Is Wow going to see the Starks vengence?

[David C. Hunter]

This book is called the Winds of Winter and given the fact that the Starks were once called the Kings of Winter that it is related to them.

Although I believe the Winds of Winter will be about the revenge of the North as a whole as compared to the just the Starks. All northern houses have suffered.

Them and what army? Really?

Here are the houses that are still loyal to the Starks(Even if they can't show it at the moment)

House Umber

House Karstak(Thanks to Alys)

House Cerwyn

The Mountain Clans

House Hornwood

House Mormount

House Glover

House Locke

House Tallhart

House Manderly

Here is there army. If Roose is defeated. 90% of the houses in the North will bend the knee immediately when a Stark is placed on the throne(Rickon, Arya, Jon). And the ones that dont? Well heart trees always need decorating.

Here are the houses loyal to Roose(Because of Blood ties)

House Ryswells(maybe)

House Dustin(maybe) - Dustin may even be working in secret with the Manderlys.

House Stout

The Boltons have no army. There army consisted of the Frey allegiance. If Ramsay would have had a baby with the fake Stark then his plan would have been waaay better off. But thanks to the spearwives, talking trees and Mance Raydar both Theon and Jeyne escaped. Not only that but Jon warned Stannis about the Karstak betrayel. Theon then warns him of the approaching Ramsay. Plus, Im sure the Manderlys will turncloak at some point before or during the battle. He is failing big time.

One half of the Umbers is already giving Roose Bolton a headache and the Manderlys alone can field 10,000 men. Roose at the most has 5000, half of which he just sent to their deaths for the Battle of Ice against Stannis.

There are other factors as well.

1.) Stannis has the Mountain Clans, Ironborn, Mormounts and Southerners with him. Stannis will unite all the banners together before a Stark returns, but I hope he bends the knee to the new King in the North because the Northerners will not bend to him once Rickon returns.

2.) Rickon Stark, Osha, Davos and Shaggy Dog are returning with a potential Skagos army. They are blood relatives, are they not? They will help with the siege of Winterfell and will be rewarded just like the Manderlys for their help

3.) The reawakened Jon Snow/Targaryan/Stark/AA along with his wildling horde and nights watch remnants. The Wildlings were coming to fight with him for Winterfell before the stabbing, Im sure once he reawakens they will do it still. The Nights Watch will join or get out of the way. Im sure Green, Pyp and Dolorous Edd will join him.

4.) Team Blood Raven - Theon's death is important because something supernatural could happen during the sacrifice. It could reawaken Jon. Regardless, Between the Ravens, Heart trees, etc they can help, with intel at the very least, for the battle.

5.) Arya Stark will be returning, possibly with a Bravosi sellsword company.

Bottom line is that by the end of the 6th book the Boltons and Freys can be devastated and Jon, Rickon or Asha will be sitting in Winterfell with potentially all of the relevant Northern houses, Skagosi army, Wildling/Nights watch horde, Sellsword company and talking trees.

I say potentitally because GRRM can really twist everything around. But the North looks like it will be one of the stronger houses when this book is done

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

This book is called the Winds of Winter and given the fact that the Starks were once called the Kings of Winter that it is related to them.

Although I believe the Winds of Winter will be about the revenge of the North as a whole as compared to the just the Starks. All northern houses have suffered.

Them and what army? Really?

Here are the houses that are still loyal to the Starks(Even if they can't show it at the moment)

House Umber

House Karstak(Thanks to Alys)

House Cerwyn

The Mountain Clans

House Hornwood

House Mormount

House Glover

House Locke

House Tallhart

House Manderly

Here is there army. If Roose is defeated. 90% of the houses in the North will bend the knee immediately when a Stark is placed on the throne(Rickon, Arya, Jon). And the ones that dont? Well heart trees always need decorating.

Here are the houses loyal to Roose(Because of Blood ties)

House Ryswells(maybe)

House Dustin(maybe) - Dustin may even be working in secret with the Manderlys.

House Stout

The Boltons have no army. There army consisted of the Frey allegiance. If Ramsay would have had a baby with the fake Stark then his plan would have been waaay better off. But thanks to the spearwives, talking trees and Mance Raydar both Theon and Jeyne escaped. Not only that but Jon warned Stannis about the Karstak betrayel. Theon then warns him of the approaching Ramsay. Plus, Im sure the Manderlys will turncloak at some point before or during the battle. He is failing big time.

One half of the Umbers is already giving Roose Bolton a headache and the Manderlys alone can field 10,000 men. Roose at the most has 5000, half of which he just sent to their deaths for the Battle of Ice against Stannis.

There are other factors as well.

1.) Stannis has the Mountain Clans, Ironborn, Mormounts and Southerners with him. Stannis will unite all the banners together before a Stark returns, but I hope he bends the knee to the new King in the North because the Northerners will not bend to him once Rickon returns.

2.) Rickon Stark, Osha, Davos and Shaggy Dog are returning with a potential Skagos army. They are blood relatives, are they not? They will help with the siege of Winterfell and will be rewarded just like the Manderlys for their help

3.) The reawakened Jon Snow/Targaryan/Stark/AA along with his wildling horde and nights watch remnants. The Wildlings were coming to fight with him for Winterfell before the stabbing, Im sure once he reawakens they will do it still. The Nights Watch will join or get out of the way. Im sure Green, Pyp and Dolorous Edd will join him.

4.) Team Blood Raven - Theon's death is important because something supernatural could happen during the sacrifice. It could reawaken Jon. Regardless, Between the Ravens, Heart trees, etc they can help, with intel at the very least, for the battle.

5.) Arya Stark will be returning, possibly with a Bravosi sellsword company.

Bottom line is that by the end of the 6th book the Boltons and Freys can be devastated and Jon, Rickon or Asha will be sitting in Winterfell with potentially all of the relevant Northern houses, Skagosi army, Wildling/Nights watch horde, Sellsword company and talking trees.

I say potentitally because GRRM can really twist everything around. But the North looks like it will be one of the stronger houses when this book is done

Nice but very unlikely

[Budj]

I think that the next book will give the Stark's some breaks and some success but their massive comeback probably won't be until the end.

[Errant Bard]

House Umber

House Karstak(Thanks to Alys)

House Cerwyn

The Mountain Clans

House Hornwood

House Mormount

House Glover

House Locke

House Tallhart

House Manderly

Here is there army.

Hmm, but:

• House Umber is split, and the GreatJon is hostage in the Twins. All they can do with their army is beat drums with a handful of boys or elderly guys
  
• House Kastark is split, and its army was mostly spent south, and Harrion is still hostage.
  
• House Cerwyn is destroyed, with only one young woman as head and no army left to them, thank to Ramsay.
  
• The mountain clans are with Stannis already, their strength doesn't amount to that much
  
• Hornwood doesn't exist anymore
  
• Mormont is entirely behind any Stark, but their army was spent down south. At the Red Wedding. And the only ones left are Maege and 12yo Lyanna, to lead, apparently.
  
• Glover, same as Mormont except it's near Duskendale its army met its doom.
  
• Tallhart: see Glover, except they lost the head of the house on top of their army. Leaves Helman's daughter and his grandsons. Who were made captive by a handful of ironmen in their own fief of Torrhen's Square, because they have no army, after the war and Winterfell and the Stony Shore skirmishes.
  
• Locke: unsure, all that's left is an old man who was too old to go to war.
  
• Manderly would throw its lot with Rickon, and he got his heir back, but would that mean he'd support someone less manipulable, despite the naive speeches of his granddaughter?

Roose Bolton and Barbrey Dustin and by extension the Ryswells, contrary to those, did spare their men in the war south and were not decimated by Ironmen near the stony shore or by Ramsay at Winterfell.

A lot is riding on Stannis here. If he manages to smash Freys and Boltons strength, the scales can shift, but as it is, military-wise, Roose is stronger by far. Manderly knows it, the Umbers know it, the Mountain clans know it, Jon knows it. That's why they help Stannis.

[OighearAgusTine]

Pretty much all the books have given all the Starks an atrocious time of it. Betrayed by their own bannermen and abused by all around them. The same can be said of the Tullys. In fact Manderlys daughters impassioned statement on what many Northmen felt about the Starks probably is the right of it.

Anyway, do you think the next book will see all the Starks suddenly become a massively important faction in the GoT again? Could they be the ones Tyrion believed would rise to defeat Aegon?

*Davos is on his way to get Rickon. But why would Manderly support fire worshipper Stannis if he gets the true King of the North? Things seem to be building towards the end of the Boltons and the other houses seem to be prepared to turn for Stark again. Essentially they could regain the North.

*After jamies disappearence the Lannister army in the Riverlands is disintegrating and melting away. That only leaves the hated Freys ruling over the Riverlands, many of whom were Tully bannermen who suffered at the Twins. Cat Stark is, although undead, still a Tully and could use the unrest to raise the Riverlands in revolt. Most of the Frey host went North and they've proven how militarily incompetant they were at Riverun.

*Sansa is in the Veil. Regardless of what happens, whether she gets rid of Baelish n marries lil Jon or if she convinces him to stake his claim as Lord of the Riverlands; Sansa will probably be in a real position of power. Potentially bringing the Vale and even the Riverlands. Again, theres no way a minor house like the Freys could resist a major one like Arryn who are at full strength. Sansa is as much a Tully as a Stark and Tully bannermen could well side with her on that premise. They, or she, could also sway House Tyrell (whats left of it after Aegon sows dissent among its bannermen) to ally themselves with House Stark.

Potentially that could dramatically change the power balance in Westeros. A big part of the last two books was to show that a big chunk of the Northern and Riverland armies were still fairly intact but disorganised and leaderless. They could take up arms again if the situation changed. Thats a fair chunk of Westeros that they could take back.

As an aside. If Arya learned that her house had returned, that probably would spur her to leave the Faceless Men and head for Westeros. Some like Rickon she thought were dead and she only left because the world seemed dead to her.

an interesting question/point - there's so much to the Starks when it come to their 8000 year history that anything is possibe, they seem to be survivors (being Northmen afterall) so I've been asking myself exactly the same questions, but they really aren't in a favourable position, they don't really have a united army any more, and Winterfell is going to need a lot of graft to bring it out of disrepair, but having said that the Starks are so full of character and so full of awesomeness, it's hard to imagine they'll just 'wither away'.

