaime like any other pov character is very detailed about minor characters, how comes in this chapter he ignores another possible sibling presence, if I'm to arrest or court or guide I'll take as many notes as possible, your argument is invalid

/edit and Rollam is not mentioned by Jaime, but he is mentioned by Sybell, who lost a son and if she knew beforehand that a massacre was taking place she would have never let him go, once again u failed sire

[jarl the climber]

This is a good point.

Unlikely as this is, if Robb sent her to the Crannogmen, i.e. Howland Reed, it could be that they detected the danger there and switched her before the RW even happened, or certainly before Riverrun was surrounded. Detect - how ? Well, if Jojen Reed is a greenseer, there's a good chance either his father or mother are as well, or at least have a higher degree of precognition that most people. So maybe Jeyne is alive and well, raising a baby wolf in the swamp. Or maybe the baby is there, being fostered more or less, and perhaps guarded by Reynald, but Jeyne went back to Riverrun (sometime between the RW and the fall of Riverrun) to complete the ruse that the young wolf's child was never born.

It's definitely a long-shot, but if the Reeds are involved then green-seeing produces all sorts of possibilities.

I'm basing my theory on them being rebelious, self indulgent and horny teenagers who didn't want to listen to Robbs Mother advice, imagine that. Robb was planning on returning to the North, he would have to retake the Moat Cailin, drive the Ironborn out of the other strongholds they had taken and rebuild Winterfell as well as help defend the Wall which was under assault by the Wildlings. Who knows what other weird rumors Robb was hearing about this. He got a letter just like Stannis and Joffrey, Cat did not know about this and does not mention it in her PoV but Robb knew abouit the troubles at the Wall. If Robb returned North he would not be heading South again anytime soon. So he is just going to leave his Queen and possibly his heir there to be taken as hostages? By the time Robb reached the Twins, Maidenpool had all ready fallen and Gregor Clagane was on Boltons heels and had all ready retaken Harrenhal. The Throne had around 70,000 or 80,000 men at Kings landing and the Lannisters had forces at Golden Tooth. Realisticaly, how long can the Blackfish hold the Riverlands. Marrying Edmure to Rosilin might placate the Freys enough to allow him to cross and head North but I don't think Robb really counted on them fighting to the last man for him. Quietly taking Jeyne out of Riverrun while allowing everyone to think she is still there is more in line with the way Robb thought and acted.

[jarl the climber]

Jaime knows there are two children, and Jaime like any other pov character is very detailed about minor characters, how comes in this chapter he ignores another possible sibling presence, if I'm to arrest or court or guide I'll take as many notes as possible, your argument is invalid

/edit and Rollam is not mentioned by Jaime, but he is mentioned by Sybell, who lost a son and if she knew beforehand that a massacre was taking place she would have never let him go, once again u failed sire

Jaime did report that the other 2 children were present, they are not referred to specifically but he does mention this but there is no real reason for him to really pay much attention to the other 2 kids.This whole thing about Elenya stepping in for Jeyne and not being present is shit.

[the trees have eyes]

Jaime knows there are two children, and Jaime like any other pov character is very detailed about minor characters, how comes in this chapter he ignores another possible sibling presence, if I'm to arrest or court or guide I'll take as many notes as possible, your argument is invalid

/edit and Rollam is not mentioned by Jaime, but he is mentioned by Sybell, who lost a son and if she knew beforehand that a massacre was taking place she would have never let him go, once again u failed sire

What? "Once again you failed sire?" Forgive me but that's a dumb attitude to take. This is a discsussion thread not a contest.

I can't even read your first point clearly the way you have expressed it but if Jaime has indeed counted and is aware that one Westerling girl is "missing" I think that would have set off his alarm bells, or one of his many bannermen as well. They aren't all a bunch of dozy twits who afterwards will go, "oh yeah, we knew a girl was missing and we knew the potential implications of a sibing switch but we didn't give it a second thought cos we were too frickin lazyass and dumb".

Jaime has Forley Prestor place take hundreds of men and place his best bowmen around Edmure and Jeyne. I think they are well aware of where Rollam and Elenya are as well, they just don't warrant a mention. You can agree or disagree, I don't much care but its a valid point either way.

And I can't make head or tail of your second point. Rollam was Robb's squire after Olyvar Frey but Rollam remained at Riverrun so as not to antagonise the Freys when Robb went north to the Twins . Raynald Westerling went with Robb and as far we know died after freeing Grey Wind.

No mention of Rollam or Elenya in Jaime's POVs in AFFC as far as I'm concerned because they don't matter. You're free to think differently, plenty of people do.

[richard_ba]

What? "Once again you failed sire?" Forgive me but that's a dumb attitude to take. This is a discsussion thread not a contest.

I can't even read your first point clearly the way you have expressed it but if Jaime has indeed counted and is aware that one Westerling girl is "missing" I think that would have set off his alarm bells, or one of his many bannermen as well. They aren't all a bunch of dozy twits who afterwards will go, "oh yeah, we knew a girl was missing and we knew the potential implications of a sibing switch but we didn't give it a second thought cos we were too frickin lazyass and dumb".

Jaime has Forley Prestor place take hundreds of men and place his best bowmen around Edmure and Jeyne. I think they are well aware of where Rollam and Elenya are as well, they just don't warrant a mention. You can agree or disagree, I don't much care but its a valid point either way.

And I can't make head or tail of your second point. Rollam was Robb's squire after Olyvar Frey but Rollam remained at Riverrun so as not to antagonise the Freys when Robb went north to the Twins . Raynald Westerling went with Robb and as far we know died after freeing Grey Wind.

No mention of Rollam or Elenya in Jaime's POVs in AFFC as far as I'm concerned because they don't matter. You're free to think differently, plenty of people do.

I was just kidding, lol, there are implications if a sibling is missing, Jaime paid attention to the girl which description doesn't match Catelyn, Jaime directly doesn't mention any other Westerling children, however if I'm not wrong Sybell mentions that there were promises and betrothals made, which Jaime said that the arrangements are fulfilled once they arrive in Casterly Rock and that Joy Hill, Gerion's bastard daughter, is the one being betrothed, rebuffing Sybell, their van departs with a girl and a boy, and yet no mention of a third girl.

I'm pretty sure Raynald died as well, but people in this forum root for the possibility of his survival, which I think is most unlikely to be true, he was shot by crossbow and jumped at a polluted river, if he somehow survived his wounds would fester, or even if he jumped in the river, the twins distance in height from the river level would prove it impossible to survival (assuming the twins is midst a double hill crossing).

Like I said before, Jaime is very observant, he noticed every single detail, from a whore wearing a crown, to the gallows where Edmure was standing. Details such as these are not left out, Martin said, that he makes mistakes, but there are things which are left intentionally, because he can decides either or not he will make something based on that. There is a possibility, there is, and I'm pretty sure that right now both possibilities are at equal level, because its outcome is going to be solved (or not) on the next book.

[Pope Killdragon]

I now believe this theory is correct. Too bad no timeskip? Would've made ALOT more sense.