Heresy 13

[Black Crow]

I see Marwyn as being "for" magic and dragons, as they are a natural part of the magical world of Westeros. It's the other ArchMaesters that are working to rid the world of magic and in the process throwing things even more out of balance.

We really need to know more about the current generation of maesters and arch maesters to understand their attitude to magic and what they're doing about it.

I stick by the premise that they once practiced natural magic but with the link to the Children broken, that has slowly been suffocated through "the creep of mundaneness and neglect". Even if most archmaesters have now come to reject all magic (and we don't know that), I would expect the problems with the three to be down to that same neglect rather than any malice aforethought more easily accomplished with axes and saws.

Marwyn's problem I suspect is not that he sees the dragons as natural but that they are the obvious manifestation of "real" magic, rather than the much quieter natural magic up north

[Black Crow]

... judging from Martin's middle english philological interest, I would go with the middle english meaning of Fell (upland or hill) rather than modern Fell (past tense of fall)....

From my Tolkien interests, my second thought on the meaning of "Winterfell" was Tolkien's preferred use of the word Fell (evil or deranged in nature). This bit could go a ways to support the Stark/Other bloodline abomination theory. I have a hunch that if there is anything to this particular heretical theory, Martin must begin to flesh it out in the forthcoming D & E Tale, give the reader something more than circumstantial evidence.

There's no reason why both might not be intended, but at a very basic level "Winter Hill" is a proper place name. If it was instead intended to commemorate victory, it would more likely be something like "Winters End" - as in the Night that Ended battle. "Winter Fell (here)" doesn't really work.

[Stark@heart]

I think the name of the castle of the Starks says it all --- Winterfell -- as in- Winter was defeated here plus it fits with how all the other old and major castles/ places are named such as

Storms' End

Riverrun

Eyire

Casterly Rock

King's Landing

Dragonstone

Sunspear

Their names are all linked to a physical description or an event.

[Black Crow]

.<<<<This Sunday was boring... now we've got to take a 42 week break from the series.... most depressing of all is the fact that HBO season 3 is all but assured to be the next installment of anything ASOIAF which we receive, aside from a preview chapter or two >>>>

Alas yes, but with a bit of luck we may get The She-Wolves of Winterfell, and who knows what the previews might reaveal. Remember that Tommy Patterson article with GRRM's description of the Others looking like the Sidhe came out of nowhere and look what fun we've had with that one... :cool4:

[Harland Flint]

I think the name of the castle of the Starks says it all --- Winterfell -- as in- Winter was defeated here plus it fits with how all the other old and major castles/ places are named such as

Storms' End

Riverrun

Eyire

Casterly Rock

King's Landing

Dragonstone

Sunspear

Their names are all linked to a physical description or an event.

By that theory Winterfell could just be Winterhill, no different from Dragonstone and Casterly Rock.

[DragonSpawn]

I always felt Winterfell had some significance as a outpost like Osgiliath was to Gondor... so Winterfell is an outpost to > 'Icecastle' / 'Snowcastle' / 'Nightcastle' / 'Knightcastle' / 'Stormcastle' / 'Storm's-beginning' / 'Snowstorm' / 'Ice-wind Vale' / > (can't decide on a name which captures it's significance best!) ... in the Land of always Winter?

...Although i'm quite intrigued by what a friend suggested over the weekend - that Robb Stark did not go into the trees when he died... but went into the 'Winds of Winter'... (something to do with how / why he died) and is quite keen on reclaiming his body / wife / maybe child? ... and taking bloody vengence on Westeros... Once he became part of the Winter - he also became the true King in the North and took up his seat in TLOAW. This may explain why the Direwolves are really there... dead Stark Kings = Kings of Winter = bad!! :) But if you think about it... the Starks did not rule all the world when they were Kings... just the North (with the exception of during Long Night) ... the long night lasted a generation ... enough time for a child to grow old enough to seek out his father? (i.e. Robbs possible child?) ... this would also create an interesting situation if Robb has named Jon his heir... If Robb is not a physical being anymore - would he support Jon? and upon finding out about his child would he then want a future for his son? rather than coldness and death? Just another angle to ponder...

[Eyron]

I always felt Winterfell had some significance as a outpost like Osgiliath was to Gondor... so Winterfell is an outpost to > 'Icecastle' / 'Snowcastle' / 'Nightcastle' / 'Knightcastle' / 'Stormcastle' / 'Storm's-beginning' / 'Snowstorm' / 'Ice-wind Vale' / > (can't decide on a name which captures it's significance best!) ... in the Land of always Winter?

I have had the same feeling. My theory was that Winterfell is an outpost to the Wall, or specifically the Nightfort.

In my theory (which I don't hold to very strongly ;)) the Wall is a borderdefense to protect from the south, Winterfell a southern outpost and Moat Cailin the next point of defense, and most southern is the Stepstones. If you look at it from the point of view of the Children, all of these could be where they had to fall back.

First the Stepstones, which failed.

Then the Neck, which presumably did not fail against the First men, but we know they took over the North and Moat Cailin at some point, it held against the Andals but still the Andal culture seeped into the north over the years.

And then Winterfell, situated strategically in the middle of the north, as noted without any rivers or lakes nearby (but likely tunnels underneath). I have said before that it is almost unheard of to have a northern capitol in a place like that, in real world. Rivers and open water are the lifelines during winters. It could be where it is because of the hot springs, but even those can't help bring any food in during the long winter, and without sun the greenhouses will not yield any crop. Also consider the Wolfswood, which in the old days surely was full of wolves, in packs such as Nymeria's, and likely it held a large amount of direwolves as well.

Then the Wall, keeping people out of the north, with only the Black gate as a point of entry, that let's NW brothers pass, who I think must have said the oath infront of the weirwoods to be qualified to enter, i.e. be approved of by the Old gods. All the other gates were not there originally so I think they have nothing to do with the original purpose of the Wall.

It's a possibility that does not sound too unlikely to me, but I would not cry if it is completely wrong :D

[Tyryan Lannister]

Agree with that last bit... I always interpretted "Winterfell" to mean 'Land of Winter, near the mountains'... (upland stretch of land and/or hill country) rather than the "Fall of Winter" ... judging from Martin's middle english philological interest, I would go with the middle english meaning of Fell (upland or hill) rather than modern Fell (past tense of fall)....

From my Tolkien interests, my second thought on the meaning of "Winterfell" was Tolkien's preferred use of the word Fell (evil or deranged in nature). This bit could go a ways to support the Stark/Other bloodline abomination theory. I have a hunch that if there is anything to this particular heretical theory, Martin must begin to flesh it out in the forthcoming D & E Tale, give the reader something more than circumstantial evidence.

Also going with the Tolkienology is his love of naming towers/cities Amon [insert here] where Amon in one of the elvish languages is "hill" (think Amon Sul = Weather's Hill which in the Common Tongue is Weathertop). Since we know that Tolkien is a big influence on GRRM using "fell" to mean "hill" or "dwelling" would be, in addition to belonging with the in-world mythology, a nod to Tolkien.

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

Also consider the Wolfswood, which in the old days surely was full of wolves, in packs such as Nymeria's, and likely it held a large amount of direwolves as well.

snip

In considering the Wolfswood, according to the Pact the forests were to be the domain of the CotF. So location wise, Winterfell could be a meeting place on the edge of the two domains, forest and non-forest.

[hotweaselsoup]

I'm inclined to agree. I would say that GRRM is trying to parallel the pre-Renaissance European clergy having stripped away almost all knowledge of Greco-Roman math and science while it was kept alive and well in the geographically close Islamic world.

The reign of Baelor the Blessed (or Befuddled) may have played a part in why the maesters seem to have turned away or dropped their studies of magic. Baelor's father was Aegon Dragonbane, so the dragons were dead before Baelor took the throne; Baelor also seemed to abhor the Targaryen tradition of incestuous marriage - he fought against and never consummated his union with his sister. He was said to have destroyed scholarly works of dragonlore, and I wouldn't be surprised if he decreed that all works dealing with magic or sorcery (or warging or the CotF, etc.) be banned or burned. (I have a pet theory that, while this "holy fire" swept through the Citadel, some intrepid maester squirreled away the most precious tomes and sent them to Castle Black for safekeeping - but that's another thread ;) )

Anyway, Marwyn calls his fellow maesters "sheep" and seems to hint that they have an anti-dragon bent, but I'm wondering if it was perhaps Baelor Targaryen that set the Citadel down this path in the first place. I typically associate the color purple with Targaryens (their purple eyes), so maybe the purple moss strangling the weirwood is a metaphor for Baelor's attempt to strangle learning?

Another interesting side note is that Baelor supposedly wanted to replace ravens with doves. You have to wonder if the Maesters were worried that Baelor might be contemplating dismantling their entire order.

[Ciazio]

I admit I'm intrigued by your theories but... dunno why, I would be very disappointed if they were true :dunno:

Above all, the theory makes perfect sense.

[Eyron]

Also going with the Tolkienology is his love of naming towers/cities Amon [insert here] where Amon in one of the elvish languages is "hill" (think Amon Sul = Weather's Hill which in the Common Tongue is Weathertop). Since we know that Tolkien is a big influence on GRRM using "fell" to mean "hill" or "dwelling" would be, in addition to belonging with the in-world mythology, a nod to Tolkien.

There were also two Fell Winters in middlearth as far as I remember, one when the wolves came over the frozen river Brandywine and terrorized the Shire (IIRC).

[Black Crow]

I think the name of the castle of the Starks says it all --- Winterfell -- as in- Winter was defeated here plus it fits with how all the other old and major castles/ places are named such as

Storms' End

Riverrun

Eyire

Casterly Rock

King's Landing

Dragonstone

Sunspear

Their names are all linked to a physical description or an event.

So Casterley... Rocks? :cool4:

There is obviously a meaning to Winterfell, but reading it as Winter Hill makes far more sense than twisting grammar and everything else to mark it as the place where Winter was defeated - by the Kings of Winter

[Black Crow]

I admit I'm intrigued by your theories but... dunno why, I would be very disappointed if they were true :dunno:

Above all, the theory makes perfect sense.

Which one?

[Uncat]

@ Elaena Targaryen: Could be the maesters have experimented with it. I'm surprised it stands at all considering Oldtown is in the south and the Andals had raid of most of the southern weirwoods. I thought Hightower was an Andal based house too. Could be the maesters have been trying to "break in" to the weirwood through force instead of with greensight (thinking weir-vision haha).

Maybe someone downthread allready came up with this (I'm so behind on my reading) but maybe the tree is the very reason for the Citadel's existance. The wise men gathered and raised it, when news of the Andals rushing into the Vale came south. Maybe they decided to brace themself for what's comming and this tree and the desicion to protect it and that is why Oldtown became their "homebase".

[Francis Buck]

For a while now I've just assumed it had something to do with it being the location of where "winter first fell", and by winter I mean the supernatural ultra-winter that has come to be associated with the Long Night.

[Orrin Storm]

So Casterley... Rocks? :cool4:

There is obviously a meaning to Winterfell, but reading it as Winter Hill makes far more sense than twisting grammar and everything else to mark it as the place where Winter was defeated - by the Kings of Winter

Haha, it was the Casterly's rock! :lol:

What I'm trying to say and the few others that share the idea is Winterfell, regardless of how it gets its name, is probably the location of the new Pact. They have a Weirwood which would have been sitting in the middle of a hill when the Last Hero was treking north. If it was there at all yet. Then you have the natural hot springs and burrow activity in the area which suggests the Children. Lastly you have the Wolfswood, an area the Children would have claimed naturally from the first Pact.

When all of that comes together I think the likely hood that the Last Hero would have found the Children here as high. Also, I just don't think they would build Winterfell in the middle of the north because of some hot springs. It would have been more logical to build it along the coast or near a river like every other large seat in Westeros. Riverrun has the trident, Casterly Rock has Lannisport, King's Landing the Blackwater, etc, etc.... it's easier for travel and the shipping of goods.

[hotweaselsoup]

Maybe someone downthread allready came up with this (I'm so behind on my reading) but maybe the tree is the very reason for the Citadel's existance. The wise men gathered and raised it, when news of the Andals rushing into the Vale came south. Maybe they decided to brace themself for what's comming and this tree and the desicion to protect it and that is why Oldtown became their "homebase".

Yeah, I like the idea that the walls went up to protect the trees, the heart trees, rather than the godswoods being add-ons to the keeps. Maybe that's also the reason for Winterfell's location? It was raised around a sacred tree?

[Black Crow]

Speaking with my surveyor's hat on (one of my various mediocre talents), planting substantial trees inside buildings or groups of buildings is a bad idea for the simple reason that roots and foundations don't mix - and the roots normally win.

Professionally therefore I'd be very much of the opinion that the trees came first and that the walls, whether at Winterfell, the Citadel or anywhere else, were built around them, precisely because they were there.

So far as Winterfell is concerned therefore I'd tend to see it as a weirwood sitting on top of a hollow hill before Bran the Builder came along and planted the family there.

[Ciazio]

Which one?

The whole Heresy theory :cool4:

I'm wondering... where do all the prophecies/legends fit in this theories? What if AA is the Fire-champion (Dany), Stannis the Night's King (I support the theory that wants Stannis to be the next Ice champion) and Jon (Ice/Fire) The Prince that Was Promised, who will balance the forces?

Afterall he is a skinchanger gifted by the CoTF who, according to your theories, want to balance the forces between Ice and Fire.

It would be really bitter/sweet...