Learning to lead? A re-read project of the Dany and Jon ADWD chapters

[brashcandy]

Jumping a bit ahead here, but Jon's role was to be a commander and thus, perhaps he didn't like looking like he needed protection? The organisation he's leading is martial in nature and thus requires him to be firm, strong an severe.

Hmmm, I'm not sure... I don't tend to think of the NW as being very martial though. It seems to be a personal dislike of Jon's, since protection comes with the territory for anyone in high command.

[Faint]

Alright, I'll join in.

My primary interest in this chapter, in retrospect, is how it will come to influence Jon's storyline in the next book -- specifically, his relationship with Melisandre. I allude, of course, to this exchange:

“The Wall is no place for a woman.”

“You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. “This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?”

“I know their names.”

“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

“It is always cold on the Wall.”

“You think so?”

“I know so, my lady.”

“Then you know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered.

Will Jon now trust Melisandre since she has proved so spectacularly right? Of course, there might soon be even more reason for Jon to trust her if she has a hand in his resurrection or continued survival.

And bringing this back around to Daenerys, is there a kind of a parallel forming here between her and Jon, with one being jerked around by Quaithe and her mysterious little sayings and Moqorro on the way, the other with Melisandre trying to guide his every move?

And what are we to make of the fact the fact that both Jon and Daenerys are starting to get entangled with these new forces (i.e., red priests, mysterious women from Asshai, shadowbinders, etc.)?

Are these parts of their stories related, or going somewhere similar?

[brashcandy]

It's interesting to me how Jon starts out in this chapter basically proclaiming the wall to be a very masculine enclave, with even his distaste for protection being compared to feeling like a mother duck trailed by ducklings, but later on we're going to see him trusting Melisandre a little more, sheltering Alys Karstark and throwing a wedding :) At least we know he can adapt quickly.

[Teal'c]

Dear admins-

Since this looks like a long project, could we please get this topic pinned?

@ Lummel - nice thread

[Scipio Africanus]

God, that's tragic. Jon gets a list, which even missing mentors like Ned and Donal Noye looks impressive, Dany gets one person with a question mark. I prefer Jon, and going into this I think he is the better leader, but I do feel sorry for Dany.

Not entirely true, Vysaris, Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy were mentors too. She learned a lot from Vysaris, much too much in my opinion. Only at the very end of ADWD does she learn the truth how warfare, rulership and how one has to earn the throne.

She basically did a poor job of everything she did and up to the end of ADWD she showed no humility or even signs she was learning something. Jon actually did do the right things and made great personal progress as a leader but he was rewarded by getting stabbed.

Bothers me a bit that. But oh well even the greats like Philip II of Macedon and Gaius Julius Caesar got stabbed for their efforts.

[Lummel]

I appreciate that Scipio Africanus, those other characters as mentor figures is certainly something to look out for when we get that far - but please, lets not get too judgemental before we have even started on Dany's chapters :)

[Yeade]

Kudos to Lummel and everyone else who intends to attempt this re-read! Personally, I think the project too ambitious for me as I barely made it through Jon's chapters (plus Melisandre's) alone in search of a conspiracy against him led by Bowen Marsh. I'm not sure my attention span can take reviewing the Meereen POVs in such detail. Of course, another problem is that I don't actually own a copy of ADWD. :laugh:

At any rate, a few general observations:

In addition to benefiting from a string of good to excellent mentors* on the finer points of duty and honor, leadership, diplomacy, and the military arts, Jon has a psychological edge over Dany because he's certain of his identity, even comfortable with his bastard status, and filled with conviction about the rightness of his actions in preparing for the Others. Though he's torn between his obligations to the NW and blood ties to the Starks, Winterfell, and the North, Jon's comparative lack of options in the Wall's defense may be more help than hindrance. It's easier to be decisive when there's pretty much only one feasible set of solutions to your ice zombie apocalypse troubles in the long view.

