Heresy 12

[Werthead]

Something interesting to bear in mind is that GRRM has filled in the TV producers on many things they need to know in planning the series as a whole and its conclusion. This must include much more information about the White Walkers/Others than we have seen so far. It is possible that they have already worked some elements of this knowledge into the series.

Most notably, the suggestion that the Others/White Walkers have been 'asleep' for thousands of years and have only recently woken up ('recently' could well encompass a 50-year-period, when discussing periods of 8,000 years, although I don't believe it's been anywhere near that long, but that's a 'heresy' for another time :) ) is much more strongly emphasised in the series than in the books. In fact, I don't recall the idea being floated in the novels at all. Whilst there's certainly nothing stopping the producers from having changed GRRM's conception for the TV series (or merely streamlining/simplifying it), this may be a clue that the Others have indeed not been fully active for the whole time since the Long Night.

In particular, I wonder if there is a comparison to the Shadows in Babylon 5, where the overwhelming bulk of the race spent centuries in suspended animation but a few guardian-Shadows were left awake and occasionally took part in the affairs of the other races. The same thing being done with the Others could explain a lot (including the Night King's wife, if necessary): most of the Others went to sleep under the ice and a few isolated Others remained awake/active, maybe replenishing their ranks through Craster-style deals with the wildlings, to keep an eye on events. Due to some trigger event - which could have been anything from the Doom of Valyria to the death of the last Targaryen dragon to the fire at Summerhall to the impending return of the comet - the guardian-Others then began waking up their fellows, feeling the time was now ripe to conquer the lands beyond the Wall (if not all of Westeros) completely.

There could also be another comparison with the Shadows, where the viewer saw them slaughtering members of lesser races and thought they were out to obliterate everything but it later turned out they had another agenda (fermenting chaos amongst lesser races to see who would emerge on top, making them stronger through adversity). So far there have been lots of assumptions about the Others, but little hard facts. In particular, if the Others are planning an invasion of Westeros itself or are even really the major antagonists of the series, it seems odd we still know almost nothing about them after five very long books (and only two to come, apparently). I do wonder if they are actually a subplot or sideline rather than the Big Bad everyone is assuming.

[PSHorton]

I like most of your hypothesis, but I believe Crow suggested earlier that the others live in another realm and at certain times it's easier to come through. So I like the idea that of few Others were on "guard duty," but that they were just waiting for reinforcements essentially

[Black Crow]

Professor Crow’s updated dissertation on the Others part the second.

According to Old Nan, the Others “were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Now there’s no doubt that they are cold, but look again at GRRM’s description: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

They are not dead, but different, so lets explore the Sidhe comparison a little further. A good starting place is the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD which tells how they are said to live underground in the fairy mounds or hollow hills, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans. There are obvious parallels here with the Children/Singers who certainly live underground, but its possible there may be a difference between their network of caves and the hollow hills – which may include both the Fist of the First Men and the Barrows.

And here’s the Reverend Robert Kirk of Aberfoyle writing in 1691:

These Siths or Fairies they call Sleagh Maith or the Good People...are said to be of middle nature between Man and Angel, as were Daemons thought to be of old; of intelligent fluidous Spirits, and light changeable bodies (lyke those called Astral) somewhat of the nature of a condensed cloud, and best seen in twilight. These bodies be so pliable through the sublety of Spirits that agitate them, that they can make them appear or disappear at pleasure

The disappearing business is reminiscent of both Maester Luwin’s (and later Asha’s) comments on how the Wood Dancers could seemingly melt into the woods, not to mention those condensed clouds, which were also discussed by the artist Tommy Patterson and which can be seen in John Macacio’s calendar painting – also much approved of by GRRM.

Physical descriptions, aside exploration of the folklore surrounding the Sidhe throws up a number of other interesting comparisons.

One of the most controversial questions on this forum used to be the fate of Craster’s sons, seemingly sacrificed to the Cold Gods, until Sam asks the older women who “they” are: “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

It amounts to a pretty unequivocal statement that Craster gives up his sons to the Others and that they themselves then return as White Walkers, yet for years it was argued and is by some still argued in the very strongest terms that Craster’s wives are silly old women who don’t and can’t know what they’re talking about. Craster was simply tossing his sons out to die so that they wouldn’t grow up to be a threat (!) to him. The question has however been dramatically answered in the TV version, where Jon witnesses one of Craster’s sons being collected, so why shouldn’t the second part be true too?

And that’s where we come to changelings.

The taking and sometimes the exchange of human children is a very important part of Sidhe/Faerie lore. Craster “paying his tithe to Hell” is a very familiar theme and so too is their return. More striking still is the tale of Bael the Bard as told by Ygritte in CoK Jon 6:

The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand… singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happened winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished… and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign of Bael or this maid. For most of a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast… They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle… Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is – you have Bael’s blood in you.

I’ve retold the story more or less in its entirety because while acknowledging at the outset that Ygritte identifies Bael as a Wildling and later King Beyond the Wall, this is an absolutely classic retelling of a changeling story – and so too are some of the parallels between the story of the Nights King on the one hand and Tam Lin and the Queen of Elfland on the other, Not exact parallels to be sure, but close enough, and so leading into another heresy.

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

[Lummel]

Something interesting to bear in mind is that GRRM has filled in the TV producers on many things they need to know in planning the series as a whole and its conclusion. This must include much more information about the White Walkers/Others than we have seen so far. It is possible that they have already worked some elements of this knowledge into the series.

Most notably, the suggestion that the Others/White Walkers have been 'asleep' for thousands of years and have only recently woken up ('recently' could well encompass a 50-year-period, when discussing periods of 8,000 years, although I don't believe it's been anywhere near that long, but that's a 'heresy' for another time :) ) is much more strongly emphasised in the series than in the books. ... it seems odd we still know almost nothing about them after five very long books (and only two to come, apparently). I do wonder if they are actually a subplot or sideline rather than the Big Bad everyone is assuming.

Neither of those ideas would qualify as being heretical on this thread :)

[Jojen]

Do we know how many seasons there have been since Summerhall, and how long they lasted compared to those before?

[Werthead]

I like most of your hypothesis, but I believe Crow suggested earlier that the others live in another realm and at certain times it's easier to come through. So I like the idea that of few Others were on "guard duty," but that they were just waiting for reinforcements essentially

Interesting. The Others being from another realm - presumably one of infinite cold and winter - and that realm's proximity to Martinworld determining the length of the winter could be another spin on the idea.

However, other dimensions/realms may qualify as the 'mechanical magical overload' stuff that GRRM loathes in fantasy and which won't play a role in ASoIaF.

[Black Crow]

True, but on the other hand the Sidhe are very firmly rooted in folklore. They are in that sense "real" and therefore neither an invention nor a flashy bit of deus ex machina.

[Ser Leftwich]

"The Other’s sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow…"

Is the Other in this scene experiencing pain, "screeching", when the blade it is carrying gets touched by the flame? Or is that a sound of the blade and the flame "screeching" against one another?

[Black Crow]

I'd say its got to be the blade, the Other/Sidhe wasn't in contact with the flame, but either way its an interesting reaction

[Eyron]

The Others swords made a high shrill sound when clashing against Ser Waymars steel sword too. Thought I should just add that :)

[Jojen]

I'd been thinking of something along the lines of string theory-like dimensions, where the veil that Bran looks through into the heart of winter possibly being a sort of wormhole--one which opens only when the red comet appears in the sky.

Or maybe, just like the Hubble Telescope can "see" into the past, maybe what Bran sees is the real history of the Others, the Wall, and Everything.

[Orrin Storm]

Sorry I'm new to the Heresies. I doubt this has been brought up though since the Sidhe/Other connection seems to be a recent one.

Either way, here it goes:

I have more points to make, but this just struck me, plus I want to work them out more before I post them.

Leanan Sidhe - a Sidhe that takes a human lover. They offer insperation in exchange for love and devotion. They're similar to a muse, however, they eventually cause madness in their lovers. They are short lived and often cause their lovers to be short lived as well.

Sound familiar? Thinking the Lady Other the Night King married? So was I.

Assuming Night's Watchmen couldn't be married to begin with I'd say that the ranger saw her one day and fell in love with her. She inspired him to greatness, and so he took her as a wife. The longer they were together however he began to suffer the "madness" proclaiming himself Night's King. In the end we know he dies for this, and can assume the Lady Other.

But I thought of someone else first when I read about the Leanan Sidhe, I thought of Lyanna Stark.

A muse that offers insperation to an artist in return for devotion and love. This increases until madness, and then eventually they burn out young.

If the Starks have Sidhe/Other blood in their veins it would seem that Lyanna could have had this effect on Rhaegar. He is an artist. More gifted with song and music than with sword and lance. The first night he would have seen Lyanna would have been the night when he made her tear up with his song.

He was "taken under the spell" so to speak. Next her beauty or her "power" sturred him. He wasn't anything special in combat, good, but not great Barristan backs that up. However, in the tourny Rhaegar beats everyone. He didn't just get a lucky set up. He beat Arthur Dayne, Barristan, etc... "It was almost as if no lance could touch him". Then, what does he do when he wins, but show a woman he hardly knows incredible devotion by passing up his own wife and giving a crown of Winter Roses to Lyanna of all people. Of course the rest is pretty simple. A year later he kidnaps her and less than a year later they're both dead. Having died young.

If the tale of Bael is meant to signify the relationship between the Others/Wildlings/Starks/Sidhe/etc... what having you, then a crown of Winter Roses being given by the embodyment of a family that is Fire to a woman that is the embodyment of Ice should be very significant.

Also the Winter Rose in general seems to be a metaphor for the Sidhe/Stark family trait. From Bael, to Lyanna, and now Jon.

Done.

Anyway, that's what I got for now. Currently working on Sidhe/Stark theory about how the Starks are the children of Night's King and that the Stark name is an Andal creation being the main discord in never finding the family name for Night's King

[Eyron]

I'd say that if the root of the Others are the Sidhe, it doesn't qualify as high magic or deus ex machina according to me. Folklore feels much more low magic to me.

Stories about changelings and the tricksy fairy folk, often evil spirited, and stories about wights such as the draugar, are all very down to earth kind of myths. I mostly know about the nordic folklore, but those are very much about how Nils from the farm in the next village says his brother came back from the dead one night and wanted to fight, or tell him who murdered him, or wanted some kind of vendetta settled. Or just told him how to run the farm in his stead, not very spectacular stuff.

The same goes for stories of changelings, they are low key affairs, as well as the vård, a protective wight that lives under the warden tree in the farm yard, whom you had to take good care of. The stories sound like Old Nan stories (but less scary), passed down from generation to generation. Told by the elder to the younger. It just so happens that these old stories are actually mostly true in Martin world.

Dragons on the other hand... I would say high magic? Immortals and wizards too.

That said, one thing that makes me suspect that the land of the Others is not the same as the Otherworld of the faerie is that it seems to have a geographic location, it's the land of always winter. That is not the same as the Otherworld of the faerie. In this story the Others have a land for themselves and the Wall marks where that land ends supposedly. It may not have been like that always though, maybe the Others were different and lived where there was no ice earlier, and have just adapted to circumstances. Maybe the hills and barrows were their habitat and they were driven north from there.

Have you ever considered the Others as a race that was looking for immortality? They are a "different sort of life" because they should have been dead for hundreds/thousands of years.

Maester Aemon once said: "Fire consumes, but ice preserves.". The Others could have been a normal race until their desire of living forever, just like the COTF Greenseers, but living outside a tree. That's the reason they went all the way north, to the coldest place on Westeros, to preseve their bodies. That's why they take newborn babies, to extract their lives. That's why they collapse at the touch of Obsidian or Fire, because it consumes. But I also theorize that that's was not their prime intention, things got out of control (before the long night, of course).

They are dangerous because they need to kill in order to continue living. This need, however, is their own fault, as I said.

A few of us have been thinking before that the Others are the ghosts of men, who's spirits can't or will not die. They could be Children also, or another race, but I think it would be one we have seen at least. The theory appeals to me since the prolonged seasons (which could have come from this same event) and the Others would be self-inflicted from earlier generations. Men were greedy and lusted for immortality, and all this crap came from that... I like the sound of it. If this is correct, they can not be considered dead, since they are undead, or immortal, but they are not really alive either and can not be said to have a culture. The undead and the immortals don't really have a culture I'd say.

In this theory they did magic (some variety of blood and ice magic) to become immortal (like Mel and Moqorro) and they can exist only where there is ice to draw from. That would be similar to how Mel seems to need fire, she says the fires in her chamber must burn at all times, and the candles must not go out. What happens if they do is not told, but I can imagine it has something to do with her own life.

So when i woke this morning, an idea came to me...

Since the Sidhe are not actually dead, but not alive in a sense that we would think of it, could they be the origin of the Ironborn's "what is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"?

We know that the wights are more agile, and probably stronger, versions of their living selves---definitely pointing to the rises again, harder and stronger, so this could simply be the origin of it.

But what if the Sidhe themselves of the origin? The Sidhe themselves could be a spiritual version of the Children, who have "died" and "risen" again ...

I think that the saying of the Ironborn is thematically connected to the idea of a immortal people. It could be that they at some point saw the dead rise again, and indeed they were harder and stronger, but that was when wights roamed the land (maybe even before the First men Ironmen came to the Iron Islands) at the time of the long night. Maybe they took that idea and made it into their own which later included the ironborns traditional way to go, by drowning. I think it's interesting that they Ironborn and the Red lot are the only ones that seem to celebrate the idea of an extended life openly. The Ironborn could however be influenced by the Red lot, since the drowned god came from the sea (from the west), with a sword and flame. Sounds familiar?

On the other hand, it could say something about the Old way, as the Ironborn and the First men call it. If the saying comes from a time before the Ironborn were separated from the other First men. The ironborn do seem to be very 'original' in their ways, and that could reflect how the First men used to be.

I think that death by whatever element you praise is an important theme, and the burial traditions are most interesting from this perspective. Look at the Targaryens, they burn their dead and seem to be quite ok with burning their enemies to death. For some religious (or practical for all we know) reason they must be burnt. They are connected to the fire element by dragons.

The Ironborn drowns or are buried at sea (sleep in the watery halls of the drowned god).

The Children of the Forest and the First Men keep the bones of their dead at their homes, beneath the earth and beneath the weirwoods. They have wargs and greenseers and are connected to the Children and the weirwoods and the Old gods from that.

There seems to be no tradition that celebrates death by cold, but there was a tradition of burial in mounds in the north. Maybe the ones buried in those were not merely bones and in that way was given to the cold. But, there is Craster and his giving away his sons to the Cold Gods, the Others. The sons were left out in the cold, and the Cold Gods collected them. Maybe this was a much more common practice before, i.e. the old way of the north.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

I like this Sidhe theory very much and it gave me some ideas about parallels between Starks and Targs.

Keepers of the pact:

Starks are the keepers of pact between men and the "Ice Sidhe".

Targs are the keepers of a similar pact with "Fire Sidhe".

(R'hllor would be a religion based on a degenerated vision of the "Fire Sidhe").

House magic:

Targs: Fire and Blood.

Starks: Ice and blood (last vison Bran has, Ygritte rage against the wall, Jojen paste....)

Geography:

Starks - Ice Sidhe: Westeros inicially and then the north. The gateway to their realm is at The Heart of Winter.

Targs - Fire Sidhe: Essos, The gateway would be under the 14 fires of Valyria.

This part would explain why the dragons dwindled after being born in Westeros, all the failed attempts and why they hatch once a Targ tries the same thing in Essos.

The WW started to stir themselves after Aegon I landed in Westeros.

[Orrin Storm]

I like this Sidhe theory very much and it gave me some ideas about parallels between Starks and Targs.

Keepers of the pact:

Starks are the keepers of pact between men and the "Ice Sidhe".

Targs are the keepers of a similar pact with "Fire Sidhe".

(R'hllor would be a religion based on a degenerated vision of the "Fire Sidhe").

House magic:

Targs: Fire and Blood.

Starks: Ice and blood (last vison Bran has, Ygritte rage against the wall, Jojen paste....)

Geography:

Starks - Ice Sidhe: Westeros inicially and then the north. The gateway to their realm is at The Heart of Winter.

Targs - Fire Sidhe: Essos, The gateway would be under the 14 fires of Valyria.

This part would explain why the dragons dwindled after being born in Westeros, all the failed attempts and why they hatch once a Targ tries the same thing in Essos.

The WW started to stir themselves after Aegon I landed in Westeros.

I'm of the same idea.

How about Reeds for earth Sidhe, or Children?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Maybe the original Stark was actually a changeling/some sort of Sidhe-human thing that, as part of a peace pact with the Sidhe, was imposed upon the men of the north, hence why "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell." And since the Starks are no longer at Winterfell...

