The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[the trees have eyes]

"Jeyne's" grief around Jaime after the siege is totally out-of-character for the Jeyne we read about when Cat was around. She was shy and stoic and almost timid. The only time she wasn't was when she chased after Robb as he was leaving for the Twins, but she wasn't being overly dramatic about it. Even before I started realizing the discrepancies, the 'grief' seemed like over-acting. The exaggeration of the grief display is what made, I think, a lot of readers start questioning whether or not it was the real Jeyne. Elenya Westerling grew up knowing the song "The Rains of Castamere." Likely her mother roughed her up a little and reminded her what could happen to all of them should they not succeed in fooling Jaime. I'm 30 and I'd be scared as fuck about the possibility that my house could be exterminated. Can't imagine how a 13-year-old would feel about it. Plus there's the fact that there was never any mention of a crown for Jeyne.

I don't see how you can compare the happy stars in her eyes in-love, learning to be a good wife and a dutiful queen Jeyne Catelyn meets in ASOS with the grieving, betrayed and desolate Jeyne Jaime sees in AFFC and call her grief out of character! A happy person and a broken-hearted one are going to behave differently and there is nothing out of character in this display of grief.

I don't know where the notion of over-acting or exaggeration comes from - grief can be one of the most powerful and debilitating emotions a person has to cope with - and I don't see it as unnatural at all; in fact it is one of the things that makes me dismiss the idea of impersonation. Oh well, we all think differently I suppose...

I don't recall if there is mention of a crown for Jeyne or not before AFFC - I confess it seemed such a trivial detail. But do you really find it odd that Robb (who had a crown made when he became king) would have one made for his queen? Or that she would cherish it as a gift from him and a memento of him and defy her mother when she tried to take it from her? It all seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[jon rr stark]

If Jeyne is with the blackfish this should give us a clue to his intentions. I'm guessing he will go somewhere safe or at least bring jeyne somewhere safe. The only safe place in the North is Greywater watch with Howland Reed. This would give Howland the reason to reveal himself later at winterfell after it is back in Stark hands when the Boltons get a pasteing from Stannis.

[bloodymime]

By the time she is supposed to lie and cover a lie, the Northerners are dead. Not to mention we shouldn't be revisionist: she did plot with Tywin and did not help Robb at all. Nobody purposefully sinks the cause one is actually interested in reaping benefits from.

What does she do to sink the cause? She has no idea of the Red Wedding.

"Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that.”

[the trees have eyes]

Jeyne's insistence on wearing her Queen of the North crown, just as her enemies are literally coming to sieze her, seems a bit too much for the real Jeyne. It is almost as though she is trying to say "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME! I'M JEYNE WESTERLING! SEE? I'M WEARING THE STARK CROWN!" But if it is misdirection - an act for the Lannister's benefit -- then it makes perfect sense.

Why does it seem "a bit too much" for the real Jeyne? While the Blackfish holds Riverrun he flies the direwolf of Stark and, as he tells Jaime, will not yield Jeyne's person or the castle. She is still Queen, albeit a widow and I presume she wears her crown because she is entiteld to and it is expected of her not as an act of misdirection for the Lannisters. Like flying the flag, wearing the crown is an obvious symbol of the Stark regime and keeps morale up.

Equally, once the Blackfish has escaped and Riverrun has yielded Sybil Spicer wastes no time in tearing the crown off her daughter's head, to avoid affronting Jaime (who is brother to the real Queen), to make sure she understands her diminished station and ensure she gets a hard dose of reality that she is now her mother's obediant daughter not the Queen in the North.

[Errant Bard]

What does she do to sink the cause? She has no idea of the Red Wedding.

She knew something was afoot, she knew the rewards. Was Robb alerted of, like, anything? No.

But you're forgetting to comment on the point that the Starks by the time after the Red Wedding are a lost cause, visibly so. No castle, no army, no leader. Any "double crossing" here is nonsensical as it trade actual higher places for them in society for... lives of bandits. (see: the BwB, for reference on resistance fighters with a noble at the head.)

What double crossing? It's the Lannisters or political and societal suicide, by the time Riverrun is taken.

