Jon and Sansa {Not Shipping}

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't know , I can see them becoming close if they meet again in favorable circumstances (which I don't think will happen).Sansa has grown oout of her childish view of the world and her previous cconvictions and most of all, aftor all their losses and the time the Stark children spent yearning for each other annd their family, I can imagine that their differences wouldn't matter so much anymore.

True, but he still remembers her fondly, something about Lady anf singing to herself, and she thinks she'd like to see him again.They were never close but now that they're separated and have lost the rest of their family it probably doesn't matter as much as the fact that they are siblings .

Well that's what I mean about them learning to appreciate each other more. They will care for each other and the differences they had before won't be as significant but I don't see them being close. Loving a family member isn't the same as being close to one.

They probably wouldn't have been close anyway, but I think they couldn't be because the difference in status mattered to much for Sansa, she saw Jon as a bastard before her brother.Which is why Jon's reason for finding that missing Sansa is odd is the way she considered him.

I don't think she was that cool to him. She wasn't like Catelyn. I believe that they were friendly before but she just made him more aware of his status than his other siblings did so that's why he made the distinction.

"That's pretty."He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name."

"He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all."

I also found that Sansa also made a similar comment about Arya.

"Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister..."

I still think that they weren't close because of the lack of same interests and the lack of understanding.

[Fantôme]

Well that's what I mean about them learning to appreciate each other more. They will care for each other and the differences they had before won't be as significant but I don't see them being close. Loving a family member isn't the same as being close to one.

I can see their ordeals helping them closing the gap between them and allowing them to become close.But even if they meet again I don't think they'll both survive long enough for that anyway,so...

don't think she was that cool to him. She wasn't like Catelyn. I believe that they were friendly before but she just made him more aware of his status than his other siblings did so that's why he made the distinction.

I don't think she was like Catelyn, just that that she made it very clear they didn't have the same status. And I can't see how two siblings can be close when one of them acts this way.

I mean, if that's not condescending...: "Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

[Zezibesh]

And I think that Jon wouldn't be LC anymore, because when a crow dies his brothers say that now his watch has ended.. If he is resurrected he would be released from his vows. I'm not sure about it though.

The Iron Men consider drowning death. So if a priest comes and drowns people and then revives them, are they freed from their vows?

Jon would have to either be really really dead, or become a wight or something to be freed of his vows that way.

[iamthedave]

I don't think she was like Catelyn, just that that she made it very clear they didn't have the same status. And I can't see how two siblings can be close when one of them acts this way.

I mean, if that's not condescending...: "Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

Well... she's right.

They're just very different people. Sansa was mommy's girl, Jon takes a lot after his father. Sansa has - or had at least - very Southern ideals, until she went to King's Landing. The rest of them are very Northern. Sansa seems to be showing a little classic Starkiness over time, though I expect she's going to remain tied to the Riverlands and the mess surrounding the Freys and Tullys.

[nothatso]

The Iron Men consider drowning death. So if a priest comes and drowns people and then revives them, are they freed from their vows?

Jon would have to either be really really dead, or become a wight or something to be freed of his vows that way.

I don't see why not, as silly as it might be, and besides, you have no way of knowing what Jon, the Night's Watch, or the Old Gods consider a proper death or release from those vows. The Iron Men don't actually die anyway. Regardless, Jon is loyal to his duty above all else. Duty before vows, or the watch, or anything else. His duty is to protect the realm, and I have a hard time believing that, if his vows got in the way, he'd still adhere to them. I'm still surprised that people have stuck to the argument that "Jon chose his vows and he won't go back on that choice" even after ADWD. It seemed rather apparent to me when he was advising Stannis on how to gain support in The North, arranging a marriage, imprisoning a noble, ogling Val (to the point of having to remind himself of his vows), making an alliance with wildlings, and setting out to attack Winterfell, that he has, at the very least, a very flexible interpretation of his vows. There are many possibilities that could see him removed from the wall or his vows, but I think it's a mistake to speak of the vows as if they're some sort of physical shackles binding all those who take them. Mance took vows, Jaime took vows, but both of them abandoned their vows to save lives, and I would fully expect Jon to do the same. I simply don't understand why so many people seem to think that leaving the watch automatically equates to abandoning his duty of defending the realm when, at least to me, it seems leaving the watch and claiming a noble title is the best way for him to gather the support he needs.

...but enough of that rant, I suppose this isn't the place for it. :dunce:

While there is a detachment between Jon and Sansa when compared to the relationship they have with other siblings, I think it's in Jon's nature (or was, at least) to greet Sansa warmly. Sansa has clearly grown a lot and would reciprocate. Based on the evidence from the text it seems pretty clear that they'd be overjoyed to see one another, even if not as much so as Jon and Arya would be.

[Fantôme]

Well... she's right.

They're just very different people. Sansa was mommy's girl, Jon takes a lot after his father. Sansa has - or had at least - very Southern ideals, until she went to King's Landing. The rest of them are very Northern. Sansa seems to be showing a little classic Starkiness over time, though I expect she's going to remain tied to the Riverlands and the mess surrounding the Freys and Tullys.

The important thing is not whether she's right or wrong, but the fact that she gives importance to the fact that he's a bastard. Again, I don't think they would necessarily have been close if she hadn't cared but they couldn't be anyway because, unlike for their other siblings who are perfectly aware that Jon is a bastard but don't let it affect their feelings for him, the fact that it altered her opinion and attitude towards him.

[Dolorous Ali]

The Iron Men consider drowning death. So if a priest comes and drowns people and then revives them, are they freed from their vows?

Jon would have to either be really really dead, or become a wight or something to be freed of his vows that way.

The things is NW is not iron islands. But as I've said myself, I'm not sure.

[Fred Stark]

Like all siblings they all have their issues and differences and this is Westeros where there are more things that affect the relationship of siblings like blood status and gender.

If you ask me all the Starks are close to each other.They are not that close when they are together but now being apart they starting to appreciate each other.They all think about each other during sometime and the time they spend apart does make their bond stronger

1)Arya saying that she would ask forgiveness from Sansa and would behave like a proper Lady ,Sansa thinking of having a daughter with dark hair

-Here you see both of them longing for each other despite their diffrences

2)Sansa thinking of Jon in Vale,Jon thinking about the advises Sansa told him and feels Winterfell belongs to her

-Being Alayane ,Sansa finally realise the plight of being a bastard(Marrilion tried to rape her because he felt bastards are horny) and she start to appreciates Jon

[Tini]

The important thing is not whether she's right or wrong, but the fact that she gives importance to the fact that he's a bastard. Again, I don't think they would necessarily have been close if she hadn't cared but they couldn't be anyway because, unlike for their other siblings who are perfectly aware that Jon is a bastard but don't let it affect their feelings for him, the fact that it altered her opinion and attitude towards him.

What importance did she assign to it, though? She knows that Jon is a bastard, a son of her father and some unkown woman. It means that Jon is not part of the succession. It obviously holds importance for the grown-ups around her. But other than that? It's been some time since I read the books, but didn't she ask Catelyn at some point if Arya was a bastard, too? Sansa was still working out the importance, the meaning, of being a bastard. At least she is giving it thought.

Sansa did not seem close to any of her siblings in AGOT, including Jon. Still she loved them, and grieved for them when she heard of their deaths. I think she loves Jon, too. Yes, Jon is a bastard, and her half-brother. Her only surviving brother (as far as she knows).

I think they might feel a lot closer to each other when they meet again, and understand each other a lot better. I think their reunion will go a lot better than the reunion with Arya. I don't think Jon will be happy to find out that his favorite sister has turned assassin.

[Ice Turtle]

I think they might feel a lot closer to each other when they meet again, and understand each other a lot better. I think their reunion will go a lot better than the reunion with Arya. I don't think Jon will be happy to find out that his favorite sister has turned assassin.

Duno, he seems to like dangerous women.

[Fantôme]

What importance did she assign to it, though? She knows that Jon is a bastard, a son of her father and some unkown woman. It means that Jon is not part of the succession. It obviously holds importance for the grown-ups around her. But other than that? It's been some time since I read the books, but didn't she ask Catelyn at some point if Arya was a bastard, too? Sansa was still working out the importance, the meaning, of being a bastard. At least she is giving it thought.

Yes, I think she asked that because she couldn't accept the fact that Arya was so different from the sister she wished she had. I think it does hold importance for her since she corrects Arya when she calls him their brother and uses that fact to judge him.

"He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant." Jon, Games. To me that shows that Sansa's view of his "bastardy" did affect their relationship.

Sansa did not seem close to any of her siblings in AGOT, including Jon. Still she loved them, and grieved for them when she heard of their deaths. I think she loves Jon, too. Yes, Jon is a bastard, and her half-brother. Her only surviving brother (as far as she knows).

I think they might feel a lot closer to each other when they meet again, and understand each other a lot better.

I agree they could if they met again in the right circumstances.For the reasons I already gave.

I think their reunion will go a lot better than the reunion with Arya. I don't think Jon will be happy to find out that his favorite sister has turned assassin.

Maybe but I think Arya is right when she thinks Jon will accept her back no matter what.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think they might feel a lot closer to each other when they meet again, and understand each other a lot better. I think their reunion will go a lot better than the reunion with Arya. I don't think Jon will be happy to find out that his favorite sister has turned assassin.

She thinks that he wouldn't care about who she killed and in ADWD Jon was hoping that she would kill Ramsay with Needle.

"Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair..."

Not to mention Ygritte reminded him of Arya and we all know she's a killer. He liked that Val was a warrior woman who was capable of being dangerous. & he loves Arya more than those two.

One of the times he compared Arya to Ygritte was after Ygritte made no distinction b/w murder and self-defense.

“I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.” “If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never meant anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya."

[willowbark]

I don't think so.. After Jon's rebirth/resurrection, It seems unlikely that he would even have time for Sansa. They're fighting a war against Others, and it'd be the hardest war there is or would ever be. And do you really believe that GRRM kept Sansa alive through 5 books so that she could run to Jon to seek shelter??? Personally, I hate Sansa, but she's gonna do sth big; if not, she should've died in AGoT; no need to read so much nonesense for a long while. And I think that if Sansa someday wants to get away from LF she would do it by winning sth or screwing him up or sth like that, not just running away to Jon. She would win sth from LF, so that he wouldn't be able to control her. Maybe she would even destroy LF. Besides it would be kinda cheesy, as Alys Karstark ran to Jon as well.. If this happens, every maid in Westeros thinks about running to Jon to seek shelter..

And I think that Jon wouldn't be LC anymore, because when a crow dies his brothers say that now his watch has ended.. If he is resurrected he would be released from his vows. I'm not sure about it though.

Has it been considered that there was some kind of trick to the stabbings, so the watch could say that he was "dead", and his watch "ended", so he could try to take back winterfell and not go against the night's watch vows?

[Dolorous Ali]

Has it been considered that there was some kind of trick to the stabbings, so the watch could say that he was "dead", and his watch "ended", so he could try to take back winterfell and not go against the night's watch vows?

I don't think Bowen Marsh did that becasue of a kind of trick to help Jon. I think that it will end up helping Jon, even though Bowen Marsh didn't intend it to. But as this series is fantasy, many things are possible, so I could easily be wrong.

[Ice Turtle]

I don't think Bowen Marsh did that becasue of a kind of trick to help Jon. I think that it will end up helping Jon, even though Bowen Marsh didn't intend it to. But as this series is fantasy, many things are possible, so I could easily be wrong.

Bowen wouldn't but what about Mel?

[Dolorous Ali]

Bowen wouldn't but what about Mel?

Mel would, but for her own purposes, not for helping Jon

[Tini]

She thinks that he wouldn't care about who she killed and in ADWD Jon was hoping that she would kill Ramsay with Needle.

Not to mention Ygritte reminded him of Arya and we all know she's a killer. He liked that Val was a warrior woman who was capable of being dangerous. & he loves Arya more than those two.

One of the times he compared Arya to Ygritte was after Ygritte made no distinction b/w murder and self-defense.

So what?

Thoughts and reality are different things. He may have hoped that she would kill Ramsay who would have done far worse to her. He would have cheered her if she had managed that. He would have been proud of her even. He may have been reminded of her when watching Ygritte.

But I think he will be aghast when he meets Arya the Assassin. Neither Ygritte nor Val were contract killers, they were warriors. He admired them for being strong warriors. I don't think he would have admired them for being assassins. And even if he had, that still doesn't mean he would consider it a suitable occupation for his kid sister, for a Stark.

That might not be what Jon the boy would have thought. Jon the man is an entirely different matter. Growing up changes how you view the world. Given that Catelyn and Ned are dead, he might feel compelled to fill the father role for his little sister. What do you think Ned would think about Arya's choices?

Arya may believe that Jon will have no problem with who she killed. As far as the NW deserter is concerned, she might even be right. But otherwise? I think both Arya and Jon are in for a rude awakening. They may realize that they are no longer the children who left Winterfell at the beginning of AGOT. They have not yet realized that their siblings have changed as well during the years of their separation.

They may forgive each other, eventually, but I don't think they will grow as close again as they were as children.

Come to think of it: It might be quite positive for Arya if Jon is horrified. The more Arya's story progresses, the less I like her. If she doesn't turn from the way she is on, she'll become a monster. Jon's reaction might be enough to turn her from her path. Jon might be the only person who can turn her from her path.

[ARYa_Nym]

So what?

Thoughts and reality are different things. He may have hoped that she would kill Ramsay who would have done far worse to her. He would have cheered her if she had managed that. He would have been proud of her even. He may have been reminded of her when watching Ygritte.

But I think he will be aghast when he meets Arya the Assassin. Neither Ygritte nor Val were contract killers, they were warriors. He admired them for being strong warriors. I don't think he would have admired them for being assassins. And even if he had, that still doesn't mean he would consider it a suitable occupation for his kid sister, for a Stark.

That might not be what Jon the boy would have thought. Jon the man is an entirely different matter. Growing up changes how you view the world. Given that Catelyn and Ned are dead, he might feel compelled to fill the father role for his little sister. What do you think Ned would think about Arya's choices?

Arya may believe that Jon will have no problem with who she killed. As far as the NW deserter is concerned, she might even be right. But otherwise? I think both Arya and Jon are in for a rude awakening. They may realize that they are no longer the children who left Winterfell at the beginning of AGOT. They have not yet realized that their siblings have changed as well during the years of their separation.

They may forgive each other, eventually, but I don't think they will grow as close again as they were as children.

Come to think of it: It might be quite positive for Arya if Jon is horrified. The more Arya's story progresses, the less I like her. If she doesn't turn from the way she is on, she'll become a monster. Jon's reaction might be enough to turn her from her path. Jon might be the only person who can turn her from her path.

From the last paragraph it seems like bias is at work here.

Ygritte murdered an old man right in front of him. She killed him easily so it was clear that wasn't the first time that she had killed a civilian. She participated in wildling raids so scenes like that one are bound to happen. The defenseless man was going to be killed anyway but she didn't see anything wrong with doing it because he was in their way. Jon still loved her and thought about her in ADWD. It was not a dealbreaker for him. If he can love Ygritte who had poor morals and did and advocated bad things I don't see why he can't do it for someone else especially the girl he loves most in the world. Ned and Jon are two different people. Ned may be horrified. I imagine that he also would have been horrified by Ygritte's behavior and her comments.

I get into similar disagreements with people who say that Jon could never love and be close to someone because they've done bad things. I don't get where the idea that he likes moral women comes from. He liked Ygritte. Arya is a grey character but I don't see Ygritte as any more moral than someone like Arya or say Dany. Ygritte just didn't have Dany's power to be destructive but if she had her way she would have raided the Seven Kingdoms since kneelers are the true thieves and she's just coming to take what belongs to them. Raiding involves raping, stealing, and killing. Jon and Ygritte disagreed over this but he knew full well where she stood morally. How Arya is now may be a shock especially since Arya was not raised that way but he will love her all the same. Yes Arya is his sister but Jon was fully aware that Ygritte could have been the mother of his child if she had a bastard. He also thought that it would have been easier to choose to be the Lord of Winterfell if Ygritte had still been alive so she could be his wife. So despite the things she had done he still entertained the idea of her becoming Lady Stark and the mother of the Starks of Winterfell.

I believe that Jon would be the only one who knows about what she does and what she went through. Bran had a vision of her holding her secrets in. Well, Bran may know too if he watches her. I don't believe that she will tell the rest of her family or friends though but if she tells anyone it will be Jon. I'm not sure if he'll know that she's apart of the FM but I can see her telling him that she's killed a lot of people.He gave her Needle hoping that she would use it. When she made her first kill it was Jon's words not Syrio's that went through her head. Now when he was hoping to send her to Braavos in ADWD he probably wasn't hoping for her to go to the FM but still that shouldn't prevent him from loving her. I don't see what they need to forgive each other for.

It's also likely that Jon is supposed to become a more grey character so he may do less moral things himself and become more ruthless in the next two books. The stabbing is going to change him as well. ADWD was all about Jon trying to kill the boy so the man can be born. The boy may be dead RN. Jon the man may be someone different especially if he has to be resurrected. People say that Ghost should keep his mind intact but the prologue said that going inside the animal makes the warg lose their humanity over time. Even if he somehow is not dead and is maybe in a coma like state like Bran was he went through a traumatic experience. IMO, there's no way he's going to be the same. I don't believe that he will turn into a villain or be the new NK although I have to acknowledge that if he is AA it's not yet proven that AA is a good person and since he is the LC he could take up the new NK mantle even though I think Stannis has more in common. Despite all that I believe that he will be more grey.

[Ghost714]

So what?

Thoughts and reality are different things. He may have hoped that she would kill Ramsay who would have done far worse to her. He would have cheered her if she had managed that. He would have been proud of her even. He may have been reminded of her when watching Ygritte.

But I think he will be aghast when he meets Arya the Assassin. Neither Ygritte nor Val were contract killers, they were warriors. He admired them for being strong warriors. I don't think he would have admired them for being assassins. And even if he had, that still doesn't mean he would consider it a suitable occupation for his kid sister, for a Stark.

That might not be what Jon the boy would have thought. Jon the man is an entirely different matter. Growing up changes how you view the world. Given that Catelyn and Ned are dead, he might feel compelled to fill the father role for his little sister. What do you think Ned would think about Arya's choices?

Arya may believe that Jon will have no problem with who she killed. As far as the NW deserter is concerned, she might even be right. But otherwise? I think both Arya and Jon are in for a rude awakening. They may realize that they are no longer the children who left Winterfell at the beginning of AGOT. They have not yet realized that their siblings have changed as well during the years of their separation.

They may forgive each other, eventually, but I don't think they will grow as close again as they were as children.

Come to think of it: It might be quite positive for Arya if Jon is horrified. The more Arya's story progresses, the less I like her. If she doesn't turn from the way she is on, she'll become a monster. Jon's reaction might be enough to turn her from her path. Jon might be the only person who can turn her from her path.

I pretty much completely agree with "ARYa_nym" on this one. I don't think Jon will be horrified by Arya at all, or anything like that. I think Jon will like the fact that his sister will have learned to take care of her self. Especially so after Jon's stabbing, Jon is really going to know how fucked up the world is, and knowing his sister can kill her enemies instead of getting killed, will probably be strangely comforting to him. Then when you consider how bad things will get with the Others and everything, Jon will really respect his sisters new abilities, same goes for getting revenge for their family. Jon is not going to be the same as he was before, and even before it's not like Jon was completely against killing and violence, or anything. Jon and did you Arya both have accepted that things aren't going to be like they were, and that's really going to be the case after Jon's stabbing. So I really do think he is going to respect the fact that his little sister will have the ability to survive and kill, instead of getting killed like the rest of their House.

I also don't think Jon will become a "bad guy", but I to think he will become a more morally grey character after his stabbing. I think Jon is really going to start doing what needs to be done, in order to make shit happen that needs to happen. Just like how Jon knew he had to "bend" his vows to attack Ramsey and save the Wall, I really think he will make more of those decisions in the next books.

No matter what though, there is no way I can see Jon "not loving" Arya, she is still going to be his little sister. Yes in a perfect world, Jon would not have wished that life on Arya, but it's not a perfect world, and after his stabbing, Jon will know that more than ever. So because the world is so bad and only getting worse, I can really see Jon and Arya having a strange connection, in the fact that they have both adapted, and changed to survive.

[iamthedave]

Jon Snow is one of the most honour-obsessed characters in the series. The idea that he would find Arya being an assassin to be a positive is ludicrous.

He might accept it due to the circumstances she's found herself in over time, but no way in hell is he going to like the idea of his little sister - a Stark, no less - sneaking about in the shadows slitting the throats of - potentially - innocent people for money.

As for Ygritte, when she killed that old man it left Jon stunned and horrified. He loved Ygritte, but he was extremely conflicted over it. A case, as Tyrion might say, of a man being led by his cock. Using that as evidence that he'll be okay with Arya becoming a contract killer is... questionable, at best.

Jon is not going to be the same as he was before, and even before it's not like Jon was completely against killing and violence, or anything.

The difference between 'violence and killing' and 'premeditated, pre-planned assassination for money' is as vast as the North.