Dany, in contrast, is presented a perhaps overwhelming number of workable means by her counselors to achieve her immediate ends of quelling dissension in Meereen and meeting the threat of war with Yunkai, Volantis, etc. as well as her ultimate goal of heading to Westeros to reclaim the Iron Throne. Her understandable lack of dragonlore and resulting inability to control Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion lead to a crisis of confidence in herself, however. I think Dany already knows the gist of what Barristan can tell her about Aerys. She doesn't want to hear it and has difficulty taking severe measures like killing her child hostages because, IMO, she's paralyzed by her fear that she's as mad, cruel, and wantonly destructive as her father was, as her children have become.

* Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormont, Aemon Targaryen, Donal Noye, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon

On the topic of Jon, Dany, and magic, I feel Jon has a much more practical outlook than Dany. Both have seen and experienced enough magic that they can't just dismiss it, but Jon tends to treat Melisandre's visions with varying degrees of skepticism based on how accurate her previously given mystical advice proves. He's willing to turn to her when she predicts the Weeper killing his men and the Pink Letter's arrival. He doesn't trust her after Alys Karstark's revealed to be the girl fleeing to the Wall, not Arya as Melisandre claims.

Maybe Dany's hatching of the dragons and acid trip in the House of the Undying make the difference? Jon doesn't really have a magical interlude of comparable magnitude, though this is sure likely to change after the events of ADWD. Even so, my speculation's that Jon will be in contact with Bran and Bloodraven while warging in Ghost. The impact of magic, how impressive and mysterious it seems, is no doubt lessened when you personally know the practitioners as your little brother, feared dead, that jerk of a skinchanger two villages over, or the lady in red who keeps subtly hitting on you, lol.

Finally, if anyone's interested, my own very limited ADWD re-read: Jon I-V, Jon VI-VIII, Melisandre, Jon IX-X, Jon XI-XII, Jon XIII. Again, my focus is on developing conspiracy theories for the Wall, lol, but I'd be happy to discuss points I noted in the other thread here in this one as it progresses.

[Teal'c]

How ironic that Jon is the one more comfortable in his skin, when he does not yet truly know who he is! But I agree that he is more at ease with his own identity than Dany. Let's not forget Tyrion as one of Jon's mentors; Tyrion is the one who taught him to embrace what he is and wear it like armor.

Adding: Oops I see Tyrion now on the list. Tiny font!

[Blisscraft]

I didn't mean to be glib when I noted that both Dany and Jon are their own worst enemies. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." resounds as loudly to me as "I am just a young girl and know nothing. . ."

This lack of confidence is part of the enemy within; mostly, because with self doubt comes a need to trust. Sometimes that trust is misguided or misplaced upon mentors that seem to measure up, but in fact do not.

I will try to explain further when I have more time. But I think it is significant that Jon and Dany lack a real father and look for father figures as well as lack mothers and look for mother figures. Fathers have been noted, as for mothers, a mother for Jon is most likely Mel and for Dany it is the Green Grace. A symbol for the lost mother for Dany is also the "red door."

Sorry, I'm rambling, but the symbols resonant for me more than the "real."

[Teal'c]

The difference being that Jon didn't know he didn't have a father.

[Lummel]

Not entirely true, Vysaris, Jorah Mormont and Barristan Selmy were mentors too. She learned a lot from Vysaris, much too much in my opinion...

...In addition to benefiting from a string of good to excellent mentors* on the finer points of duty and honor, leadership, diplomacy, and the military arts, Jon has a psychological edge over Dany because he's certain of his identity, even comfortable with his bastard status, and filled with conviction about the rightness of his actions in preparing for the Others. Though he's torn between his obligations to the NW and blood ties to the Starks, Winterfell, and the North, Jon's comparative lack of options in the Wall's defense may be more help than hindrance. It's easier to be decisive when there's pretty much only one feasible set of solutions to your ice zombie apocalypse troubles in the long view.

Dany, in contrast, is presented a perhaps overwhelming number of workable means by her counselors to achieve her immediate ends of quelling dissension in Meereen and meeting the threat of war with Yunkai, Volantis, etc. as well as her ultimate goal of heading to Westeros to reclaim the Iron Throne. Her understandable lack of dragonlore and resulting inability to control Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion lead to a crisis of confidence in herself, however. I think Dany already knows the gist of what Barristan can tell her about Aerys. She doesn't want to hear it and has difficulty taking severe measures like killing her child hostages because, IMO, she's paralyzed by her fear that she's as mad, cruel, and wantonly destructive as her father was, as her children have become.

* Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormont, Aemon Targaryen, Donal Noye, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon...

There's a difference between role models in general and leadership role models, but this is something still ahead of us. Certainly the scope of the challenges before them that they are left with at the end of ASOS is very different.

I didn't mean to be glib when I noted that both Dany and Jon are their own worst enemies. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." resounds as loudly to me as "I am just a young girl and know nothing. . ."

This lack of confidence is part of the enemy within; mostly, because with self doubt comes a need to trust. Sometimes that trust is misguided or misplaced upon mentors that seem to measure up, but in fact do not.

I will try to explain further when I have more time. But I think it is significant that Jon and Dany lack a real father and look for father figures as well as lack mothers and look for mother figures. Fathers have been noted, as for mothers, a mother for Jon is most likely Mel and for Dany it is the Green Grace. A symbol for the lost mother for Dany is also the "red door."

Sorry, I'm rambling, but the symbols resonant for me more than the "real."

No, I think this is all worth while and I look forward to seeing more as we progress through the chapters.

[Lyanna Stark]

Another thing that comes out rather strong in this Jon chapter, apart from the direct indication that he has good mentors is that Jon also has a lot of knowledge and information about his situation. We see more of this in later chapter, but it comes out in his conversation with Stannis that Jon knows the location, he knows the social structures of his surroundings (the North) and he knows the history of the place (The North, the Wall).

Dany on the other hand is a foreigner, she has no connection to Meereen, she only has a shallow understanding of its history and its social structures, making her task of wrestling it into shape so much more daunting. Jon on the other hand is educating Stannis here, who is far from a stupid or ignorant man, in how things are done down town, i.e. in the North. Stannis is not happy about it, but does in the end (sort of) accept that Jon knows better. This I think is a great strength in Jon's leadership and where he has a huge advantage over Dany.

Combined with what Lummel mentioned above of him knowing and being familiar with his identity, it provides him with a small platform of strength and security which he can rely on. I also think this security is what enables him to disregard the trappings of power, like the guards trailing him and properly statuesque living quarters.

Dany on the other hand does not feel comfortable disregarding the stupid Meereneese dress and the floppy ears. Although it could be argued this is also a strength of hers since one of the reasons for Jon's eventual downfall and some of the reasons people are not treating him with the respect he wants is that he ignores the trappings of power.

[Yeade]

Interesting thoughts, Blisscraft. Though I hope you don't mind that I disagree. ^_^

While Jon, in particular, has many fatherly mentor figures, I don't think either he or Dany are looking for surrogate parents so much as they long for the abstract concepts of home and family generally associated with having a father and mother. In a way, Jon and Dany are trying to become their idealized representations of the father (Ned) and mother (of her dragons, of her freedmen), IMO. Question is, why? Do they subconsciously feel a sense of belonging can be found by creating a family unit of their own?

This is digressing into a broader discussion of Jon and Dany's characterizations, but I find threads on this topic that don't devolve into arguments about whether their stories are cliched kind of rare, and whatever insights result may be of use to Lummel's project. So, I will blithely continue on as I have, lol.

Seems to me there are unresolved issues between Jon, Robb, and Catelyn, on the one hand, Jon and Ned, on the other. Ultimately, I believe the denouement of the former lies in Robb's will, possibly supported by Lady Stoneheart, if it indeed names Jon King in the North. Only the revelation of R+L=J and Ned's motives for acting as he does in regards to Jon can exorcize the ghosts of the latter while, ironically, leaving Jon with a number of different ones.

Despite Jon and Robb's closeness as brothers, because they're competitive boys and Stark men raised to honorable duty, I think Jon holds a certain amount of jealous resentment towards Robb for his assured place as heir to Winterfell compared to Jon's perceived lack of a future when he's no less talented than Robb. My impression of Robb, in turn, is that he's never been comfortable with his mother's treatment of Jon, the idea that Jon's worth is diminished by his birth, even if he and Jon have a tacit agreement to not speak of it. Robb's guilt and helplessness to improve this situation may, incidentally, be a contributing factor in his marrying Jeyne. While Jon's haunted by the persistent fear that a part of him is glad Robb's gone, that he somehow wishes his brother dead, because his desire for Winterfell remains.