[Fearsome Fred]

Why does it seem "a bit too much" for the real Jeyne?

I cannot prove that the fakery is too obviously fake to believe. So yes, it is plausible that the real Jeyne might behave that way.

It seems even more plausible that a fake Jeyne would behave that way. A fake Jeyne would call attention to the fact that she was Jeyne, by, for instance, wearing her crown at what is, logically, an inappropriate moment for doing so.

Create a little drama. Your enemies will draw their own conclusions; and you will never even have to lie to them and arouse their suspicions. Seems to me like a good strategy.

[the trees have eyes]

I'll just add when it comes to the hips that the difference unless an outright mistake by the author is pretty telling. I'm going to expect the lady that's looking at these girls as nothing more than broodmares able to pop out wolf pups one after the other to be more critical of Jeyne's hips than the Kingslayer that frankly isn't going to give a damn. If Kingslayer is thinking her hips are too narrow Cat's going to think she has the hips of a five year old boy yet she does in fact feel her hips are just fine.

Enough with the hips! GRRM has admitted that he writes from memory, believing he knows his characters and storylines well enough to do so, but that the scrutiny the texts come under from his avid readers have uncovered several inconsistencies. I wish I could remember where I read this (as I am sure to be challenged :box:) but I remember him giving a person's eye colour and the sex of a horse as examples. To me the hips is not some telling clue to a hidden plot but either a simple slip of no real consequence or a deliberately and slightly different description of the same person from two different character's viewpoints.

[the trees have eyes]

I cannot prove that the fakery is too obviously fake to believe. So yes, it is plausible that the real Jeyne might behave that way. It seems even more plausible that a fake Jeyne would behave that way. A fake Jeyne would call attention to the fact that she was Jeyne, by, for instance, wearing her crown at what is, logically, an inappropriate moment for doing so. Create a little drama. Your enemies will draw their own conclusions; and you will never even have to lie to them and arouse their suspicions. Seems to me like a good strategy.

Read that again and tell me it doesn't sound convoluted! She wears the crown because she is Queen. Now that doesn't sound convoluted.

I know people like to speculate but when there is nothing to speculate on and much more plausible answers it seems a bit far-fetched.

Anyway, I have said my piece and we are all entitled to our opinions.

[Fearsome Fred]

Enough with the hips! GRRM has admitted that he writes from memory [...]

He has admitted he makes mistakes. He has said he does not like it when he makes mistakes, because he also leaves deliberate clues, and he does not like muddying the water with mistakes.

Maybe the hip thing is a mistake, which has muddied the waters. But that does not mean that readers who pay attention to detail are behaving contrary to the philosophy of GRRM's storytelling.

[bloodymime]

She knew something was afoot, she knew the rewards. Was Robb alerted of, like, anything? No. But you're forgetting to comment on the point that the Starks by the time after the Red Wedding are a lost cause, visibly so. No castle, no army, no leader. Any "double crossing" here is nonsensical as it trade actual higher places for them in society for... lives of bandits. (see: the BwB, for reference on resistance fighters with a noble at the head.) What double crossing? It's the Lannisters or political and societal suicide, by the time Riverrun is taken.

I meant to go back and edit in more of an answer but got busy. I'm not sure what you mean by afoot, at that specific time? I don't think she would have her son anywhere near Robb if she knew anything was afoot.

The mother may very well have been in Tywin's pocket from the beginning, she seems rather unpleasant and I've never had a problem with the odds of what would happen if she pushed those two kids together at a time like that. A tragic and handsome boy king suffering a wound taken in battle with a sore heart over the loss of his brothers, a beautiful and gentle young lady yearning to ease his troubled soul. All this in the midst of a war. Why anybody brings up love potions is beyond me, you'd have had to use choke collars to keep the two apart.

Maybe though, just maybe the girl is not her mother's daughter after all. Her love for Robb certainly seems genuine yes? If she has no idea of any plans and the Red Wedding is the worst day of her life then perhaps she has absolutely refuses to go back to the open arms of the Lannisters. Why does her mother have to be in on her escaping instead of just making the best of a bad situation to make sure she doesn't lose out on her reward.

