The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[A wilding]

And Jeyne Heddle was not pregnant either ...

[aedalia]

Oona Chaplin's character in the TV show still being "Talisa from Volantis" instead of "Jeyne" puts a pretty heavy damper on this idea, although there's still time for her to swerve and reveal.

I don't think it necessarily does- I actually think it streamlines things a bit. With Jeyne being Talisa, they don't have to worry about explaining the house politics, nor would they have to explain the sister switch on screen, or the "fertility potion." Talisa can just run away (possibly with Blackfish) when Robb gets dead and then show up again with the baby.

[Wimsey]

eh, this is all highly wishful (and correspondingly spurious) thinking. Jeyne's parents were still loyal to the Lannisters and seemingly still reporting to him: remember that Tyrion was quite surprised that Tywin was not angry at the Westerling's defection; in fact, he actually seemed pleased! Jeyne's mother was doping her with a birth control potion all the while, after all. Remember, there was a big debate after Swords as to whether Jeyne had essentially been an unwitting plant: and Crows seemed to confirm that. (I had thought it convoluted 10 years ago, but Sybell Spicer's conversation with Jaimie did seem to confirm it; at any rate, the few people who still worried about it when Crows finally came out claimed victory on that point!)

The "baby" that people want already is in the series: Rickon. Davos is charged with searching for him, and Rickon's return will be the "long lost heir" plot device that people want.

As for the putative "hips" clue, I would put no stock in it. As people have noted, Martin can be inconsistent: and many parts of Crow were written several years after Swords. Moreover, remember that we have the subjective viewpoints of the protagonists. Catelyn is probably more objective, as she's looking for breeding stock for her sons. Jaimie's views are tainted by his ideal of Cersei as the perfect woman: and as we know, by Crows she was putting on weight and she's also had 3 kids, which means her hips are a lot wider than they used to be. (Cersei blames some of this on her laundress shrinking her dresses.) So, a well-hipped teenage girl who never has born children is going to seem to have narrow hips to a man who's ideal of feminine beauty has 3-birthed, middle aged hips!

[richard_ba]

My mother who read brazilian portuguese version of ASoIaF pointed it out the discrepancy used to describe her from Jaime perspective, she also pointed out to the fact that Jaime also noticed a birthmark on her forehead (almost a wart) which Catelyn didn't describe.

[richard_ba]

I'm tired today, but tomorrow I'll write some things about this theory that have been far from fetched, IMO there is a lot of background to support it, not only the narrow vs good thing.

[Ran]

Ah, the translation is mistaken, or your mother is I'm afraid. :)

In AFfC, it's noted that Jeyne has a scab on her forehead, which is explained by her struggle to keep her crown on while her mother tore it away. That must be the thing that your mother read as a birthmark, or which the translation mistakingly indicates is a birthmark.

[lojzelote]

This theory is very possible, no matter how much I dislike it.

However, if it turns out that it was truly Elenya whom Jaime saw, then I'm going to be forever wroth with GRRM. I mean - he invented both Jeyne and Elenya, he chose their ages, respectively 16- and 12-year-old. Why not make Elenya only a year or two younger than her sister? To mistake a 14/15-year-old for a 16-year-old would be perfectly understandable. A 12-year-old girl for a 16-year-old one? Not so much. Even Maester Aemon would know the difference if he heard the girl talk. If there was at least any mention of Jeyne being extremely scrawny or of Elenya being surprisingly developed for her age... But no.

[Evil Jay]

I'm curious because I may have completely missed something: Some comments refer to the possibility that Jaime saw another girl (Elenya) or the possibility that someone was pretending to be Elenya. If my memory serves me correctly, GRRM was quite detailed in the fact that Jaime seemed to observe everything about families of those who he was visiting in his journey and those families he was dealing with during surrender negotiations. I do not recall Jaime ever noticing Elenya being present, and it seemed quite clear that the Westerlings were short one child (Elenya).

I think it's quite possible, even feasible, that Elenya was impersonating Jeyne. The reasons "for" seem to grossly outweigh the reasons "against" I've read, and quite frankly, seem more plausible than deceptions we have already witnessed in the books. Sure, GRRM may be planting a red herring. I find it hard to believe, given the detailed inventories Jaime rightfully took of the families and his relevant observations, that GRRM would put that much effort into... nothing. It's there for a reason, whether to get us to talk about it (Success!) or because he wanted to leave the door open for later (Also a success!) or because it is what we think it is. (We shall see).

[Ran]

See here, where I quote Jaime's statement that he expects to find Lady Sybelle with three of her children (Jeyne, Eleyna, Rollam), and where Lady Sybelle makes a point of mentioning her younger daughter to Jaime.

There's no suggestion that in the time he was based in Riverrun, Jaime failed to notice that Eleyna was missing. Which means that you then need a double-fake -- Eleyna impersonating Jeyne, some random girl we've never met impersonating Eleyna. It's not plausible.

I also, frankly, don't recall any suggestion that Jaime is especially interested in family dynamics. He cares about the famous warriors and knights -- he knows all the names worth knowing -- but I can't say he knows who married who and whose daughter is whose. So, I don't think GRRM invested any kind of energy in making us think that something is wrong.

So far, the suggestion we seem to have is that the Spanish translator -- who's met GRRM a number of times, I know -- seems to have corrected the "hips" problem in the Spanish edition, and there's a claim out there that GRRM actually admitted this was an error. Take it for what it's worth.

[richard_ba]

Ah, the translation is mistaken, or your mother is I'm afraid. :)

In AFfC, it's noted that Jeyne has a scab on her forehead, which is explained by her struggle to keep her crown on while her mother tore it away. That must be the thing that your mother read as a birthmark, or which the translation mistakingly indicates is a birthmark.

Thanks, I lead her to believe in this mistake, I read it in english and I mistook scab for a birthmark

[richard_ba]

Ok, people often say it was a mistake, oh well, it could be a mistake, but from what I know George wrote about Jeyne's hips three times, he insisted on her fertility feature twice with Catelyn.

In Cat II,

She was pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She should have no trouble bearing children, at least.

and in Cat III

The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

and finally where it all begins, in Jaime VII

Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe.

And it is funny because such a characteristic is mentioned twice in a short matter of time, because it was prominent, contradicting Jaime's statement. There are many reasons why people shouldn't believe in this theory, first of all, like many people said before, it was an error introduced in the book (Martin is just a human and he is prone to error), also there is another factor, Sybell in no way could have sided with The North, Tywin's wrath is known as per The Rains of Castamere and historically the Westerlings are loyal to the Warden of the West. From books perspective Sybell is siding with Tywin way before The Red Wedding took place, she was giving her daughter a contraceptive, and they would be actually rewarded for doing so.

The whole theory is also based upon a single discrepancy which also makes the theory fragile, and this is also understandable. Jaime is a man and Catelyn a mother, Catelyn was caring about her fertility and her characteristic about bearing a children and being a mother as well, Jaime would look towards her beauty and attractiveness. And the last issue is, why would Martin bother about introducing a heir to Winterfell, introducing a newborn child to the history would mess it completely, he couldn't do anything unless he came off age, and Martin is right now against changing timespan, so a newborn Stark would be both a plot hole and a pain in the ass, we already have several Starks around (Bran beyond The Wall, Rickon in Skagos, Arya in Essos, Sansa in The Eerye and we have Jon), we don't need another heir. There are three possible candidates to Winterfell reclaim and two in the progress, Sansa and Rickon.

These are all the most comprehensive facts against the lieu theory, but I'm most inclined to believe in the contrary, even though people say it is a mistake (Martin committed mistakes in the past, including in the series, for example both Renly's eye and a horse's gender), but Martin is way too perfectionist, if it is really a mistake, we would have an announcement, like he did about Renly's eye and that no, Renly was dead as Ned and Robert were, but even if it is a mistake, it became a part of the series right now and this issue most be dealt with. IMO Martin didn't miss this thing (there is a team behind his work as well, editors, revisers and all), he didn't let a singular mistake take place and if he did, he must be aware about it right now.

If he is aware about it, there are two options either he can weave about it or he can retcon (even through a internal statement), but I believe that this was just a hint of something that he had been foreshadowing the whole series, but firstly lets start through the heir thing. There are currently four Starks alive (excluding Jon), and introducing another heir would be superfluous, we already have Sansa, Rickon, Bran and Arya, and some of you consider that Robb's will induced Jon to become the new King In The North. But lets talk about it, Sansa and Arya are both girls, their claim are weak, even though they come in line of succession, both Bran and Rickon are believed to be death and Jon, he faced death as well as per ADwD ending.

There is another thing, if either Brandon or Arya return, how would people believe they are real starks, and Bran is right now good for nothing, her is crippled, it is like Martin castrated Bran from the beginning to make sure that people wouldn't mind him passing away any Winterfell claim. Arya is on the training of becoming a skilful assassin, Rickon is still too young, Martin has showed us that he is an infant, and that he is futile and serves to no purpose other than a probably sock-puppetry, both Bran and Rickon are believed to be death, and the only witness to the fact that they are still alive are Theon, Ramsay, Osha, Hodor, Samwell, Meera, Jojen and Theon's squire, and only the dumb boy revealed it though. Which leaves us with Sansa, who is being made a key plot to Petyr's schemes, but if she claims Winterfell, it is going to be under the control of House Hardyng, not Stark (if the scheme is fulfilled, which I bet it is not going to be), but in meanwhile she is posing as a baseborn girl, Alayane Stone, bastard daughter of Petyr Baelish.

I won't discuss Jon, there are plenty discussions out there, in sum, Jon refused Stannis proposal to become Lord of Winterfell, why would he accept Robb's will?

Ok, the superfluous thing regarding the possible heir growing in Jeyne's womb is not superfluous at all, why not? Only if we take in account that to succeed and resume power this child nees to be old enough to cement the consolidation of this so called position, but if this is superfluous why the Lannisters worried so much about it? Why did they want to make sure that she couldn't get pregnant in any time shorter or that she didn't escape? The King's peace is yet unsettled and any possible newborn coming from Jeyne would break any contract and any amendments, but can we take all this in accounts when the sole theory is based upon just a different perspective from both characters, in this case Cat and Jaime, I'm going to tell you, it is not.

But lets start with the root of this theory, the hips discrepancy, both characters notice it, Catelyn in instance notice how wide it is and how this feature is going to help her if she ever gets to get pregnant by Robb, the same concern Catelyn raises later while the arrangements of Edmure's marriage are in the going, she regards how frail and how narrow her hips are and goes even further as to ask about her mother. And Jaime on the other hand is a man who would noticed a sexual appeal from a woman and how attractive he is (a simplistic and mediocre thought), how he did towards Cersei, how he noticed how he would tore her clothes open, how he imagined her body behind the clothes, how he noticed the girl in Harrenhal and how he even described Brienne, but the man who described Jeyne was not the same Jaime people used to hate, the same arrogant and gallant fool warrior. He isn't merely a man, but a pragmatic man who is capable of describing a woman not by her sexual attractiveness. In the end of AFFC sex is the last thing that Jaime is concerned about. And to support this I'm going to address how worried he is about politics, before his encounter with Sybell and Jeyne (and even after it, when he resumed Blackwood's siege), he treats sexual encounters (Freys and Brackens all alike and when he re-encounters Lancel and his unfaithful wife) with disregards and to the point of "men should avoid it to resolve conflicts". How he described Jeyne thoroughly is enough to show his actual change. Believing that his comments on the girl's narrow hips is not from a man who would judge her by her sexual attractiveness and that to arouse him she would need to have large hips, and sexism is not a feature that I think could be linked to Jaime.

I think that this is far from fetched, and like Lannisters we were all fooled, but why? Why would Martin put another Stark in the game? Lets take a perspective from Ned, who we all loved and put our hopes on, that we would make a good King's Hand and all, but suddenly things go bad and he is decapitated, soon we found our hopes in his oldest son, Robb and even though we never had a POV from him many fans loved him, more than POV characters, and we believe that he is going to be a good king and all, but suddenly things go bad and he is murdered. Ok, this isn't a strong argument to tell that "ok, Robb's son is going to take revenge on all this", no, I'm not telling this, but why didn't he have a POV? How can we be so sure that the fertility potions are fertility potions or the contrary? How can we be sure that Jeyne was taking it all along as well? How true is Sybell story about this? Martin is very plausible in this factor, we can only be sure about something if we saw it happening, I was sure Davos didn't die because we hadn't a reliable narrator or observer around, I'm sure that Ygritte died because Jon witnessed it, the same applies to Oberyn, Rhaegar, we saw how Berric died and ressurected, but when it comes to mystery it stays a mystery, we are not so sure about Syrio's death, about Sandor's and we weren't sure about Aegon's death (even though I believe him to be dead, lol). We have no guarantee that what is told to us are in fact true.

This would lead us to take a deeper look at Sybell Spicer, but is there anything we can take into account? I don't think so, we have little precious information about her proceedings and her family, which by no means support it, but we can take someone else to add information to the rig. Lets take a conversation which Tyrion was a mere observer, between Tywin and his brother.

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...

So what can we take from this, we came to know the word Maegi, which is such a female Maester but dedicated to either dark or blood magic, for example Mirri Maz Duz, Shiera Seastar, The Woods Wtich, they all used black or blood magic for some purpose, Sybell's grandmother was supposedly a maegi, can we assume that Maggy is a slur, this would lead us to believe that Maggy The Frog is Sybell's grandmother. Which by all accounts was visited by Cersei, and gave her the prophecy she fears so much. Does this give us any clues? Yes it does, but if it does, where is it? Was Maggy's gift inherited? Does Sybell know about Cersei visit and that Cersei could be possibly responsible for her grandmother death? We could presume that there was something magical about Jeyne and Robb's meeting, I think it is safe to say that she probably used a love potion on him. Later on we also came across another potion, this time a fertility potion. Could Sybell see the future as well? She could foreseen that Jeyne was going to become a queen, but that she would be killed and to prevent this she could have her own agenda, if we consider the farseer thing Sybell could be a derived form of Sybil which in Greek means Seer. Her motives to work along Tywin seem plausible, she wanted gains, but why would she switch from her daughter being a queen, to just a bastard consort, Jaime suggests a match for Jeyne and his brother, both would marry Lannister bastards. And if she was siding the Lannisters why she allowed Raynald to go to The Twins, she didn't know about the RW, but she knew things would go ugly.

There is another thing that I found curious regarding Jeyne, Arya and Sansa, if the Jeyne theory is true, it isn't a new theme, it is actually a reocurring event, think of Jeyne Poole posing as Arya, a lowborn posing as a highborn one, and Sansa posing as Alayane is just the contrary, there is a lot of paralels involving them, all of them must hide their true identity in order for a higher goal. And to finish it up, I think that somehow Jeyne escaped before the end of the siege of Riverrun, or with Blackfish, and I think that the contents of Robb's will are related with this.

[Danelle]

I don't think it necessarily does- I actually think it streamlines things a bit. With Jeyne being Talisa, they don't have to worry about explaining the house politics, nor would they have to explain the sister switch on screen, or the "fertility potion." Talisa can just run away (possibly with Blackfish) when Robb gets dead and then show up again with the baby.

In FFC, when Jaime meets Jeyne he tells her mother that the girl must not marry for two years. It was a precaution. If Jeyne married soon after Robb died and got pregnant then people would speculate that the child was Robb's. The Lannister gave Winterfell and Arya to Bolton and the last thing they want is Robb's heir. If the theory is true and Jeyne run away, how can they explain that in the tv series? Talisa in that case would be a fugitive wanted by Lannisters and Boltons, especially if they suspect that she is pregnant with Robb's child. In FFC since we are introduced to Jeyne through Jaime's pov, we can assume that she is not the same girl that Robb met and married but in the tv series it will be difficult to explain that. This is probably off topic but did the producers ever explained the change from Jeyne to Talisa?

