Blackwater Roars

[ServantOnIce]

Unlike much of those season, I had few complaints about this episode. It was still not a mirror of the book, but it mostly stuck to the spirit of the Blackwater chapter in "A Clash...". My biggest complaint is that the ommission of the giant chain Tyrion had built -- used to trap Stannis's fleet within the burning Blackwater Rush -- diminished the brilliance of Tyrion's steategy in defending Kings Landing. Also, the omission of Tyrion's wildling mountain clans in the Kingswood, killing Stannis' advance scouts and thus allowing the combined Lannister/Tyrell forces to route Stannis' forces from the rear. Tywin may have been hailed as the 'savior' of Kings Landing, but it wouldn't have been possible within Tyrion's brilliant defense of the city. Oh, and Tyrion's nose seemed to still be very much part of his face at the end of the scene.

Please tell me this is sarcasm?? :bang:

[Indigocell]

I think anyone who is unhappy with this episode has proven they will never be happy with anything HBO has to offer with this series. You should stop watching from now on, it'll only hurt you.

[Aemon Stark]

I think it's helpful that I first read the books years ago, so I have quite a bit of separation from the initial admittedly visceral experience (I read each of Clash and Storm inside a week). I've been slowly re-reading Clash recently and at this point it's pretty easy to understand that books and TV series are too distinct texts. The interesting part is seeing how themes and characters are realized on screen. I don't agree with everything, but beyond enjoying the show for itself, it is the nature of the adaptation that's interesting, since all that works in print does not work on film and vice-versa.

[ServantOnIce]

The feedback on this episode at work today has been fantastic!! Folks are worried about Tyrion and wondering why Ser Moore tried to kill him . . . it was great!! Folks are hype and sad that the season is ending.

After the TRIUMPH that is "Blackwater" the season finale will have a lot to live up to.

[TheDarkOne]

I liked the wild fire, CGI, The Queens performance (exceptional!!!!), Tyrion, Bron, the Hound, it just keeps going. It was like every actor in the series took the stage to out gleam the performance before them.

Perhaps it will be fleshed out this week, but the whole Renly thing was such a great part of the book and here handled in such a sloppy way. I don't care who showed up in his armour, but it was not conveyed in anyway to let the casual viewer (the ones we need to keep the show going) know what was going on. I spent about half an hour after the episode explaining things to the non book readers at our watching party.

The chain and the other stuff wasn't a big deal to me, but I don't understand the omission. How much does a chain cost? It would have been nice to see Tyrion working on it all season and the non readers being perplexed by what he was doing.

It makes me wonder what is in store for this week. S2E9 felt like a season finale, can this week be better?

[Abaddon]

The chain and the other stuff wasn't a big deal to me, but I don't understand the omission. How much does a chain cost?

Wrong question. "How much does CGI of tens of ships crashed against a chain burning with Wildfire with a bunch of men on them as they slowly sink burning into the water cost?".

Or: "What is the point of showing a chain and then not showing it being used?".

The Renly's armor thing was more a nod to the book fans (which I personally appreciate) than an important plot point for non-readers. Explaining a bunch of extraneous stuff to them probably causes more confusion than anything.

I do have concerns for next week. There are so many plot points and locations to wrap (including King's Landing). Some of them being major events. Even with it being the longest episode of the season and longest episode in general since S1E1 I have worries it is going to feel really rushed. S1E10 didn't have half the stuff crammed into it that S2E10 will. We'll see.

[Arkash]

Wrong question. "How much does CGI of tens of ships crashed against a chain burning with Wildfire with a bunch of men on them as they slowly sink burning into the water cost?".

Bingo... or, as Hans Landa would said: "That's a Bingo !"... anyway, I was about to answer to this too, but you beat me... =D

[Mediumjon Umber]

I do have concerns for next week. There are so many plot points and locations to wrap (including King's Landing). Some of them being major events. Even with it being the longest episode of the season and longest episode in general since S1E1 I have worries it is going to feel really rushed. S1E10 didn't have half the stuff crammed into it that S2E10 will. We'll see.

As far as I see it, most of the plot points are ready to be wrapped up and presented with a cliffhanger.

The fist of the first men really needs just a few shots before the horn sounds three times (Sam already has what he'll be needing in the beginning of the next season). The same can almost be said about Jon. Halfhand has already told him what's expected of him. Robb and Catelyn don't need much screen time (unless Talysa wants to share more of her childhood -.-). I'm not sure what's going to happen with Brienne and Jaime. I can't see if they're attacked by northerners, some random bandits or if those are the Bloody Mummers (here's to hoping...). Arya really just has to run into Hgar once more. And Bran and company just needs a final moment with the Maester.

I'm guessing most of the screen time will go to post battle KL, House of the undying and Theon.

If as much as 30 minutes goes to the minor plot points, we still have 40 minutes for the three major events in the episode, and on TV, 40 min is a pretty big number.

[Abaddon]

You forgot Stannis & Melisandre as well as Davos (although they might just skip him completely). Honestly, just reading your post it sounds rushed to me :frown5:.

Also, the episode is (supposedly) officially 64 minutes. You can write off at least 2-4 of those for the intro/credits. Much closer to 60 minutes than 70. Still more time than we've had all season, but they have a lot of content to cover.