Enough with the hips! GRRM has admitted that he writes from memory, believing he knows his characters and storylines well enough to do so, but that the scrutiny the texts come under from his avid readers have uncovered several inconsistencies. I wish I could remember where I read this (as I am sure to be challenged :box:) but I remember him giving a person's eye colour and the sex of a horse as examples. To me the hips is not some telling clue to a hidden plot but either a simple slip of no real consequence or a deliberately and slightly different description of the same person from two different character's viewpoints.

Then don't comment on the hips. I explained my position there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sorry to go on about the hips, but ...

1. People keep saying that GRRM said it's just an error, but no one has yet provided the link or SSM.

2. If it is a mistake that is obviously causing "confusion," why not use later editions to fix it?

[Fearsome Fred]

Sorry to go on about the hips, but ...

1. People keep saying that GRRM said it's just an error, but no one has yet provided the link or SSM.

No-one has said that. People in this tread have said that GRRM admits he makes errors. Which is true. They have concluded therefore that this hips discrepancy COULD be an error. Which is possible, but GRRM has not said so.

GRRM has said nothing specific about the hips being an error, and hence the hips could be a clue, as I think they are.

[Lord Damian]

With all due respect to Ran, The words spoken to Jaime by the Blackfish regarding his kings's last orders to protect his Queen. The Bladkfish is missing. Nothing has changed since Jaime and his conversation. Robb was known to be dead for a while but the Blackfish is still carrying out his orders. Where ever the Blackfish is, Jeyne Westerling is near by, very near by.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I'm starting to believe Jeyne was switched. But I'm still trying to convince myself that she is not pregnant. On the one hand, I kind of like the idea that Robb might have a son or daughter. But on the other hand, I do NOT like what that does to the line of succession. What was the point of the will, where Robb (probably) named Jon his heir, if Robb ends up having a kid to succeed him anyway? Was GRRM just trolling us Jon fans?

I want Jon to be King in the North, not a regent for Robb's little babe, which is probably the best he could do if there is a baby. A baby just makes everything too muddled for my tastes, I don't like it.

Though I suppose Jon could adopt the kid and make him/her his heir. I could live with that I guess :dunno:

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't see how you can compare the happy stars in her eyes in-love, learning to be a good wife and a dutiful queen Jeyne Catelyn meets in ASOS with the grieving, betrayed and desolate Jeyne Jaime sees in AFFC and call her grief out of character! A happy person and a broken-hearted one are going to behave differently and there is nothing out of character in this display of grief. I don't know where the notion of over-acting or exaggeration comes from - grief can be one of the most powerful and debilitating emotions a person has to cope with - and I don't see it as unnatural at all; in fact it is one of the things that makes me dismiss the idea of impersonation. Oh well, we all think differently I suppose... I don't recall if there is mention of a crown for Jeyne or not before AFFC - I confess it seemed such a trivial detail. But do you really find it odd that Robb (who had a crown made when he became king) would have one made for his queen? Or that she would cherish it as a gift from him and a memento of him and defy her mother when she tried to take it from her? It all seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Cat observes Jeyne on more than one occasion. One doesn't have to have a conversation with a person to observe that they are shy and timid. I agree that grief will do strange things to people, I disagree that a Jeyne who's been consistently observed as shy, timid and stoic would be so crazy with grief three months after the fact, especially when she's supposedly still thinking of herself as queen. And if Robb had ever had a crown made for her, why was it never mentioned? Every other crown has been mentioned and described in detail. Why suddenly not ever mention or describe Jeyne's? Not only that, but there are instances within the text where crowns are taken from defeated foes because the crown has a lot of symbolic meaning. I admit that Jaime was a softer person when he returned to Riverrun, but it seems he would have at least ask that the crown be taken out of Stark/Westerling possession. I believe all of the evidence supports Elenya posing as Jeyne, though I'm not so sure she's preggers. Just seems too....convenient.

As for the hips...Martin has made continuity errors. There have been eye-color errors. Horse sex errors. But in each case he has openly admitted that it was a genuine error. Why not admit it in this case?