[Ran]

And it is funny because such a characteristic is mentioned twice in a short matter of time,

For all we know, GRRM wrote those two Catelyn chapters back to back, and so his noting it in those two chapters isn't really weird. Hard for him to lose track! Whereas the Jaime AFfC chapter was written, quite literaly, years afterward.

but Martin is way too perfectionist, if it is really a mistake, we would have an announcement

There was no "announcement" about Renly's eyes. GRRM was asked about it by fans and answered the question. It became one of his anecdotes about errors, but that hardly means that's the only error. GRRM hates errors, but to suggest that he goes out of the way to let people know about all the errors is absolutely wrong.

But for what it's worth, we have someone who claims they asked George about the hips and he answered them, saying it was in fact a mistake.

[aedalia]

In FFC, when Jaime meets Jeyne he tells her mother that the girl must not marry for two years. It was a precaution. If Jeyne married soon after Robb died and got pregnant then people would speculate that the child was Robb's. The Lannister gave Winterfell and Arya to Bolton and the last thing they want is Robb's heir. If the theory is true and Jeyne run away, how can they explain that in the tv series? Talisa in that case would be a fugitive wanted by Lannisters and Boltons, especially if they suspect that she is pregnant with Robb's child. In FFC since we are introduced to Jeyne through Jaime's pov, we can assume that she is not the same girl that Robb met and married but in the tv series it will be difficult to explain that. This is probably off topic but did the producers ever explained the change from Jeyne to Talisa?

As far as I know, they haven't, but in some ways, I think the switch makes the Jeyne theory more plausible. By making her Talisa, they can have her just run off with the Blackfish and not have to explain the Westerlings/Moon tea at all which would be boring on TV and take up a lot of time. This way, she's a free agent.

[drsenbei]

One special feature of the whole Ice and Fire saga is that this is not a fairytale. It would be nice that Jeyne was pregnant and give birth a new Stark, but GRRM is specialized in killing characters unexpectedly.

[Rantz]

Yeah...I think Martin just made a mistake tbh.

[Nailryan]

ok even if jeyne did escape with the blackfish then what happens then?? it will take too long in the story line for robbs heir to get to adulthood. even at that all the remaining armys will try to hunt her and the child down, stannis cause he needs the help of the northern armys and jaime because her mother deceived him.. maybe blackfish could take her to the vale???

[Peach Fuzz]

Wasn't the old woman on the hill the related or is the maegi that cersei is on about? And isn't jenny of oldstones her daughter who was married to a targ (possibly egg or one of his sons) thatdied at summerhall?

[Baelor Swyft]

Very interesting thread. I had long since given up on The Pregnant Jeyne Theory as a bit of colorful wishful thinking that had unfortunately been all but discredited, ala Syrio-H'ghar. I seem to remember there being some damning piece of evidence that put the kibosh on pregnant Jeyne, but I read through nearly this whole thread and didn't see it come up. I'm not saying she's pregnant, but it remains a possibility.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I don't think it necessarily does- I actually think it streamlines things a bit. With Jeyne being Talisa, they don't have to worry about explaining the house politics, nor would they have to explain the sister switch on screen, or the "fertility potion." Talisa can just run away (possibly with Blackfish) when Robb gets dead and then show up again with the baby.

This. Sort of like how they dropped the whole Reek/Ramsey bit at Winterfell (in part because I think it would have been too confusing in addition to requiring Ramsey to be cast a season earlier) and streamlined the story there. The fact that Talisa isn't connected to any house removes the needs to cast any of the Westerlings. They don't even have to get rid of Magi per se (i.e. she can still foretell Cersei's doom) but just eliminate the fact that her granddaughter marries a Lannister enemy.