[Mediumjon Umber]

Yeah, that's true, but a lot of content means it won't be another episode 7 or 8. No offence to anyone who liked those episodes, I just think they didn't offer much in character and plot progression. Maybe 'Valar Morghulis' will be rushed, maybe not. I have total confidence in the competent writers :)

As for Stannis and his heretics, I hope we've seen the last of them. Stannis was amazing in Blackwater, but he needs to give some screen time to his co-actors. I don't know what Melisandre could offer to the episode other than "I told you so", when Stannis returns. As for Davos, let him soak a year so his return next spring will be more of a shock to the audience.

[TheDarkOne]

Wrong question. "How much does CGI of tens of ships crashed against a chain burning with Wildfire with a bunch of men on them as they slowly sink burning into the water cost?".

Or: "What is the point of showing a chain and then not showing it being used?"

In all fairness, that excessive of a sequence wouldn't be necessary to establish the chain's purpose or enhance Tyrion's character. With very little imagination and a few establishing shots we would have been fine. There are a lot of other things going on that we don't necessarily see in the most expensive way they could be filmed either.

As fans it's going to hurt not to see everything. The source material is arguably the best American, if not world wide, fantasy that has ever been written. We can certainly agree or disagree over what makes the cut and what doesn't, but it feels like HBO is using "cost" a little to much as a reason for omissions.

[Abaddon]

In all fairness, that excessive of a sequence wouldn't be necessary to establish the chain's purpose or enhance Tyrion's character. With very little imagination and a few establishing shots we would have been fine.

Making a big deal out of a chain you then don't even show is just a terrible idea. Much better to trim the scope and then blow what you are doing out of the water... which is exactly what they did.

We can certainly agree or disagree over what makes the cut and what doesn't, but it feels like HBO is using "cost" a little to much as a reason for omissions.

Ah, you mean the same HBO that approved a 15% budget increase solely so we could get the battle that we did get? No, that actually gains them more credibility, not less.

[BlackTalon]

I am what many people here consider a book purist and seriously the omission of the chain is one of the things that bothers me least. Or not at all, to be more precise.

What matters is that the viewers are shown that Tyrion saved the day with a brilliant idea, the precise nature of that idea just doesn´t matter.

Frankly I like the show version better, that chain was always a chancy business. It would have taken just one fleeting thought of a commander along the lines of "hmmm I don´t like the looks of that chain boom, let´s take one of our old wormeaten old hulks and scuttle it right on top of it, just in case" and all would have been over.

[VladofWallachia]

OK... The absence of the chain...

The reason is that King's Landing in real life is Dubrovnik, a wonderful city in Croatia which is next to a SEA. A chain would have made sense if the city was situated near the bank of a river (aka the Blackwater Rush, which leads to Blackwater Bay). So the absence of the chain was due to the choice of location, rather than the innability or unwillingness to CGI or build one.

Anyway, they pulled it off better than I expected. There were some parts which didn't convince me (most of all Stannis leading the troops himself. They basically transfigured Stannis into Robert, his fiesty bro), but setting all of those aside, EPICsode! The wildfire exceeded my wildest expectations...

[Arya The Assassin]

This funeral company has performed an informal study of body counts in popular TV shows (nice way of promoting your company, BTW):

http://www.funeralwise.com/tv-body-count-study-results

Spartacus: Vengeance tops the list with an average of 25 kills per episode, while GoT comes second with 14 kills on average. However, those numbers were tallied before Blackwater, and after that episode the average for GoT would increase at least tenfold :)

[mcb]

Oh dear, no chain. No chain!

Big deal. Instead of a chain, Tyrion "invented" a fire ship. I really don't see how that's a change for the worse. Could someone please enlighten me?

I actually liked most of the changes from the books, Tyrion's character included. Tyrion who defended King's Landing in the books, was a veritable Marty Stu. Way too good a strategist for someone with his lack of experience. Portraying him as a dude who's in over his head and knows it, who for example desperately looks for inspiration in history books, is simply better storytelling.

[Kaldaur]

Oh dear, no chain. No chain!

Big deal. Instead of a chain, Tyrion "invented" a fire ship. I really don't see how that's a change for the worse. Could someone please enlighten me?

I actually liked most of the changes from the books, Tyrion's character included. Tyrion who defended King's Landing in the books, was a veritable Marty Stu. Way too good a strategist for someone with his lack of experience. Portraying him as a dude who's in over his head and knows it, who for example desperately looks for inspiration in history books, is simply better storytelling.

But that's exactly what he did in the books. He was an avid reader, of histories both genealogical and military. He knew the land and knew how Stannis would attack.

Not griping about the chain; didn't miss it, he proved himself in the TV show as he did in the books. But Tyrion is a warrior of the mind; he tells Jon Snow as much in the first chapters of GoT. He wouldn't have any trouble coming up with a strategy like that.

[mcb]

But that's exactly what he did in the books. He was an avid reader, of histories both genealogical and military. He knew the land and knew how Stannis would attack.

In the book he had way more confidence in himself.

[Baitac]

Just a reminder that this is the thread for NEWS. If you'd like to discuss what you liked and didn't like about the episode, please go to the episode discussion thread. Thanks! :)

[evening gale]

The actress who plays Cersei is brilliant. I replayed her last scene in Blackwater at least 4 times. I loved the right profile shot of her sitting on the throne, hand clutching her little boy's shoulder. Her smile and the lines on her face lent such sympathy to a character I normally love to hate. It was a beautiful portrayal of a mother reassuring her son in what she thought would be the final moments of their lives. I found myself saying a little prayer for her to prevail. Superb. I cannot wait for tonight