The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Faint]

@ Faint

But the "Younger Queen" is specifially more beautiful than Cersei, and Cersei is signifcantly stunning to everyone,

Whereas Jeyne was not noted to be particulalary imaculate, I think Catelyn only says "pretty".

I suppose it could be her though, as the "Beauty" thing may not necessarily mean outer beauty.

I have several thoughts on this issue. The first, is that Cersei Lannister is not as a beautiful as she used to be. If we are going by how she looked at the peak of her beauty, only Daenerys could ever hope to possibly qualify (and I'll get to, in a moment, why I don't think the prophecy refers to Daenerys). My second point is that "beauty" might not, in this particular case, refer to a person's appearance, as you also suggested.

Now, to be honest, I used to be well convinced that the prophecy referred to Daenerys. But, recently, I've come around to thinking this unlikely. For one, nothing in the prophecies at the House of the Undying suggest Daenerys will have a confrontation with Cersei or any other Lannister. We have plenty of evidence that she'll end up confronting Stannis, and Aegon as well, even that scary smoke monster which might have to do with the Others (who she actually dreams about confronting), but the Lannisters? Nothing.

There is also a time factor to all this. Daenerys can't simply conquer everyone and everything in three books worth of material, much less two. My own view on this is that all the usurper's dogs and all those people who betrayed her family will all be dead by the time Daenerys arrives, robbing her of any vengeance.

Now, back to Jeyne, I think a future role for her has been well built up by Jaime's thoughts and comments in AFfC. And we're always hearing about Casterly Rock being a setting for the story in the future. Then you have the irony of Maggy the Frog's granddaughter being the one to fulfill Cersei's prophecy.

Anyhow, that's my line of thought on this issue.

[Lady Hodor]

@ Faint

I love the irony of it being Maggy's granddaughter :) That would just be brilliant.

As for the Daenerys thing, that does sound feasible. Martin said the ending would be "Bittersweet" and that fits well.

And it does sound like a GRRM thing to do for the beauty thing not to refer to the outer self. He likes to confuse us like that :P

[bloodymime]

I've been reading through the SSM section lately and while I haven't come across that claim about Mr. Martin saying the hips are a mistake I did find this passage.

"There was a long discussion about mistakes and inconsistencies. He used the eyes changing color example, and also mentioned receiving an email about horses changing sex. George gets frustrated when there's mistakes in the books--not just because mistakes can be embarrassing, though. He said there are inconsistencies in the books that are NOT mistakes. He believes in the "unreliable narrator" -- you can't always trust what people say because they might be remembering it wrong, or you get two different stories depending on who's doing the telling. He feels that mistakes such as eye color changes can distract from the planned inconsistencies, making them less effective."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/05/

[jlk7e]

There is also a time factor to all this. Daenerys can't simply conquer everyone and everything in three books worth of material, much less two. My own view on this is that all the usurper's dogs and all those people who betrayed her family will all be dead by the time Daenerys arrives, robbing her of any vengeance.

Most of them are already dead - Robert, Tywin, Ned, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, the Mountain, Amory Lorch, even Pycelle and Kevan Lannister. Jaime and Stannis are really the only ones left. I guess Varys and Littlefinger might also be considered to be involved.

[morbiczer]

Some comments:

1. GRRM certainly wrote the Riverrun surrender sequence in a way that we should be left wondering whether Jeyne escaped together with the Blackfish or not. Even if the hip thing is just an honest mistake (I don't think it is) it is significant that the second Westerling girl is mentioned (the casual reader is reminded that there was a younger girl), but we only ever see one Westerling girl. This in itself is no proof for the switch, however, as we are never told specicially either that there is only one girl around. This could be only a red herring.

2. The biggest argument against a switch is IMO the cooperation of Lady Westerling. She was in league with the Lannisters for a long time, and she and her brother were richly rewarded. Why would she betray the Lannisters right at the time when the Stark cause is lost? If Jeyne was pregnant despite the moon tea, they could have performed an abortion. I don't think Lady Westerling would have any problems with that, and nobody would have asked is Jeyne agrees or not.

If Jeyne was pregnant and disappeared without telling her mother, Sybille would have had two options:

a) She stays silent and plays along. The truth sooner or later comes to light whatever she does. Even if she manages to fool Jaime, half the lords of the Westerlands are camped outside Riverrun. Anyone of them could have recognised Elanye or noticed that one girl is missing. I *think* Lord Westerling is also at Riverrun. He could have betrayed the treason of his wife to Jaime. Or once they get back to the Crag, everybody would have realised that one girl is missing, and somebody would have told the Lannisters. So the truth is bound to come out, probably sooner than later. At that point Sybell is most likely dead, as she committed a serious crime against her liege lords. Even if Sybell for some reason helps to cover up the switch, why would she remind Jaime that there is a second daughter around? That would have been a very bad tactic. (She couldn't have known that Jaime was already aware that there is a second girl.)