[Plainplucket]

Indeed they do; its what debate is about and all we ask on this thread cycle is that arguments are supported with commonsense and text and conducted with good humour.

I'd also throw out a general point here in that many new or newish posters begin apologetically by saying "I don't know if this has been discussed before..." or worse still are intimidated from posting because they think it might have been.

Its quite possible it has, but with so many new posters coming on to the board and this thread cycle its valid to raise it again and means that you might get a good answer, or better still offer a completely fresh insight...

And you are so right about this. I liked the posts of Free Northman, too. But then he made it abundantly clear, that he held everyone posting here to be stupid for not seing the truth, he thinks he sees.

This is one thing about the Heresy threads: There are a lot of people posting here who have of completely different ideas about what is really going on. But we usually leave each other be. People here present their ideas and comment on them and even try to prick holes into them, to if they sink. But there usualy are no exchanges like this: "I'm right" - "No, I'm right, and you are just to stupid to see it.

Thank you :) Maybe this forum is a lot more accepting than I had initially thought - and I've been following you for several weeks. ;)

Uncat, I've noticed the wide trend of these threads. Even though I disagree with many of the posts on them, I think this feature attracts me to them. They're like a creative back-and-forth that tends to inspire creativity in others. (Whilst the author does or does not verify any of these ideas, I am pretty sure that the author approves of the debate. :D)

Thank you, I won't be so afraid to post here.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

I'm of the same idea.

How about Reeds for earth Sidhe, or Children?

I have expressed myself poorly.

I think better names would be "Winter Sidhe" and "Summer Sidhe", it even has the advantage to match the unbalanced seasons.

[Black Crow]

Leanan Sidhe - a Sidhe that takes a human lover. They offer insperation in exchange for love and devotion. They're similar to a muse, however, they eventually cause madness in their lovers. They are short lived and often cause their lovers to be short lived as well.

Sound familiar? Thinking the Lady Other the Night King married? So was I.

Assuming Night's Watchmen couldn't be married to begin with I'd say that the ranger saw her one day and fell in love with her. She inspired him to greatness, and so he took her as a wife. The longer they were together however he began to suffer the "madness" proclaiming himself Night's King. In the end we know he dies for this, and can assume the Lady Other.

But I thought of someone else first when I read about the Leanan Sidhe, I thought of Lyanna Stark.

A muse that offers insperation to an artist in return for devotion and love. This increases until madness, and then eventually they burn out young.

If the Starks have Sidhe/Other blood in their veins it would seem that Lyanna could have had this effect on Rhaegar. He is an artist. More gifted with song and music than with sword and lance. The first night he would have seen Lyanna would have been the night when he made her tear up with his song.

He was "taken under the spell" so to speak. Next her beauty or her "power" sturred him. He wasn't anything special in combat, good, but not great Barristan backs that up. However, in the tourny Rhaegar beats everyone. He didn't just get a lucky set up. He beat Arthur Dayne, Barristan, etc... "It was almost as if no lance could touch him". Then, what does he do when he wins, but show a woman he hardly knows incredible devotion by passing up his own wife and giving a crown of Winter Roses to Lyanna of all people. Of course the rest is pretty simple. A year later he kidnaps her and less than a year later they're both dead. Having died young.

If the tale of Bael is meant to signify the relationship between the Others/Wildlings/Starks/Sidhe/etc... what having you, then a crown of Winter Roses being given by the embodyment of a family that is Fire to a woman that is the embodyment of Ice should be very significant.

Also the Winter Rose in general seems to be a metaphor for the Sidhe/Stark family trait. From Bael, to Lyanna, and now Jon.

:agree:

A possible Lyanna/Leanan connection has been mentioned before as another textual clue, for the reasons you've given, but to continue another conversation that's no reason to be shy about it because its always comforting when other people come to the same conclusion independently and you've also developed it here in far more depth than before

[Black Crow]

I have expressed myself poorly.

I think better names would be "Winter Sidhe" and "Summer Sidhe", it even has the advantage to match the unbalanced seasons.

We have indeed been equating the Others/Sidhe with the Sidhe of the Winter Court and the Red Lot with the Summer Court. As you say, it seems to work. :cool4: