(Book Spoilers) GRRM's S3 Episode "Autumn Storms"

[winksiemop]

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"Autumn Storms," I think refers to the storm that is raging as Balon dies, the Queenscrown stuff occurs, Arya/Hound crossing the flooded river by ferry, Robb/Catelyn et al. on their way to the Twins, etc..

These events are in chapters that directly precede the RW. Catelyn's chapter with the storm (and learning of Balon's death) is her final chapter pre-RW. If this is to be episode seven, then there's nowhere else to go but RW in episode eight.

Like 'The Pointy End,' I see George opting for the build up episode for the season's pivotal event.

So, I see it playing-out thusly: RW in season 3; PW about midway through season 4; followed by Tyrion's trial spread-out over several eps (he demands trial-by-combat and Oberyn steps-up as his champion as the cliffhanger at the end of ep. 7 -- Oberyn/Mountain duel in ep. 8); then the 3rd event listed above in season 4 ep 9.

Now this is where you lose me. There's a hundred pages between RW and PW. How can you justify an entire half a season to get from the former to the latter? After RW, most of the chapters (Arya XI, Tyrion VI, Davos V, Bran IV) are seen from the perspective of people hearing about the RW, so these chapters make for a reflective, somber episode nine. After these chapters, we're given (Tyrion VII, Sansa IV, Tyrion VII, Sansa V), making the timing perfect for purple wedding in episode ten.

This has been said ad infinitum by other members of the site, but PW is the only true climax for the King's Landing arc. D&D have said their goal is to make sure "each season feels like a season," i.e. that they feel like it has a true and natural beginning, middle, and end for each character involved. I think with the placement of 'Autumn Storms' and a very clear idea of what that episode with cover, it's fairly safe to assume that both RW and PW will happen in season three.

[AdiTarg]

I think the events are linked somewhat. The good guy is killed, and the bad guy is killed.

I do see it as ep7 being the RW, and ep10 the purple wedding.

[J_Crews]

The Red Wedding never was intended as and should not be a cliffhanger for the reasons you stated above. The RW and the PW are linked and need to be in the same season (be it the latter half of the third or the beginning of the fourth) also for the reasons you said above. Let's not forget that there will be roughly a year between 3.10 and 4.01 and I doubt many would be happy to wait that long for the "payoff" of Joffrey's death. Which while not enough to make up for the RW while reading, did take some of the sting out of it since it happened basically right afterwards. Having the RW in episode 7/8 and then the PW as the closer with Sansa's escape and Tyrion's arrest would be a better way to do it than making people wait over a year to see Joffrey die.

There's a hundred pages between RW and PW. How can you justify an entire half a season to get from the former to the latter? After RW, most of the chapters (Arya XI, Tyrion VI, Davos V, Bran IV) are seen from the perspective of people hearing about the RW, so these chapters make for a reflective, somber episode nine. After these chapters, we're given (Tyrion VII, Sansa IV, Tyrion VII, Sansa V), making the timing perfect for purple wedding in episode ten.

This has been said ad infinitum by other members of the site, but PW is the only true climax for the King's Landing arc. D&D have said their goal is to make sure "each season feels like a season," i.e. that they feel like it has a true and natural beginning, middle, and end for each character involved. I think with the placement of 'Autumn Storms' and a very clear idea of what that episode with cover, it's fairly safe to assume that both RW and PW will happen in season three.

I think the events are linked somewhat. The good guy is killed, and the bad guy is killed.

I do see it as ep7 being the RW, and ep10 the purple wedding.

I could get behind this timing, I suppose; but then that would pretty much necessitate Tyrion's imprisonment/trial last the entirety of season 4. The timing I described is malleable. My only real point was that there is no way they'll clump all 3 "climax events" into a few episodes late in season 4 (what some are thinking needs to happen, because of them all falling in the latter-half of the book). That would leave season 3 to fall on its face with no suitable climax at all.

[House Snow]

I think they will put them together if for no other reason, it make logistical sense. The more characters that die in a season the easier it is for the showrunners. With the Martells and likely more Greyjoys coming in season 4, even though season three seems like its going to be character overload, they are going to be hardpressed not to kill off as many as they can.

[Flea Bottom]

One other key event in Storm not mentioned here is the "surprise" appearance of Lady Stoneheart. If the RW does happen near the end of season 3, do you follow the books and delay this event until the end of season 4, or does it make more sense to push it up sooner? I'd be worried that a 12 episode separation (RW as ep 8 of season 3 and Stoneheart as ep 10 of season 4) is too much and that these two events need to be relatively close together to work for the TV viewer. Could you make Stoneheart one of the climaxes of season 3, just an episode or two after the RW?

[J_Crews]

One other key event in Storm not mentioned here is the "surprise" appearance of Lady Stoneheart. If the RW does happen near the end of season 3, do you follow the books and delay this event until the end of season 4, or does it make more sense to push it up sooner? I'd be worried that a 12 episode separation (RW as ep 8 of season 3 and Stoneheart as ep 10 of season 4) is too much and that these two events need to be relatively close together to work for the TV viewer. Could you make Stoneheart one of the climaxes of season 3, just an episode or two after the RW?