B) She immediately tells Jaime what happened. Jaime would be pissed off, but there is really nothing that she could have done different. And she would have done him a service, as the Lannisters could have started immediately to chase the Blackfish and Jeyne.

3. Prior to ADWD I was a firm believer that there was no switch. I didn't see how such a plan could have worked even for a short time given the great risk of failure. I considered a switch a piece of bad writing not up to GRRM's standards. After ADWD I have changed my mind. Now I believe that a switch is at least a possibilty. Sadly I have to say that GRRM's quality of writing has fallen over the years, and ADWD is full with stories that don't make much sense (Wex following Osha, Rickon and Shaggydog all the way from Winterfell to Skaagos, the Court simply accepting all the strange things about FrankenGregor, or the Freys simply not noticing that the head and the hands are not Davos's). A switch that Sybell accepts and that mysteriously nobody notices is in line with these events, while I think it wouldn't have fit into AGOT or ACOK which are better books overall.

[morbiczer]

All the time the king and queen were talking,Grey Wind prowled around them, stopping only to shake the water from his coat and bare his teeth at the rain.

This doesn't say much, but the behavior is strange because before Grey Wind was acting strange/hostile against Westerlings.

Grey Wind was never hostile to the Westerlings in general, but only to those who we know betrayed Robb, specifically Ser Rolph Spicer.

[jlk7e]

I *think* Lord Westerling is also at Riverrun.

Yup, it's mentioned that he nods to Jaime as they're departing Riverrun.

3. Prior to ADWD I was a firm believer that there was no switch. I didn't see how such a plan could have worked even for a short time given the great risk of failure. I considered a switch a piece of bad writing not up to GRRM's standards. After ADWD I have changed my mind. Now I believe that a switch is at least a possibilty. Sadly I have to say that GRRM's quality of writing has fallen over the years, and ADWD is full with stories that don't make much sense (Wex following Osha, Rickon and Shaggydog all the way from Winterfell to Skaagos, the Court simply accepting all the strange things about FrankenGregor, or the Freys simply not noticing that the head and the hands are not Davos's). A switch that Sybell accepts and that mysteriously nobody notices is in line with these events, while I think it wouldn't have fit into AGOT or ACOK which are better books overall.

Wex following Osha and Rickon indeed doesn't make any sense. The FrankenGregor thing I don't see a problem with - Kevan more or less knows that it's an undead Clegane, and he believes that Mace knows as well. He doesn't want to inquire further because everyone needs for Cersei's champion to win; otherwise, Tommen's claim to the throne is put into question. And the Frey thing doesn't seem like a particular stretch - the Freys saw Davos once, briefly, and the man who is killed supposedly resembles him.

[bloodymime]

On the face of it the Wex story seems pretty bad. An ironborn boy who likely hadn't even been in a forest until he came to Winterfell is going to track Osha and more to the point Shaggydog without being caught seems a little outlandish. Unless there's more to the story. What is an ironborn boy who likely hadn't even been in a forest until he came to Winterfell going to do? He's not going to want to strike out on his own in a completely strange land. Whatever way he goes he's going to be travelling on foot for hundred of miles through basically enemy territory. In that case it only makes sense he'd follow somebody no matter where they were going.

After that it just becomes speculation. Osha says she plans to follow the kingsroad a ways so they wouldn't exactly be hard to find. Maybe Wex overheard Bran and Co. talking about going north and wanted no part of it, maybe he followed them long enough to realize that's the way they headed and cut for the KR to find Osha. It's possible he followed her to begin with thinking two would be easier to sneak around than four. Then for all we know he was caught out and Osha simply didn't feel a need to kill him. She has no great tie to Winterfell and might not feel a need to kill a boy merely for being Theon's squire. He's certainly not going to tell anyone a woman caught him if he doesn't have to.

Long rambling post, point is there's no reason to think that's all there is to Wex's story just because that's all we hear.

[jlk7e]

Long rambling post, point is there's no reason to think that's all there is to Wex's story just because that's all we hear.

Fair, especially since Wex himself can't speak.

[WinterWarrior]

First, I think we are done with Jeyne Westerling. I think she is gone from the story. I doubt we will hear of her again unless it is a Stark revenge on her mother. I certainly do not see her as any queen of westeros. I believe the younger, beautiful queen of the prophecy is Dany or Sansa.

Second, this is fantasy fiction. Why not have Wex follow Osha and Rickon? Things do not need to be logical or believable - do we believe dragons really exist? I say let go, relax and just enjoy the fantastic story for what it is. It's fantasy!

[janedl]

Is everyone so sure that Raynald Westerling is dead?

He is described as being shot twice after cutting Grey Wind loose at the Red Wedding, and then throwing himself in the river. Jaime asks, "Did you find his corpse afterward?" and Edwyn Frey replies, "We found a thousand corpses afterward. Once they've spent a few days in the river they all look much the same."

So maybe - but maybe not. IF the switch took place and Jeyne escaped from Riverrun, she and the Blackfish could find Reynald, perhaps with the BwB and the late Catelyn?

[The-Spiders-Little-Bird]

On some level, I think Martin will have to provide a set of Lords Paramount for the story to come to a happy conclusion by the end of the books. If Edmure dies, any child of Rob would be the rightful Lord of the Trident. It conceivable to me that the final conclusion of the book could be a situation where all the lands are ruled by lords friendly to what we have to assume will be a Stark/Targarian alliance, and a Stark/Tully on the throne in Riverrun would forward this end. It doesn't seem to be a central issue, but at least in passing it makes sense. On the other hand, there could be some kind of conspiracies in the Riverlands if Edmure has a son and is then killed by the Freys. Then we have a Frey/Tully and a Stark/Tully to deal with, and i'm sure there will be interesting consequences.

[houseHB]

If Jeyne will be the queen, who will be her King? Will Jon do what Ned did when Brandon died and marry Jeyne to honor Robb and raise his child?

[srg]

Small, maybe insignificant point:

Isn't Jeyne's crown with the Freys? Ryman Frey's "Queen of Whores" in the camp outside Riverun had a bronze crown ringed with iron swords, a mirror of the crown Lady Stoneheart was holding when she met Brienne.

[bloodymime]

Small, maybe insignificant point:

Isn't Jeyne's crown with the Freys? Ryman Frey's "Queen of Whores" in the camp outside Riverun had a bronze crown ringed with iron swords, a mirror of the crown Lady Stoneheart was holding when she met Brienne.

No, that's most likely Robb's crown the Freys brought from the Twins and the BWD took when they hanged said Freys.

[thunder_chicken]

From the previous page- about whether Tywin pushed the marriage- I never assumed it was on his radar before the Westerling castle was taken, but that there were potentially chances for ravens to come and go while Robb was recuperating and Robb and Jeyne were falling in love. Tywin would be quick enough to realize the upside for the Lannisters if Robb broke his bargain with the Freys, and at that time would have formulated the plan/made the bargain with Jeyne's parents to make sure Robb got married ASAP. Just think of how quickly Cercei realized the importance when she received the letter about Robb's marriage.

I think it would have been pretty unfathomable to someone like Tywin (who's always seeing the politics) that Robb could have done something so stupid/honorable, but when the possibility did suggest itself, he (Tywin) would have jumped at the opportunity. I mean even Ned went and had himself a bastard.

[Bran the Winged Wolf]

There was another Jeyne Westerling maried to a Targaryen if you search the Targaryen family tre...hmmm...since Bran can see into the past and the future thru the weirwood at Winterfell...what of that?

[Booknerd2]

Well, the author does have fun with his readers. It would not be the first switch or case of mistaken identity. I thought of Jeyne Poole. It would be a kick if both Jeyne's changed identities as characters.

But if she has a baby, do the Westerlings cause problems if the Starks ever return to Winterfell?

[richard_ba]

Well, the author does have fun with his readers. It would not be the first switch or case of mistaken identity. I thought of Jeyne Poole. It would be a kick if both Jeyne's changed identities as characters.

But if she has a baby, do the Westerlings cause problems if the Starks ever return to Winterfell?

Not, it is actually going to bring back the blood of first men into House Stark

[the trees have eyes]

If Prester knew that the girl was Eleyna, why wouldn't he tell Jaime?

I think the clue there is, "As you say, my lord." As in, he's deferring to Jaime, maybe considers it a harmless mistake and doesn't want to "correct" him. Anyway, for me, the takeaway from that exchange isn't necessarily that Prester knows it's Elenya, it's that Jaime says that Jeyne is "twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were to ever escape us." Seems like some foreshadowing to me.

And @Faint, I think it depends entirely on where the Blackfish goes. I could see him making for the Vale, running into the Brotherhood, hiking up North, etc. So you have Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, or any of the northern POVs as possibilities.

That just doesn't make sense. It is clear as day to everyone that Jeyne, as Robb's widow, is exceptionally dangerous if she can produce an heir. That is why Jaime tells Prestor to take so many guards and, at the hint of any escape attempt, to kill her.

If Ser Forley Prestor, a staunch bannerman of the Lannisters, realised that it wasn't Jeyne but her younger sister masquerading as her then he damn well would have understood the implications and told Jaime. It's far from a harmless mistake and Prestor surely would have told him he'd been sold a pup.