___

Just a side question for Ran. I have read elsewhere that you know more about the books than anyone since you have a direct line with GRRM and you do pre-reading for him. Are you able to answer whether or not you know for certain if the Jeyne Jaime sees is the real Jeyne?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No-one has said that. People in this tread have said that GRRM admits he makes errors. Which is true. They have concluded therefore that this hips discrepancy COULD be an error. Which is possible, but GRRM has not said so. GRRM has said nothing specific about the hips being an error, and hence the hips could be a clue, as I think they are.

No, some people have said — maybe not in this thread, but elsewhere — that GRRM specifically owned up to the hips thing being an error. But no one has provided evidence for this, which was the point I was making.

[danm_999]

We'd have less story then. Video game players call that padding - filling your time with useless content intended just to extend the playtime. In fact, the entirety of the series is a big case of this, since it could all have been solved in the first book if not for the stick inside Ned Stark's rectal cavity.

Right but all the events that led up to Ned's death were of characters acting logically (in that their actions can be explained by logic, not that their actions necessarily were logical) based on the information they had. Nobody did something that worked against them to pad out the pages. It's a book, it can be as long as GRRM wants it to, and have whatever content GRRM wants it to, so it's not like he can't write something new that actually does much internal sense.

So I don't see why he'd have Tywin playing the unnecessary game of cat and mouse with Robb on the off chance to get him to sleep with Jeyne, then hope he marries Jeyne, then hope Robb goes to the Twins and the Red Wedding goes off without a hitch when he could just have Jeyne kill Robb.

For your theory to work, you're basically asking us to believe characters began acting in a way that did not make sense because GRRM needed to run out the clock. But it's not like he has a finite amount of ideas in his head, he can just write something else that does work logically.

That's why the theory is bad.

[danm_999]

Enough with the hips! GRRM has admitted that he writes from memory, believing he knows his characters and storylines well enough to do so, but that the scrutiny the texts come under from his avid readers have uncovered several inconsistencies. I wish I could remember where I read this (as I am sure to be challenged :box:) but I remember him giving a person's eye colour and the sex of a horse as examples. To me the hips is not some telling clue to a hidden plot but either a simple slip of no real consequence or a deliberately and slightly different description of the same person from two different character's viewpoints.

We don't know one way or the other though, which is why it continues to be a viable theory.

[richard_ba]

Lemme say something that may or may not clarify it all, Sybell Spicer is the Maegi Sybell's (aka Maggy The Frog) granddaughter

Why she would side with someone who was foretold about its own tragedy and downfall

[Jayce]

I like this theory and this from Apple is spot on, making me think that this is what will happen. Especially as there is no mention of Elenya, which make all the difference.

My post from the WoW forum:

I also want to add that hip bones don't change. They're bones. Bones. Not fat. Jaime also sees the family leaving (when he sees "Jeyne" covering her face with the hood), but Elenya still isn't mentioned.

However I changed my mind after reading the below;

Eleyna isn't "missing". She's just not discussed....

Well, not exactly not discussed. Jaime says outright that he's aware that Lady Spicer is in Riverrun with three children:

And, what's this? Lady Westerling brings her up in conversation with Jaime as well:

So... I don't get it. Jaime knows both girls are there. How is he supposed to miss the fact that Eleyna is missing? "Oh, they have some other girl pretending to be Eleyna, too," seems to me the obvious answer... and don't you realize how far-fetched it all seems?

So the idea that Jaime has somehow lost track of this fact and now believes it's just Jeyne and Rollam is very hard to be credulous about. The idea that there's a double-fake going on, Eleyna pretending to be Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of pretending to be Eleyna, is very difficult to be credlous about. This is one of those ideas that sounds nice on paper, but the logistics make no sense unless the author is very heavily putting his thumb on the scale to get an unrealistic outcome.

The hip thing? A mistake by GRRM or indicating that Catelyn and Jaime have different standards when it comes to what narrow and wide hips are.

Which I think totally kills this theory, the fact that Jamie knows that there are 2 girls makes this theory (which I thought was solid based on there being no account of Elenya) not very solid at all. If Elenya was missing Jamie would of noted it and things would of happened differently.

Also I don't think some other random girl was used to impersonate Elenya so she could impersonate Jeyne, that just seems too much.

Shame as I liked this one :frown5: