Heresy 13

[Gingerly Grumkin]

So the King in the North, in ruled from the Neck to the Wall and everything in between. So what's the deal with the in between? Why are the Boltons breathing?

There are the Boltons who have existed during the age of heroes but finally bent the knee to The Kings in the North (Not winter, though they dabble in 1/2 ass cold magic all the time. ?) They bent the knee about a thousand years ago but continue to fight the Starks every few years, nor have they givin up their dreams of flaying people (Ramsay). In fact they are so evil that most assume the Night King was a Bolton (though it was probably a Stark).

Then there are the Karstarks who

Lord Rickard had spoken truly, Catelyn knew. The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Wintefell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold...

A rebel lord a thousand years ago, the Boltons were rival lords a thousand years ago and continue to be rebel lords to the day.

Then you got the Manderlys who

“I know about the promise,” insisted the girl. “Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!”

So once again it seems like the Starks extinguished a house and replaced it with a puppet gov't (Vichy North).

But this case is actually stranger then the Karstarks because they do not belive in the old gods (is there a weirwood in white harbor?)

[Black Crow]

I think the phrasing is significant.

The Starks were once Kings of Winter.

Latterly they became the Kings in the North - not note you the Kings of the North. What and who they ruled was ruled by the sword and personal oaths, not by right. In that respect they are not so very different from the Kings Beyond the Wall.

It does raise the question as to why they have continued to be Kings for generations. It suggests that they are the Kings for reasons other than the normal feudal ones.

[Ciazio]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out where do the Boltons fit in this Heresy. Do you have any ideas?

Somewhere on this forum (cant' remember where or who said it) I read a very interesting theory about why the Boltons started flaying people: they wanted to be skinchanger like the Starks, they tried to emulate the Kings in the North and not only to fight them.

Dunno if it will be usefull but I strongly think it's true :-)

PS: Winterfell is translated in Italian as Grande Inverno (Great Winter). I don't think that this has a true meaning since the translation is really horrible: in the first Italian book Robb founds the dead direwolf with an unicorn horn in its throat.............. :blushing:

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@BlackCrow So the term 'King' is almost like...a... homophone? You really blow my fucking mind Crow

@Ciazio. And when Robb/Jon died they said the name of their wolf. Almost like Red and Grey Jeyne (the bitches Ramsay names).

But they also leech people, which is more of a Meli thing then an Eddard thing... which mayhaps mean that battle beween R'hllor the red and the Other the blue is as old as the Bolton family

[Black Crow]

The whole Heresy theory :cool4:

I'm wondering... where do all the prophecies/legends fit in this theories? What if AA is the Fire-champion (Dany), Stannis the Night's King (I support the theory that wants Stannis to be the next Ice champion) and Jon (Ice/Fire) The Prince that Was Promised, who will balance the forces?

Afterall he is a skinchanger gifted by the CoTF who, according to your theories, want to balance the forces between Ice and Fire.

It would be really bitter/sweet...

The problem as ever is that we know nothing about the Prince that was Promised other than that he is a prince (probably in the broad historical usage of a ruler rather than a specific rank) and he's been promised for some time. Mel believes he and Azor Ahai are one and the same, but AA is a warrior and the champion of Light (and Fire).

We think then that if they are different then the Prince is not the one who will lead the Red lot to victory but the one who will restore the balance. As the Ice Dragon Jon would appear to be likliest candidate for the prince, and he may become a prince as in ruler by becoming the Nights King - remember that if the propaganda is stripped away, the original Nights King was standing between the realms of men and the realms of the Sidhe. He was indeed balancing the two until his brother overhrew him.

[Ciazio]

remember that if the propaganda is stripped away, the original Nights King was standing between the realms of men and the realms of the Sidhe. He was indeed balancing the two until his brother overhrew him.

@Black Crow

Well, I think I'm losing myself between the timeline and the theory... But I like it very much :wideeyed:

Correct me if I'm wrong: are you saying that the Night's King was the King of Winter who ruled balancing Ice and Fire and that he was overthrown by his "jealous" brother? (who then canceled every proof of his dirty deeds)

According to the legends he was the 13th Lord Commander of the NW... again, are you saying that the NW was the order in charge of maintaining the balance between Ice and Fire? Maybe using the Nightfort tunnel for some baby-swapping?

Do you know that this is... perfectly logical? :devil:

Going further... could we even say that TPTWP/AAR/NK are going to be the same person? Jon? AAR has a fiery sword and blue eyes: a mix between Ice and Fire, like Jon's blood. In a certain way, becoming the balancer between Ice and Fire will make him the hero that saves the world => AAR/TPTWP

Remember that Mel sees Jon in the fires every thime she asks to see AAR. Are you really convinced that Jon isn't AAR? And if AAR is the Champion of Fire, is he Stannis? (Seven Hells take me if Mel is right :eek: ) Or Dany?

And who's gonna be the Ice champion? Not the NK - who is going to be the balancer - but Stannis if Dany is AAR?

Moreover... Do you think that Merwyn is actually going to kill Dany's dragons in order to balance the deal between I/F? This might be true if the maesters are the remnants of the Wise Men dedicated in maintain the balance.

Old gods what a headache......... It would be really really funny and useful to recap all the Heresy's dogmas and deductions in one single place... maybe a blog?

@Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin: could you please explain? I'm not able to catch the dogs and leeches thing.... :blushing:

[salemkittykat]

Just to bring up something from a couple of pages ago relating to the Starks and their warging abilities: Leanna and Brandon are referred to on a couple of occasions as being excellent riders, so good they were like "centaurs". I think suggests at the least that the Starks have an inherent affinity with animals, perhaps magnified in the case of the current generation as the direwolves are their sigil and are also more "of the north" than the usual animals you'd find around a castle.

The thought also brings to mind the discussion a couple of threads ago regarding Lady Dustin (originally a Ryswell), the Ryswell's horse sigil and her infatuation with Brandon Stark. There was also some discussion about Lady Dustin's possible connections (in a literary rather than political sense I think) with the Nights Watch. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Ryswell.PNG

The sigil looks (for want of a better way of putting it) very dragony for a horse - there was talk in the last thread about the Watch being something to do with the red lot?

Another point was a lot of the old Northern houses being closely associated to animals (and giants). There are hints (rumours / folklore) in the text of warging (or interbreeding with bears and giants) around at least the Mormonts and Umbers, so would these rumours suggest a closer affinity in terms of warging of the Northern houses with the creatures taken for their sigils or is the point simply to show that this was a widespread ability in the past? South of the Wall this would then have been reduced until recently to such things as good horsemanship which can easily be explained by other means, or folk tales of bestiality :drunk: (which could easily be dismissed by the rationalists of Westeros as legends, or even propaganda from rival houses).

Do the Starks have any Ryswell blood? I would think it's safe to make the assumption that all the Northern houses have interbred at one point or another? Brandon and Leanna's horsemanship as a recessive Ryswell gene or as some possible connection with Lady Dustin and her masterplan, whatever it may be?

Not sure what I make of this and I'm not particularly trying to advance any theory but thought I'd chip in with a few things that jumped out at me concerning the stuff that's already been dealt with. Apologies for the fact that the conversation has already moved on, and apologies too for the lack of referencing, I don't have the books to hand.

(First post... been lurking for months! :drunk: )

[Elaena Targaryen]

I like the idea that some may have built castle's around weirwoods / godswoods, the godswood at Winterfell is supposedly two thousand years older than the castle. Now what could be the reasons for this? To be close to their gods, to protect their gods / weirwoods, or even possibly for communication, it could be a combination of needs and reasons. I can see communication, even with talking ravens, being apart of this. The Ned would spend the whole night in the godswood for prayer and I'm sure most would who worship the old gods. They confess their sins and the actual weirwood is the "priest" for weddings, all of this can be a type of "reporting" in important matters and to ask forgiveness and blessings.

Now I'm really excited because I have ideas for something that has been bothering me for sometime now! This is very simple and obvious so I'm sure others have thought about it before and must not have found it appealing. Anyway here's my new crackpot...

There are no old weirwoods / godswoods at the Wall, from what we have seen. Castle Black does not have one and why have they not made one? You would think the Nightfort of all the castles on the Wall would have a weirwood / godswood but there is not, just the Black Gate. ( mmm, Castle Black - Black Gate, I've never noticed that before, how unobservant of me ) Ok so what if the reason they do not have godswoods / weirwoods is because the Night's Watch did not want open communication with the "enemy", or even the Night's Watch did not want to be "watched"? You can not allow a spy inside right? This also explains the Black Gate and why the gateway can respond, it's tucked away where it can not see or listen unless the NW wants to communicate ( NW "hey we are delivering a sacrifice" gate "bring it at the hour of the wolf" ) and the gate is something special as would be needed.

Now I have something for "the watcher on the walls" that may work or may be crackpot. If the NW predates the Wall and it took thousands of years for the Wall to be raised to current length and height then if the NW had more than one castle operating while building the Wall they would have manned the walls of the castles. The Night's Watch might have thought they needed to watch the "watchers". So who were they concerned about, the children or are the Others somehow connected to weirwoods also?

I remember a discussion somewhere in the first half of the Heresy threads where some wondered if the Others only killed those who did not swear their vows in front of a weirwood or let live / let leave those who did swear their vows before a weirwood. I don't exactly remember the findings but I think it might have been possible. Could this explain why in the final episode of the show the Other looked right at Sam and left him be?

[Eyron]

Don't have the time for a long post... Just wanted to say welcome Salem!

[Tyryan Lannister]

I remember a discussion somewhere in the first half of the Heresy threads where some wondered if the Others only killed those who did not swear their vows in front of a weirwood or let live / let leave those who did swear their vows before a weirwood. I don't exactly remember the findings but I think it might have been possible. Could this explain why in the final episode of the show the Other looked right at Sam and left him be?

While I do like the theory and would subscribe to it myself, there is one thing that prevents me from doing so: Sam still does get attacked not only by a wight but by a Sidhe as well (which he accidentally kills). Basically if a satisfactory explanation could be given as to why that Other/Sidhe attacked Sam, I would wholeheartedly agree with the theory that giving your vows in front of a weirwood protects you somehow.

[Ser Leftwich]

I like the idea that some may have built castle's around weirwoods / godswoods, the godswood at Winterfell is supposedly two thousand years older than the castle. Now what could be the reasons for this? To be close to their gods, to protect their gods / weirwoods, or even possibly for communication, it could be a combination of needs and reasons. I can see communication, even with talking ravens, being apart of this. The Ned would spend the whole night in the godswood for prayer and I'm sure most would who worship the old gods. They confess their sins and the actual weirwood is the "priest" for weddings, all of this can be a type of "reporting" in important matters and to ask forgiveness and blessings.

This makes me think of the Pact. Maybe there was/is a lot more to the Pact. Maybe the trading of ravencraft etc to the First Men included protection of the weirwood trees, by building castles around them?

[Elaena Targaryen]

While I do like the theory and would subscribe to it myself, there is one thing that prevents me from doing so: Sam still does get attacked not only by a wight but by a Sidhe as well (which he accidentally kills). Basically if a satisfactory explanation could be given as to why that Other/Sidhe attacked Sam, I would wholeheartedly agree with the theory that giving your vows in front of a weirwood protects you somehow.

Thank you and I'll try to explain my thoughts here, I could very well be wrong of course.

The Other that Sam slayed was not the aggressor and the Other never appeared to even try an attack on Sam. Also I think it's questionable if the Other wanted to attack and kill Sam that Sam would have been able to kill the Other even with obsidian, it's questionable if the Other knew obsidian would be so dangerous to itself though. The only aggresive thing the Other did was to slash the torch Grenn was thrusting out at the Other, then Small Paul charged with an axe. Here is the passage so you can decide your opinion from your own interpretation of the text...

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn

spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a

whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

Small Paul unslung the long-hafted axe strapped across his back. "Why'd you hurt that horse? That was Mawney's horse."

Sam groped for the hilt of his sword, but the scabbard was empty. He had lost it on the Fist, he

remembered too late.

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you bum." He poked at it

with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. it moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing.

When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe.

The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwell Tarly knew

every kind of fear. "Mother have mercy," he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. "Father protect

me, oh oh . . . " His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that.

The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. it slid away from

Paul's axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of

Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, "Oh," as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.

Do it now Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser

Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically,

wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead

feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was

stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out

before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

Then it describes the Other melting

Now when the wight Small Paul came after Sam I wonder if it had more to do with the baby because Monster, Gilly's babe, was supposed to be given to the Others, but who knows.

[Elaena Targaryen]

This makes me think of the Pact. Maybe there was/is a lot more to the Pact. Maybe the trading of ravencraft etc to the First Men included protection of the weirwood trees, by building castles around them?

Have you ever posted your thoughts ( from the Howl at the Moon thread ) on the archmaester's masks and the connections to weirwoods in the Heresy threads? I think now would be a good time with the currect flow of discussions, I thought it was a brilliant idea!

And yes I think there might be a lot more to the Pact also! I like your thoughts here on the subject and they are feasible. I've had other thoughts too but right now I can't remember but maybe I can post them later. :shrug:

[Ser Leftwich]

Along the topic of the archmaesters, this is something I posted over in the Howl at the Moon thread.

The masks of the Archmaesters are likely related to the masks that the greenseers donned of the ancestors via the weirwood trees. At some point a practice of actually wearing a mask made of weirwood for Old God practices, as we have Val with the pin and wilding leader that wears the weirwood mask, Morna White-Mask.

The passing of the mask, rod and ring of the Archmaester is like a passing into a weirwood that greenseers did. The CotF did carve masks... err I mean, faces in the trees.

@ Elaena Thanks for the suggestion, I forgot about that Howl at the Moon post. I miss that thread.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thank you and I'll try to explain my thoughts here, I could very well be wrong of course.

The Other that Sam slayed was not the aggressor and the Other never appeared to even try an attack on Sam. Also I think it's questionable if the Other wanted to attack and kill Sam that Sam would have been able to kill the Other even with obsidian, it's questionable if the Other knew obsidian would be so dangerous to itself though. The only aggresive thing the Other did was to slash the torch Grenn was thrusting out at the Other, then Small Paul charged with an axe. Here is the passage so you can decide your opinion from your own interpretation of the text...

But that was wrong. They weren't alone at all.

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn

spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a

whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

Small Paul unslung the long-hafted axe strapped across his back. "Why'd you hurt that horse? That was Mawney's horse."

Sam groped for the hilt of his sword, but the scabbard was empty. He had lost it on the Fist, he

remembered too late.

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you bum." He poked at it

with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. it moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing.

When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe.

The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwell Tarly knew

every kind of fear. "Mother have mercy," he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. "Father protect

me, oh oh . . . " His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that.

The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. it slid away from

Paul's axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of

Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, "Oh," as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.

Do it now Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser

Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically,

wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead

feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was

stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out

before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

Then it describes the Other melting

Now when the wight Small Paul came after Sam I wonder if it had more to do with the baby because Monster, Gilly's babe, was supposed to be given to the Others, but who knows.

Thanks for that. yes, it seems that the Other did not actually attack Sam... in fact in only attacked in self-defense against Grenn's torch and Small Paul--also notice how the Other apparently doesn't chase after/attack Grenn once the fire is gone? So yes, you have provided the evidence I sought (hopefully :cool4: We'll have to wait for season 3 to know for sure I guess). But it does seem that the Others really only attack when they feel threatened, or at least they don't attack those who are truly associated with the old gods (the Wights on the other hand aren't so particular I think...)

On a side note, we know that there are some places are warded to prevent the Wights from passing through (the Wall, Bloodraven's/the Children's cave network), but does anyone think that they actually don't prevent the Others/Sidhe from passing through, but that they only choose not to?

[Uncat]

Well there are these mysterious lower levels of the crypts, seemingly forbidden but where Bael and the Stark girl went for a year and a day.

As to the comparative prevalance of warging beyond the Wall I'd be inclined to think that's not down to the purity of the First Men bloodline, but to the periodic infusion of Sidhe blood - remember those tales of Wildling women lying with the Others/Sidhe and producing terrible half human children.

To turn it this way round: What would make you King of Winter? It would be more then just the ability to survive Winter, it would involves the ability to reach out to those you rule in way that makes them see you as the ruler specialy during Winter, when all others (not Others ;)) would lay low by their fires eating canned tuna and praying for spring. It would need to involve being able to excert power in every snowy corner of your frozen realm.

The Kings of Winter would need to wield some kind of magic, to become King of Winter. Warging wolfs - the Beast of Winter - would be one of his prominent superpowers. The others? Maybe walking on snow, commanding armies of dead men? Certainly not commanding the weather itself.

Thus, assuming that the power to warg along with a special superbeast to warg into was an important gift of the WW/Sidhe to the Starks does make a lot of sense. Over the millenia this power spread among man while one Stark or the other went astray and while the contact between the WW/Sidhe north of the Wall never really ceased.

Looking for Winter/Summer analogies this could be mirrored by the gift of dragons and the power to Warg them given to a clan of peasants in what became knowen as Valyria. Only that there things got out of hand in some way until the people of Valirya blew up the whole place with the magic they were given (as man tends to do with gift he gets from the gods). But this is really cracking the potts

[Uncat]

I always felt Winterfell had some significance as a outpost like Osgiliath was to Gondor... so Winterfell is an outpost to > 'Icecastle' / 'Snowcastle' / 'Nightcastle' / 'Knightcastle' / 'Stormcastle' / 'Storm's-beginning' / 'Snowstorm' / 'Ice-wind Vale' / > (can't decide on a name which captures it's significance best!) ... in the Land of always Winter?

...Although i'm quite intrigued by what a friend suggested over the weekend - that Robb Stark did not go into the trees when he died... but went into the 'Winds of Winter'... (something to do with how / why he died) and is quite keen on reclaiming his body / wife / maybe child? ... and taking bloody vengence on Westeros... Once he became part of the Winter - he also became the true King in the North and took up his seat in TLOAW. This may explain why the Direwolves are really there... dead Stark Kings = Kings of Winter = bad!! :) But if you think about it... the Starks did not rule all the world when they were Kings... just the North (with the exception of during Long Night) ... the long night lasted a generation ... enough time for a child to grow old enough to seek out his father? (i.e. Robbs possible child?) ... this would also create an interesting situation if Robb has named Jon his heir... If Robb is not a physical being anymore - would he support Jon? and upon finding out about his child would he then want a future for his son? rather than coldness and death? Just another angle to ponder...

Well, to paint your picture, an Ice Castle full of dead and over the top agry Stark Ghost - would really be a sight to make Bran shiwer away and wishing for Summer, wouldn't it? Especially if this vision did not only move through space but also through time, as some assume, giving Bran a glimps of the future - i.e. of his beloved brother Robb as a frightening Ghost Robb ready to drown (or rather freeze) the world in his revenge.

[LordDolorousEdd]

Well here we are again with another refresh for the Heresy thread, now entering upon its 13^th incarnation. For those grown old in the wickedness of heresy it needs no introduction, for those new to it or wary of catching something nasty if they dip a toe into its depths, I’ll explain…

This all seems really interesting i was hoping someone could help me out in finding the first 13 threads because although i have searched i can't seem to find them. I just want to do some back reading before i comment properly.

[Lykos]

@salemkittykat, nice to bring Bran Vras´thread back to mind. I´m sorry my mind is somewhere else at the moment, but just to remind you, a quote of Bran in Storm:

"There are ghosts here," Bran said. Hodor had heard all the stories before, but Jojen might not have.

"Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went

south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they

sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. The

Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed

them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels,

they're called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Years later, when Lord

Ryswell was old and dying, he had himself carried to the Nightfort so he could take the black and stand

beside his son. He'd sent him back to the Wall for honor's sake, but he loved him still, so he came to

share his watch."

ETA: heresy 6, 7, 8. 9, 10, 11, 12. You´ll find a link back to heresy 5 at the first post of every thread and a link back to heresy 4 at the OP of heresy 5 and so on.

[Uncat]

The whole Heresy theory :cool4:

I'm wondering... where do all the prophecies/legends fit in this theories? What if AA is the Fire-champion (Dany), Stannis the Night's King (I support the theory that wants Stannis to be the next Ice champion) and Jon (Ice/Fire) The Prince that Was Promised, who will balance the forces?

Afterall he is a skinchanger gifted by the CoTF who, according to your theories, want to balance the forces between Ice and Fire.

It would be really bitter/sweet...

And that is one of the reasons, which are starting to make me wonder, if the gift of skinchaning really came from the children. Right now I would rather assume it was one of the things that made the King of Winter just that (see the post above in reply to Black Crow, who seems to be on the same track)