UnCat's gnarled face being revealed could make for a bangin' ep. 10 cliffhanger.

[winksiemop]

Honestly, I liked to see Beric and Thoros approaching the river and seeing her body at the end of episode ten. Then UnCat could appear in mid-to-late season four as a cliffhanger. UnCat is where I see D+D taking liberties much like they did with Dany this year... I imagine we'll actually get to see a lot of Mother Merciless' exploits.

[Tony Soprano]

I really hope that George writes the Red Wedding episode, but I don't have a lot of hope for that. He said that the Red Wedding was the hardest thing for him to write, I don't think that he's looking forward to doing it again.

And I hope that the Red Wedding isn't in Episode 9 or 10, it needs to be earlier in the season, like in Episode 7 or 8.

Because if the season ends with the Red Wedding, the viewers won't have a lot to be looking forward to in Season 4, everyone they liked on the show would be dead.

The Gold Wedding should be in Episode 5, the Red Wedding in 7 or 8 and the Purple Wedding in the episode after.

[protar]

I sincerely doubt that we'll be getting the PW in S3. There's just not enough material for S4 after that. My projection of events:

Autumn Storms:

• Queenscrown.
  
• Robb and Cat departing from Riverrun.
  
• Arya is kidnapped by the Hound.
  
• Jorah's speech to Dany about Rhaegar and honour.
  
• Sansa and Tyrion's very strained marriage.
  
• Jaime being let out of Harrenhal with Brienne kept behind.
  
• Melisandre and the leeches, followed immediately up with....
  
• Balon's death as the episode ending.
  

Episode 8:

• Jon reaches the Wall.
  
• Arya and the Hound crossing the trident.
  
• Robb naming Jon his heir.
  
• Theon torture scene.
  
• The bear and the maiden not so fair.
  
• Something at KL.
  
• Coldhands rescuing Sam and Gilly as the episode climax.
  

Episode 9:

• Bran worrying about Summer's injury, almost at the Wall.
  
• Dany promising the Slavers a dragon.
  
• KL stuff. Oberyn's arrival?
  
• Jon and the NW preparing for the wildling raid, watching Mole's Town burn.
  
• And of course, the RW!!!
  

Episode 10:

• Arya's wolf dream of Nymeria fishing Cat out the river, then her with the Hound.
  
• The news of the RW at KL and the reveal that Tywin orchestrated it.
  
• The news reaches Dragonstone. We get a plot hook for Edric Storm next season.
  
• Bran meeting Sam at the Night Fort and crossing beneath The Wall.
  
• Theon's attempted escape from the Dreadfort.
  
• Catching up with Jaime and Brienne on the road.
  
• Fight at the Wall and Ygritte dying in Jon Snow's arms.
  
• Dracarys for season finale!
  

Completely satisfying, with no need to rush the PW, which imo should open S4 with a bang. Dracarys ends the season on an uplifting note.

[Caro99]

I highly doubt we'll get the RW and the PW in a single season simply because it would seem Soo rushed in 10 episodes(isnt sansa's wedding inbetween?)

sansa's wedding is before the RW, so maybe they'll put it in the first half of the third season? :dunno:

[J_Crews]

I'll add my vote to both of the two immediately above this post.

[victim]

protar has made me look forward to Season Three before Two has even ended. If I had one problem with that list of episode contents it's Dracarys being the very last thing we see. The moment is epic but not Season Finale epic.

[J_Crews]

protar has made me look forward to Season Three before Two has even ended. If I had one problem with that list of episode contents it's Dracarys being the very last thing we see. The moment is epic but not Season Finale epic.

Have to respectfully disagree there.

[Nuttz]

I don't think we'll see the Battle for the wall in season 3 either. There's plenty of stuff for Jon before that, and I imagine D&D will want to extend his time with the wildlings to better show their culture. Not to mention Mance, Ygritte and Tormund will like be favourites. I think Jon's story will end with him escaping the wildings or maybe getting to Castle Black and beginning to prepare.

[winksiemop]

Dracarys ends the season on an uplifting note.

As a "book purist," do you really want to artificially inflate three of Dany's chapters over ten episodes? It's chapter 28 of 82. You're basically asking the producers to do exactly what they did with her arc this season all over again. If they rush through her material too fast so be it. Her ASoS arc is far superior to her ADwD arc, so why not ask them to alter that material instead of this material?

People are more concerned with "not rushing" through the material and stretching the entire book over two seasons, than they are with fidelity. AGoT was 800 pages and it fit into ten episodes PERFECTLY. ASoS is only 300 pages longer and people are calling for it to cover the entire 20 episodes? You just might get it, but at the expense of gaining a bucket load of new material that will have you crying foul.

I think if you stayed true to the material, given that some chapters have already leaked into season two, you'll find PW is probably where'd you'd naturally end the season. Given we usually see five-seven chapters covered per episode, seeing the season end on chapter 62 is not far fetched at all.

[Shrimpslayer]

(Contains ASOS spoilers)

I think that both Red and Purple Wedding will appear in the next season. Both events serve as perfect climaxes, and I think the argument is right that the audience needs Joeffrey's death as some kind of payoff. Furthermore, the episode title "Autumn Storms" really fits an episode where as well Robb's people as Arya/Sandor try to find their way across overflooded rivers (by autumn weather) to get to the Twins. This would probably mean that the Red Wedding would happen in episode 8, and this leaves enough time for the Purple Wedding. An alternative pay-off might only be possible if they show the epilogue of ASOS as the final scene of season 3, as if it would happen before Joeffreys death and the rest of the book.

However, one thing bugs me: I know that there have been interviews where the producers said that they want to split ASOS into two seasons, but by the end of this season they will probably have told the events of the first 100 pages or so from ASOS (Jamie and Brienne, Fist of the First Men, Jeyne Westerling a.k.a. Talisa). This does not leave enough to tell for two seasons, in my opinion, even with "filler storys". Maybe they changed their minds?

Since I haven't read AFFC and ADWD yet (I have only heard that they play at the same time, but at different locations), I don't know if they have an early cliffhanger which would suit as a cliffhanger to season 4.

[protar]

As a "book purist," do you really want to artificially inflate three of Dany's chapters over ten episodes? It's chapter 28 of 82. You're basically asking the producers to do exactly what they did with her arc this season all over again. If they rush through her material too fast so be it. Her ASoS arc is far superior to her ADwD arc, so why not ask them to alter that material instead of this material?

People are more concerned with "not rushing" through the material and stretching the entire book over two seasons, than they are with fidelity. AGoT was 800 pages and it fit into ten episodes PERFECTLY. ASoS is only 300 pages longer and people are calling for it to cover the entire 20 episodes? You just might get it, but at the expense of gaining a bucket load of new material that will have you crying foul.

I think if you stayed true to the material, given that some chapters have already leaked into season two, you'll find PW is probably where'd you'd naturally end the season. Given we usually see five-seven chapters covered per episode, seeing the season end on chapter 62 is not far fetched at all.

Well while I am a book purist I agree with changes for good reasons and so long as the actual content of Dany's arc remains close to her book arc I'm not bothered if the time-line is a bit malleable.

D+D have said that S3 will take up roughly half of SOS, meaning logically S4 will take up the next rough half. That's the pacing we're getting so any theories on the future progression of the show should be based on it right? Using this model it seems to me that including the PW in S3 would leave not enough material for S4 without causing serious pacing problems. So imo the PW will be moved to S4. But I don't think that S3 can end on such a depressing note as the RW so we need an uplifting ending. Dracarys is the only option I can see without the PW.

We also need to take Dany's own story into account. Firstly, Dany obtaining an army is the logical end of an arc. Secondly It's incredibly likely that Yunkai will be removed and we'll just get Astapor and Meereen, meaning that as soon as she gets the Unsullied she starts her conquest of Meereen. However with no Yunkai to break up this arc into logical sections that means one of two things in my view if Dracarys were to be the mid-season climax . The first is that Dany conquers Meereen by the end of S3, which of course completely messes up the timelines for the rest of the series as that's the point at which her arc ties in with other arcs. The second possibility is that S3 leaves Dany in the middle of her conquest of Meereen which doesn't work as a satisfying conclusion. So imo Dracarys is the only logical conclusion for her season 3 arc as well as S3 as a whole.

Also, if we look at the content of Dany's 3 chapters in Astapor, there's actually plenty of stuff there, especially if her meeting Barristan is moved into S3, and if Daario is introduced in S3 as well. So it wouldn't imo feel stretched out or require invented material.

[J_Crews]

We also need to take Dany's own story into account. Firstly, Dany obtaining an army is the logical end of an arc. Secondly It's incredibly likely that Yunkai will be removed and we'll just get Astapor and Meereen, meaning that as soon as she gets the Unsullied she starts her conquest of Meereen. However with no Yunkai to break up this arc into logical sections that means one of two things in my view if Dracarys were to be the mid-season climax . The first is that Dany conquers Meereen by the end of S3, which of course completely messes up the timelines for the rest of the series as that's the point at which her arc ties in with other arcs. The second possibility is that S3 leaves Dany in the middle of her conquest of Meereen which doesn't work as a satisfying conclusion. So imo Dracarys is the only logical conclusion for her season 3 arc as well as S3 as a whole.

This ^^^^^^^^^. Agree completely.

Also, if we look at the content of Dany's 3 chapters in Astapor, there's actually plenty of stuff there, especially if her meeting Barristan is moved into S3, and if Daario is introduced in S3 as well. So it wouldn't imo feel stretched out or require invented material.

The latter being a definite and the former being almost assured as well, so right on.

[PatrickStormborn]

As I've said many, many times, Dracarys is not a season finale moment. It's a great cliffhanger for a mid-season episode. Taking Yunkai and being hailed as "Mother" is a much more fitting close to her story.

[J_Crews]

As I've said many, many times, Dracarys is not a season finale moment. It's a great cliffhanger for a mid-season episode. Taking Yunkai and being hailed as "Mother" is a much more fitting close to her story.

Except I doubt Yunkai will even be in the show at all, unless they just make it identical to Astapor so they can reuse the same exact sets.