The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Dr. Pepper]

I really think this is wishful thinking. Jeyne was 16 and Elenya 12. There is no way these two are going to be mistaken for eachother. The similarities in description are more substantial than the still marginal difference in the one comment about hips from two different character perspectives (Jaime and Catelyn). Sybell Spicer is quite clear that she gave her daughter moon tea pretending it was a posset to improve her chances of becoming pregnant (what a mother!). Jeyne's grief when Jaime sees her is AFFC seemed real enough to me, there is no resaon to suspect it is feigned or she an imposter. The comment about the cut on her forehead resulting from when her mother literally snatched the crown off her head while they fought over it seemed real enough as well. And the bit when Jaime asks if she is pregnant and she becomes almost hysterical and runs out of the room seemed pretty darn real to me too. She knew it was her duty to give Robb an heir, she loved him and tried her best and all the time her mother was betraying her and ensuring she didn't. I'd say that was Jeyne overcome with grief and guilt and the hurt of betrayal not her little sister.

"Jeyne's" grief around Jaime after the siege is totally out-of-character for the Jeyne we read about when Cat was around. She was shy and stoic and almost timid. The only time she wasn't was when she chased after Robb as he was leaving for the Twins, but she wasn't being overly dramatic about it. Even before I started realizing the discrepancies, the 'grief' seemed like over-acting. The exaggeration of the grief display is what made, I think, a lot of readers start questioning whether or not it was the real Jeyne. Elenya Westerling grew up knowing the song "The Rains of Castamere." Likely her mother roughed her up a little and reminded her what could happen to all of them should they not succeed in fooling Jaime. I'm 30 and I'd be scared as fuck about the possibility that my house could be exterminated. Can't imagine how a 13-year-old would feel about it. Plus there's the fact that there was never any mention of a crown for Jeyne.

[bloodymime]

Eleyna isn't "missing". She's just not discussed.... Well, not exactly not discussed. Jaime says outright that he's aware that Lady Spicer is in Riverrun with three children: And, what's this? Lady Westerling brings her up in conversation with Jaime as well: So... I don't get it. Jaime knows both girls are there. How is he supposed to miss the fact that Eleyna is missing? "Oh, they have some other girl pretending to be Eleyna, too," seems to me the obvious answer... and don't you realize how far-fetched it all seems? So the idea that Jaime has somehow lost track of this fact and now believes it's just Jeyne and Rollam is very hard to be credulous about. The idea that there's a double-fake going on, Eleyna pretending to be Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of pretending to be Eleyna, is very difficult to be credlous about. This is one of those ideas that sounds nice on paper, but the logistics make no sense unless the author is very heavily putting his thumb on the scale to get an unrealistic outcome. The hip thing? A mistake by GRRM or indicating that Catelyn and Jaime have different standards when it comes to what narrow and wide hips are.

A couple of girls pretending to be people they're not to a man that doesn't know them is hardly any more far fetched than any other imposter story line in these books. The miller just happens to have two boys who just happen to be the right age and size to use as fakes for Bran and Rickon. Melisandre just happens to suddenly be able to create a strong enough glamour to fool everyone into thinking the Lord of Bones is Mance, seriously is there a bottom to this lady's bag of tricks? Whateve is needed to move the plot she suddenly shows a knowledge for. Ageon pops up out of nowhere, there's more hints and teases in this case than his. Jeyne Poole is miraculously kept on ice by the all knowing Littlefinger because obviously they're going to need a fake Arya down the road.

[houseHB]

I can see a TOJ scene act two. Jeyne to Jon, Promise me Jon, Promise me

[Fearsome Fred]

Jeyne's insistence on wearing her Queen of the North crown, just as her enemies are literally coming to sieze her, seems a bit too much for the real Jeyne.

It is almost as though she is trying to say "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME! I'M JEYNE WESTERLING! SEE? I'M WEARING THE STARK CROWN!"

But if it is misdirection - an act for the Lannister's benefit -- then it makes perfect sense.

[Ursa]

I'm not overly attached to this theory, simply because it seems a bit complex - but I would like to point out that sisters 3 1/2 years apart could have been mistaken for each other. My two older sisters are that far apart in age and when my one sis was 13/14 and the other 16/17 they often were asked by strangers who the elder sister was - to the extent that my oldest sis stopped taking my other sis with her when she went out with friends - little sis got all the attention!

Now, my two sisters don't look anything alike, so they would never be mistaken for each other, but with two look-alike sisters and one who matured really fast (as my one sis did), then yes, it is possible.

[Ran]

The miller's sons? Mance? How strange. These things work within the logic of the story. Eleyna being Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of being Eleyna... doesn't. I mean, what's the logic of it? 'Oh, well, she's actually pregnant despite her mother feeding her stuff to make sure she didn't get knocked up, and suddenly she's now supporting her daughter's effort to keep a crown despite the whole exercise being doomed and look she'll even go out of her way to parade Jeyne in front of Jaime and...'

It's too much. Take it from me, a veteran of GUCT -- sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes the width of a girl's hips is a matter of opinion. ;)

Jeyne was head over heels for Robb. In that scene, she shows it. She wears her heart on her sleeve. We have hardly had enough time with the character to determine what is or isn't in character, so every argument that "it doesn't seem like her" just falls flat as far as I'm concerned.

[David Selig]

"Jeyne's" grief around Jaime after the siege is totally out-of-character for the Jeyne we read about when Cat was around. She was shy and stoic and almost timid.

Jeyne had exactly one real conversation with Catelyn, way too little to establish her real character. Given the circumstances, it made perfect sense for her to act more timid than she really was. It was her first real talk with her mother-in-law, after all. And she must've known Catelyn aranged the Frey deal which was ruined by Jeyne and Robb's marriage, another reason to act more timidly.

[bloodymime]

Of course they work within the story as long as you want to suspend disbelief. Otherwise the nine year old master of disguise ninja girl is just incredibly silly. Sorry, just another widly implausible imposter I forgot about.

I have no problem with the idea of her mother playing both sides of the field. God forbid anybody in the Westerlands dare not roll over and give up their belly to Lord Tywin if he so much as twitches an eyebrow. Personally I think it suits the story that sense of hubris in him is shown to be shown for foolery for more than just talking shit to Tyrion with a crossbow pointed at him.

Apple Martini and others as well have made tons of good points showing why this is possible. I'll just add when it comes to the hips that the difference unless an outright mistake by the author is pretty telling. I'm going to expect the lady that's looking at these girls as nothing more than broodmares able to pop out wolf pups one after the other to be more critical of Jeyne's hips than the Kingslayer that frankly isn't going to give a damn. If Kingslayer is thinking her hips are too narrow Cat's going to think she has the hips of a five year old boy yet she does in fact feel her hips are just fine.

The most interesting discrepency to me personally is Cat's very first desription of the girl. Cat and Kingslayer both see chestnut curls, brown eyes and a slender or willowy frame. Yet when Cat first sees Jeyne, across a crowded room of people condemning her and sunk in the misery off all she's lost and the scared to death feeling of facing Robb for the first time since freeing Kingslayer, the first thing she notices is the family resemblance between Jeyne and her mother with another younger girl that just happens to be there with them. Move forward to Kingslayers descrption of the girl while he's standing right next to the two of them alone and you get a check for check match of description except for shy turning into awkward. Yet no mention of the family resemblance.

Ha, this is also the series that has the half nosed dwarf trying to travel incognito by dressing up in motley. Though Mr. Martin hasn't quite gone so crazy as to make it sound completely plausible... yet. At one point Tommen will likely peel off his face to say 'aHa! yes it is I Tyrion who has taken the night course at the faceless man school of finishing thus conveniently always missing the amazing and wondrous nine year old master of disguise ninja girl that could reveal me through her pov. Cersei! I killed our father, prepare to die.'

Sadly if you're being honest with yourself that wouldn't even be the most implausible storyline we've had of Tyrion.

[jblair]

Not sure why some people are annoyed with all of the switched identity plotlines. In a land with large distances, slow travel, limited communication, and no photographs, seems to me this would happen all the time. And would generally work, at least for a little while.

[Pellaeon]

I don't believe she isn't Jeyne, come on she was pregnant and swim her way out, no

[Fearsome Fred]

The miller's sons? Mance? How strange. These things work within the logic of the story.

They do? You must know something the rest of us don't, because I still don't know where it is all going, assuming it is going anywhere.

Eleyna being Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of being Eleyna... doesn't. I mean, what's the logic of it?

Presumably, to help a pregnant girl avoid getting murdered by the Lannisters.

'Oh, well, she's actually pregnant despite her mother feeding her stuff to make sure she didn't get knocked up, [...]

Wow! Like that could NEVER happen. Imagine. Someone getting pregnant despite contraception. UNHEARD OF!

Never mind that the only evidence of these contraceptive efforts comes from a mom trying to convince the ruthless Lannesters that her daughter is not pregnant and therefore need not be killed or otherwise "managed".

[...] and suddenly she's now supporting her daughter's effort to keep a crown [...]

More like ... suddenly she's now supporting her daughter's effort to stay alive.

[...] and look she'll even go out of her way to parade Jeyne in front of Jaime and...' It's too much.

Yes. Why go out of her way to parade Jeyne ... unless Jeyne is not really Jeyne?

[jarl the climber]

I have to go with Ran on this despite some of the oddities that others have noted. I've never bought into Elenya posing as Jeyne, the only possibility that I see is that there was another girl, a look alike, but as I've noted before this has always seemed unlikely because the Westermen would know her and not be fooled. Unless some of these Lannister bannermen are sympathetic to the Westerlings and are emboldened by the death of Tywin to defy Lannister power. Another thing that we can't rule out is that Jeyne will be used to produce a Stark pretender to the detriment of the true Starks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't believe she isn't Jeyne, come on she was pregnant and swim her way out, no

Pregnant women swim all the time, especially if they're not far along.

[Budj]

Pregnant women swim all the time, especially if they're not far along.

nu uh...the baby would drown.

[danm_999]

The hip thing? A mistake by GRRM or indicating that Catelyn and Jaime have different standards when it comes to what narrow and wide hips are.

GRRM is a very deliberate writer. It's why the books take so long to come out. He obviously wants this to either be the foundation for a Jeyne identity switch, or a red herring to keep us talking.

[Ygrain]

The miller's sons? Mance? How strange. These things work within the logic of the story. Eleyna being Jeyne and some random girl we've never heard of being Eleyna... doesn't. I mean, what's the logic of it? 'Oh, well, she's actually pregnant despite her mother feeding her stuff to make sure she didn't get knocked up, and suddenly she's now supporting her daughter's effort to keep a crown despite the whole exercise being doomed and look she'll even go out of her way to parade Jeyne in front of Jaime and...' It's too much. Take it from me, a veteran of GUCT -- sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes the width of a girl's hips is a matter of opinion. ;) Jeyne was head over heels for Robb. In that scene, she shows it. She wears her heart on her sleeve. We have hardly had enough time with the character to determine what is or isn't in character, so every argument that "it doesn't seem like her" just falls flat as far as I'm concerned.

Well, not even present day contraceptives work 100%, not to mention the fact that Jeyne might have found out that it was moon tea and stopped taking it.

As for Sibyll helping Jeyne, the incentive to keep her daughter alive is quite strong, as others have pointed out, though I suspect she would rather pull a Hoster and "helped" Jeyne not to be pregnant again. However, she has one more strong point to cross Tywin: revenge. She was a dutiful vassal, fed her daughter contaceptives, and what did she get in reward? Her son gets killed for no other reason than Tywin's usual "was too preoccupied to issue an order", like with Elia. A fatal mistake, the consequences of which are only going to be unleashed... I think it's not a stretch to believe that the death of Raynald Westerling might have consequences, as well.

I'm not as convinced about this theory as much as about R+L, but if GRRM goes through with it, I see nothing wrong, there is sufficiently plausible background for it.

[bloodymime]

I don't believe she isn't Jeyne, come on she was pregnant and swim her way out, no

People keep bringing this up and not being a woman or ever being pregnant I have no idea what's possible here so I thought I'd look around. Obvious place to start is to just search for pictures of pregnant women swimming. You immediately see some pretty damn pregnant women diving down a lot deeper in the water than I would have expected.

http://2.bp.blogspot...th-by-Month.jpg

People work out the timeline of her most likely being three months pregnant, as seen on that chart they don't even bother showing what three months in looks like because four months is barely noticable.

At the very least she'd have the Blackfish helping her. I'd strongly suspect Edmure would be only too willing to give a little screw you to the Kingslayer by sending at least one more strong swimmer along to help. The logistics are entirely possible.

http://xaxor.com/bizarre/6518-pregnant-women-swim-with-dolphins.html

Pictures of a very pregnant women not only swimming but snorkeling out in the ocean with a bunch of dolphins.

[Melq]

I believe Jeyne Westerling escaped with the Blackfish, about being pregnant I will give it 25% chances.

Reading between lines, in this particular case there is an error in the translation about Jeyne description in AFFC by Jaime. There are some strange things too about Jeyne and her pregnancy besides the stated already (Description,Stark banners, Blackfish words, etc..):

AFFC: Jaime's Chapter

“Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling’s daughter as well.”

Ser Forley seemed taken aback. “Gawen’s girl? She’s—”

“—the Young Wolf’s widow,” Jaime finished, “and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us.”

“As you say, my lord. She will be watched.”

This line in the Spanish version is even more suspicious, because its translated " Gawen's little girl? "

About pregnancy in aSoS: Catelyn Chapter when they start the travel to the Twins.

All the time the king and queen were talking, Grey Wind prowled around them, stopping only to shake the water from his coat and bare his teeth at the rain.

This doesn't say much, but the behavior is strange because before Grey Wind was acting strange/hostile against Westerlings.

[Blackhaven]

I think the Jeyne theory is plausible. We know that when the writer uses POV's that their perception can be flawed and not always taken as factual. The way Catelyn and Jamie think of hips for example, could be different. Also, time is passing and little girls are growing up. Arya too is starting to be seen now as having some beauty in Braavos, instead of being Arya Horse Face. Lyanna obviously possessed some beauty along with her noticeable spirit and it would seem that Arya is now growing into that appearance. So...the little women of westeros are growing up and are at a time when their bodies are changing.

I think we can say that GRRM left this door open. Only time will tell if he explores it with us. Personally, I hope he will :)

[Blackhaven]

I hate this theory so much, but I think it's correct - something I realized the other day was that even if Sybell was giving Jeyne moon tea in general after they got married, she might not have had the chance to do so the very first night Robb/Jeyne slept together, which would have been more of a surprise, and so perhaps that is when Jeyne conceived. I even wonder if that is why they are emphasizing the relationship more on the show, because they know it will ultimately play a role in the resolution of the final 2 books. The Bran vision totally sold me that it will happen, like it or not.

What Bran vision are you thinking about? The boy with the wolf's head?