Ned, I'm not sure is as openly affectionate with Jon as he probably wants to be out of respect for the awkward position he's put Catelyn in. I've speculated in the R+L=J thread that Ned's encouragement of his children seeing Jon as a brother and him providing Jon with an education equal to Robb's in most areas, lessons in lordship a bastard without an inheritance wouldn't be expected to need included, is an attempt to acknowledge that the quite likely trueborn son of his sister and the former crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms shouldn't be set beneath his cousins. Jon's taught a lot of skills he has few prospects of using and takes as a role model a father he knows cares for him (else why bring him to Winterfell?) but who doesn't really express it, whose honor seems unquestionable yet is thrown into doubt by his very existence.

By the end of the series, I think these character arcs of Jon's will also be finished. However, as my theory's that Jon will be the last Targaryen and sit the Iron Throne in a exile of sorts from his northern roots, he could find that he has no place in the world because the one that might've fit him died with Rhaegar, a man forever beyond his reach.

I admit I haven't given as much thought to Dany because Jon's my favorite, lol, but the popular speculation about Aegriff being a Blackfyre pretender, if true, strikes me as a development that can strip Dany's need for family to the bone. She proves susceptible to Illyrio and Varys's mummery, IMO. Then has her dearest hopes devastated in a second Dance of the Dragons that irretrievably ruins her aspirations for the Iron Throne in the eyes of her southern subjects, as well. Jon presents another chance, the last, for Dany to forge an unbreakable bond with her blood, but I feel he disappoints her, too, in her treason for love. What's more, Dany's future interactions with both Aegriff and Jon are sure to be complicated by her romantic longing for a man whose relationship with her can match hers with the Drogo of her memory. These two are different from her many other suitors because, to repeat, they're family.

Regardless of her earlier pre-ADWD adventures in Essos, Dany's always kept her identity as a Targaryen as an emotional touchstone. Associated with this is a rather quixotic dream of halcyon days in Westeros once she's won back her father's throne that can, IMO, again create in her the feelings of welcome and security she experienced in the house with the red door in Braavos, lemon tree outside the window.

Besides her crisis of confidence in the fitness of her basic nature, I wonder if Dany's disinterest in learning of Meereenese culture as she does when among the Dothraki stems in part from her reluctance to exchange the traits that make her a Targaryen in her mind for the trappings of foreign ways. I vaguely recall that at times in ADWD Dany behaves almost as if she doesn't expect to return to Westeros. Not only does this piss off readers who've been anticipating just that for more than a decade, lol, but Dany becomes as a ship lost at sea without what's been her guiding hope.

There's a difference between role models in general and leadership role models...

I don't entirely agree. Though I'd consider the technical aspects of military command, the formalities and courtesies of court politics subjects to a degree separate from the fostering of character I assume generic role models are supposed to promote, personality is in fact an extremely important factor in leadership, IMO. There's not one person on my list of Jon's mentors whose lessons I think are applicable to other areas of life but not leadership. If nothing else, qualities like empathy, crucial to understanding people's motivations, and courage under fire are desirable overall as well as hallmarks of good leadership.

Furthermore, in analyzing Jon and Dany's leadership in ADWD, it seems their strengths and weaknesses alike tend to come about from their characters. They both have the requisite knowledge to make the decisions that face them--Jon through his education plus familiarity with the North and wildlings, Dany through the wide variety of information and advice offered to her from every corner. They choose courses of action based on how they parse what they know of their circumstances through the lenses of their personalities and experiences.

To toss a final two cents onto this pile of coinage I've accumulated, lol, cases can be made for Jon, Dany, and Tyrion as all suffering from depression in ADWD. I've argued in another thread that Jon's had a passive death wish since the end of ASOS, Dany's drowning in her ennui, and Tyrion has his poisonous mushrooms. Of the three, Jon has the highest functionality, IMO. Probably because he's the most practiced at denying his emotions when calculating what to do and, well, melancholy is pretty much the norm for him. :laugh:

[brashcandy]

Dany on the other hand does not feel comfortable disregarding the stupid Meereneese dress and the floppy ears. Although it could be argued this is also a strength of hers since one of the reasons for Jon's eventual downfall and some of the reasons people are not treating him with the respect he wants is that he ignores the trappings of power.

