The Jeyne Westerling Theory

[Waylin Stark]

I don't think Jeyne was switched or anything, primarily because of the fact that her people were conspiring with the Lannisters and Freys in the first place, and she's been having moon tea everyday.

[western wolf]

I only just recently learned of the theory that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's baby before the Red Wedding.

And personally, I really quite love the idea, but only because of how tragically and suddenly Robb died.

As the theory goes, Jeyne was switched in Riverrun with some other girl, and escaped with the Blackfish.

But, unfortunatley, I don't think this theory is feasible.

If she were pregnant before Robb left, she would have been enormous by the time Jaime arrived in Riverrun.

And what exceedingly pregnant woman fit to bursting can swim in a raging river in silence and under half-open portcullises?

Not many that I know. Swimming alone would be excruciating for her, let alone in the violent current of the Trident.

Also, the girl that Jaime meets in Riverrun was very convincing if she were not Jeyne.

She cries and acts out and is evidently suffering heartbreak, as if she had in fact lost Robb.

That sort of thing would be hard for some ordinary girl to act, especially under the pressure of a seige.

Its noted that the appearence Catelyn sees and Jaime sees are somewhat slightly different.

But Jeyne might have simply lost a lot of weight in her grief to make her hips seem narrower than before.

Also grief can ravage a person's looks, making her perhaps less pretty in Jaime's eyes.

There is also the complication of Sybell Spicer, who it seems had Jeyne drink anti-pregnancy substances.

There has always been uncertainty of the Westerling Loyalty, some think it was always to the Lannisters.

Some think that their false bonding to the Starks through Robb was Tywin's deviant doings.

If they are Lannister loyal, then likely Sybell was telling the truth, and Jeyne could not be pregnant.

Also, Martin has done this "Identity Switch" a dozen times now, would he really do it again?

Thoughts?

Younger girls don't show pregnancies the way women normally do. That might account for Westerling not looking very pregnant, if you're right on the time period.

Still, if you're right on the time period, that does seem like the type of thing that Jaime would notice but that assumes that he knew she was pregnant.

If he didn't, an imposter could reasonably have been substituted for her. After all, Jeyne poole was kept alive in KL, and we know that she is being used to impersonate Arya.

[western wolf]

ok even if jeyne did escape with the blackfish then what happens then?? it will take too long in the story line for robbs heir to get to adulthood. even at that all the remaining armys will try to hunt her and the child down, stannis cause he needs the help of the northern armys and jaime because her mother deceived him.. maybe blackfish could take her to the vale???

Blackfish would take her to whomever would be loyal to Robb. Since there appears to be no such person at present (Stannis being the best option at this point), BF would have to get the lay of the land and go to whomever would give him the best chance of allowing Robb's heir to take WInterfell. If he is willing to do that at all.

[Not a kneeler]

When I first read this theory yesterday I considered it crackpot, but once again, after rereadng the relevant material, I must reconsider my opinions. I now buy into this theory. It makes sense, it's possible. George has impllanted a few clues and, if you are willing to make the stretch, it is more than possible. It also explains why Rickon's wolf is named Shaggydog. Rickon isn't the heir.

Now I must ask myself if Sybell Westerling is a master mummer and has been playing the Lannisters all along, or has she had to cook up this ploy to protect the rest of her family after the fact.

Of course, my opinion may be worthless. I also buy into YG..

[GeorgeIAF]

I find this theory believable but i think that it is a small gap in it, nobody mentioned the fact that Grey Wind didn't like the smell of Sybell Spicer and Rolph ... So the theory which implies that Sybell and Rolph were loyal to Robb from the start is a wrong one. I hope that Jeyne Westerling escaped with the Blackfish and Bran's dream comes true .

[Baelor Swyft]

I find this theory believable but i think that it is a small gap in it, nobody mentioned the fact that Grey Wind didn't like the smell of Sybell Spicer and Rolph ... So the theory which implies that Sybell and Rolph were loyal to Robb from the start is a wrong one. I hope that Jeyne Westerling escaped with the Blackfish and Bran's dream comes true .

Most who believe in this theory would say that Sybell and Rolph were plotting against Robb, but then helped Jeyne escape because of (A) the Lannisters haven't been a generous with the Westerlings as they hoped (as clearly demonstrated in Sybell's argument with Jaime over marriages), (B) they're now hedging their bets because Tywin is dead and House Lannister isn't half so powerful as before, or © Jeyne and her sister conspired alone to have her escape, and Sybell went along with keeping it secret solely in order to avoid the wrath of Jaime & his army, since the deed was already done and can't be changed.

[Sasha Steelsong]

When I first read this theory yesterday I considered it crackpot, but once again, after rereadng the relevant material, I must reconsider my opinions. I now buy into this theory. It makes sense, it's possible. George has impllanted a few clues and, if you are willing to make the stretch, it is more than possible. It also explains why Rickon's wolf is named Shaggydog. Rickon isn't the heir.

Now I must ask myself if Sybell Westerling is a master mummer and has been playing the Lannisters all along, or has she had to cook up this ploy to protect the rest of her family after the fact.

Of course, my opinion may be worthless. I also buy into YG..

I don't know and keep going back and forth myself. On the one hand she was clearly in contact with Tywin without people's knowledge so it does seem like she was in league with him, but she's also Magi's daughter (or is she the granddaughter, either way) so I have a hard time buying that she was ever really on the Lannister's side. There is no way to tell whom she was lying to about the potion, but she was definitely lying to someone, be it her daughter or Jaime. After all if the girl they presented as Jayne really is her sister, then she wouldn't be pregnant so no way to disprove the "she got the moon tea" statement that Sybil made to Jaime.

At present I'm leaning toward her actually planning things with Tywin, but Jayne finding out and getting pregnant despite her mother's efforts, thus forcing her mother to cover up after the fact. Oddly it seems like the least convoluted, as opposed to Sybil playing both sides against each other from the beginning.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

Could be that Jaime described Jeyne as having small hips because Cersei has really big ones and she's the only one he ever looks at.

[StarkInWinterfell]

When I first read the books, I thought the difference in Jaime's description of her hips was very significant since both characters had made particular note of it. His entire meeting with the Westerlings seemed strange too so I was convinced Jeyne had escaped. It didn't seem crackpot at all to me. Was entirely logical and I was very excited.

Since then, the fact that it's been corrected in foreign editions and GRRM apparently admitted it was a mistake.. That's put a nail in the theory for me and I've given up on it. And with Rickon out there, we probably don't need another heir. Would like the theory to be true. Don't think it is.

[Cas Stark]

When I first read the books, I thought the difference in Jaime's description of her hips was very significant since both characters had made particular note of it. His entire meeting with the Westerlings seemed strange too so I was convinced Jeyne had escaped. It didn't seem crackpot at all to me. Was entirely logical and I was very excited.

Since then, the fact that it's been corrected in foreign editions and GRRM apparently admitted it was a mistake.. That's put a nail in the theory for me and I've given up on it. And with Rickon out there, we probably don't need another heir. Would like the theory to be true. Don't think it is.

Did they change the wording on the hips to be the same? I never thought it was that big a deal, myself, it wasn't as if they were each going off on a huge tangent about her body and the descriptions were totally different..it was a single word description, wasn't it 'good hips' vs. 'slim hips' or something like that?

I always thought this was a totally crackpot theory and I still do.

[StarkInWinterfell]

Did they change the wording on the hips to be the same? I never thought it was that big a deal, myself, it wasn't as if they were each going off on a huge tangent about her body and the descriptions were totally different..it was a single word description, wasn't it 'good hips' vs. 'slim hips' or something like that?

I always thought this was a totally crackpot theory and I still do.

From earlier in this thread:

In the Spanish translation of ASOS and AFFC it says "good hips" (Catelyn) and "wide hips" (Jaime); so there was not much discussion about it, except for the ones who have read it in English (and noticed Jeyne's hips) or the fans who've read the theories.

[Draco_Dracul]

I think the earliest near definitive refutation we'll get for this theory is actually going to be from the TV show. Unlike Jeyne, Talisa is going to be at the Red Wedding. If she dies that means that Jeyne's further role in the story is small enough that killing her won't effect the overall plot, basically eliminating the possibility that she is pregnant with Robb's child.

[The Black Hawk]

I hope that their child will become Lord of Winterfell

[Rheagar Prime]

i hate the idea of another switch but it just seems that way since there is no one in hell someones bone structure can change so dramatically in a short period of time. So i agree that BF did get her out of there heck even jamie said he was poor in telling people's age. So yea i think the mother played it off since her daughter was gone since she was pushing for the deals to be done quickly as well.

[Whitering]

Well, when I just reread Jaime's chapters, though I wasn't paying specific attention to this issue, I fail to remember it being mentioned to Jaime that Sybell had both daughters at Riverrun. Now, we know they were both there when Robb left, but there is no reason for anyone who knew that fact to tell Jaime about it, and why would they? Only Jeyne was important, most like the younger girl was not recalled by any who might know or care to say differently.

So, a switch is totally likely. If Jeyne was pregnant and it was showing at all, Sybell would not bring her to Jaime, and Jeyne would likely have been closely guarded. George is basically guilty of the same thing the nobles in this series are, discounting the servants who would typically be all over a castle. There is no way on earth Jaime and Cersei got away with all that incest without maids, cleaning staff, porters or whoever else noticing at least once but they are never mentioned. Likewise, here the staff at Rivverun would know there were two girls, and later only one, and almost certainly one would have seen the Blackfish leave with one of them, but, like the incest thing, George would never mention it.

[little.bird]

To me, it's the Blackfish's behaviour that supports this theory more than anything regarding Jeyne's hips. The man goes from adamantly defending Robb's queen to deserting her, potentially putting his nephew in danger...for what? Taking the black would hardly be the worst thing he could end up doing, and his defection could easily have led to Edmure's execution. Why flee if he didn't have a very, VERY good reason for doing so...like continuing to protect Jeyne, as he promised Robb? He seems to me to be an honorable man, and I can't see him abandoning his family in order to save his own skin. A life as an outlaw just one step ahead of Lannisters hunting him can hardly be better than a life up at the wall, especially if it's a life that continues to endanger his family.

[sausagekingchi]

Enough with the hips! GRRM has admitted that he writes from memory, believing he knows his characters and storylines well enough to do so, but that the scrutiny the texts come under from his avid readers have uncovered several inconsistencies. I wish I could remember where I read this (as I am sure to be challenged :box:) but I remember him giving a person's eye colour and the sex of a horse as examples. To me the hips is not some telling clue to a hidden plot but either a simple slip of no real consequence or a deliberately and slightly different description of the same person from two different character's viewpoints.

A mistake is one thing, but Catelyn's character mentions her hips MORE than once. In fact one of her chapters I think ends with her commenting on her wide hips. So this wasn't a one-time mention that could be forgotten, he made a point of mentioning her hips a few times. There is no reason for Jamie to even mention her hips unless GRRM wanted to leave us a clue.

[Lord Martin]

If I remember correctly, two Westerling daughters enter Riverrun in ASOS but only one leaves in AFFC. So regardless of hips, moon tea, GGRM's fallibility etc.... one of the Westerling girls is missing.

And I think it was Tze who did an analysis of the Blackfish's exchange with Jaime on the drawbridge to Riverrun where the Blackfish repeatedly stated his loyalty to Robb's queen. He sort of goes on and on about it.

But then he leaves her there and flees...? That doesn't quite add up.

When we combine the Blackfish's statements about Robb's Queen and the fact that one of the Westerling girls is clearly missing, that should be enough to conclude that Jeyne and the Blackfish left together.

As for pregnancies etc.... thats all speculation.

[Pharnavaziani]

I initially interpreted the different physical descriptions of the characters to mean that Jeyne had possibly been glamoured by her mother - if she's Maggy the Frog's daughter, she might have the ability.

On reflection, that possibility doesn't really make much sense to me, but I have trouble accepting that GRRM just made a mistake, with all the emphasis GRRM puts on Jeyne's physique in both the Catelyn and Jaime chapters.

[Riptide]

I haven't read through the whole thread; but I fully believed this theory (except I doubted that Elenya was the imposter and thought it was probably another girl) until I read this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Union_Square_Signing1

That's pretty decisive to me.