Great point about the clothing, Lyanna. Jon actually compares getting more comfortable with leadership to one gradually getting used to new clothes in the chapter:

It's like putting on new clothes, Sam had told him. The fit feels strange at first, but once you've worn them for a while you get to feeling comfortable.

As a part of this Northern society, Jon can integrate much better and be a lot more comfortable than Dany will ever be in Meereen with its restrictive dress and foreign customs.

[Fire Eater]

@ brashcandy

Can you a Rapsie do a re-read of Jon's chapters in ADwD like you did with Sansa's?

[butterbumps!]

@ brashcandy

Can you a Rapsie do a re-read of Jon's chapters in ADwD like you did with Sansa's?

I think Dr. Pepper, Lummel and I are rotating through the Jon, Dany and a couple of the corollary secondary chapters here for "main" entries. Dany 1 should be posted fairly soon from Dr. Pepper. :) Though I second your desire to see more fantastic close-readings from Brashcandy on the subject.

[Blisscraft]

I talked to my husband who once was an officer in the army about what makes a good leader.

"A good leader knows that 'I need them more than they need me.'"

[Blisscraft]

Jon choses to set himself apart. Just like in the dream he has at the opening of the chapter. "Snow."The moon murmurs, then calls, then insists. The white wolf is apart, silent, and cannot howl at the moon like its pack. This is something familiar to Jon. To be apart, different, a bastard. In a family but not of it.

Donal tried to help Jon understand that he must join the group. (It is interesting that Donal's chambers are the ones he choses over more fancy accommodations). Donal encourages Jon to work together with the other recruits in the NW. By the time we get to ADWD, Jon is LC by the choice of his group, yet still not of his group. He is still apart.

Stannis is so much like Jon in this regard. Neither one was trained from birth to lead (Jon, a bastard; Stannis a second son) and yet leadership is thrust upon them. Neither one wants to join in, to have that pint with the men, to back slap and cheer the others. Also, both see themselves as chosen. Stannis by right of birth. Jon by the NW. However, neither one seems too happy about it. Both seem to have a certain reluctance toward their leadership status. Both seem ambivalent.

As for the quote above, I brought it to the thread because I'm not sure I understand what makes a good leader. Perhaps you can help me out. Robert was considered a great leader. He was charismatic and could win even his fiercest rivals over to his side. Ned was a great leader for completely different reasons. He was quiet, thoughtful, intelligent and honorable. (He reminds me of Robert E. Lee) He was a gentleman who inspired others to loyalty. Whereas Robert inspired loyalty with strength, speed, and great fellowship.

Jon is falling back on his separateness, even in his dreams. He needs to be Mormont's Raven "thrall". He needs to wake up.

[Lummel]

so a bit more shakespeare then? "Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them".

With regard to your quote Blisscraft, a leader is nothing without followers and the best that a leader can be depends on their relationship with those followers. The most brillant genius is not going to be able to achieve things of brillance and genius if they can't lead others to fulfill their vision, so leading is all about the interaction with the followers - in that way Jon's isolation flashes up as a potential danger signal.

Ok he has a certain amount of institutional power because the nights watch is an organisation and the role of lord commander is institutionalised but Jon fills awkward in the role, it is loose about him, he is conscious of his youth, and the shouts of "boy!" shows us that others think he's a bit of a joke too.

He also, coming into ADWD, has a certain amount of prestige for being a Stark, having being in contact with some senior figures with solid reputations in the watch like Mormont and the Halfhand and of course for his part in holding the wall. But of course he is also a bastard, a beastling, a traitor and the man who killed the halfhand.

If the Wall needs reconstructing, the watch needs reconstructing but his relationship with his command and his leadership need to be constructed from the ground up. And we have to ask ourselves if the isolation and his austere manner are the best leadership styles to adopt in the circumstances? Does Jon understand how dependant he is on people following him or his he too focused on himself?

[Blisscraft]

I almost quoted The Bard, but refrained. I'm glad you did.

Also, after reading you post. Jon has "walls" around himself. Hopefully, Jon's walls are not as high or wide as The Wall.