I hope GRRM delivers!

[summer_stark]

i love all the hopefulness, especially for wow, but i imagine if GRRM read this thread he'd just rub his hands together and chuckle.

i think wow will be about the invasion of the others and dany more than the regrouping of the starks. i do think some of it will involve starks -- rickon maybe coming back (probably w/o an army just b/c it'd be too easy for plot purposes -- same w/arya).

i hope stannis will win and that manderlys will show that they're on stannis' side in time for him to not burn them all. and i don't have great faith that great things will happen to the starks in the next book. i do hope, but i have little faith...if i could choose one thing, it would be arya finding nymeria. please. please grrm. bring her back and give her her damn wolf. please.

[Northern Winds]

House Manderly does has a large fleet (23 galleys according to Davos in ADWD) in White Harbor. Whether or not they will be utilised is still to be seen.

[total1402]

House Manderly does has a large fleet (23 galleys according to Davos in ADWD) in White Harbor. Whether or not they will be utilised is still to be seen.

White Harbours is quite close to the Vale...

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

The last book A Dream of Spring was going to be called A Time for Wolves but GRRM renamed it. Therefore it'll be the last book they get their comeback. The next book will involve Dany's invasion and Stannis's conquering of the North. It will end with the invasion of the Others IMO.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Hmm, but:

• House Umber is split, and the GreatJon is hostage in the Twins. All they can do with their army is beat drums with a handful of boys or elderly guys
  
• House Kastark is split, and its army was mostly spent south, and Harrion is still hostage.
  
• House Cerwyn is destroyed, with only one young woman as head and no army left to them, thank to Ramsay.
  
• The mountain clans are with Stannis already, their strength doesn't amount to that much
  
• Hornwood doesn't exist anymore
  
• Mormont is entirely behind any Stark, but their army was spent down south. At the Red Wedding. And the only ones left are Maege and 12yo Lyanna, to lead, apparently.
  
• Glover, same as Mormont except it's near Duskendale its army met its doom.
  
• Tallhart: see Glover, except they lost the head of the house on top of their army. Leaves Helman's daughter and his grandsons. Who were made captive by a handful of ironmen in their own fief of Torrhen's Square, because they have no army, after the war and Winterfell and the Stony Shore skirmishes.
  
• Locke: unsure, all that's left is an old man who was too old to go to war.
  
• Manderly would throw its lot with Rickon, and he got his heir back, but would that mean he'd support someone less manipulable, despite the naive speeches of his granddaughter?
  

Roose Bolton and Barbrey Dustin and by extension the Ryswells, contrary to those, did spare their men in the war south and were not decimated by Ironmen near the stony shore or by Ramsay at Winterfell.

A lot is riding on Stannis here. If he manages to smash Freys and Boltons strength, the scales can shift, but as it is, military-wise, Roose is stronger by far. Manderly knows it, the Umbers know it, the Mountain clans know it, Jon knows it. That's why they help Stannis.

Cerwyns aren't destroyed, Cley led a contingent of only 300 men at Winterfell. Cerwyns bent their knees at Barrowton.

Hornwoods are extinct but prior to the war they were in top 5 northern houses. Manderly led their men prior the ADWD in order to protect their lands.

As for Mormonts, you forgot Lyra and Jorelle.

Mountain clans contribution to Stannis is roughly 3000 men. After their losses in the war they can still dish out an army. And not all of them are behind him. He got support of the northernmost ones. There is no mention of Burleys, Harclays and Knotts.

[TrentonMartell]

Even if the starks do get a comeback, i don't think that it will be as "kings in the north", considering their only real hope of beating the boltons and the freys is by siding with Stannis. We already know that Stannis will not accept a king in the north, so there is no possible way that he would accept it now. I do think that they will be restored, but only as the Lords in the North.

But if Dany or Aegon do end up conquering Westeros, then there is no hope for the Starks, considering Ned was one of the leaders in the Usurpers rebellion.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Even if the starks do get a comeback, i don't think that it will be as "kings in the north", considering their only real hope of beating the boltons and the freys is by siding with Stannis. We already know that Stannis will not accept a king in the north, so there is no possible way that he would accept it now. I do think that they will be restored, but only as the Lords in the North.

But if Dany or Aegon do end up conquering Westeros, then there is no hope for the Starks, considering Ned was one of the leaders in the Usurpers rebellion.

Oh really, after dealing with Boltons if Rickon decides to take Stannis as his jester, who's going to stop him?

[total1402]

Even if the starks do get a comeback, i don't think that it will be as "kings in the north", considering their only real hope of beating the boltons and the freys is by siding with Stannis. We already know that Stannis will not accept a king in the north, so there is no possible way that he would accept it now. I do think that they will be restored, but only as the Lords in the North.

But if Dany or Aegon do end up conquering Westeros, then there is no hope for the Starks, considering Ned was one of the leaders in the Usurpers rebellion.

Stannis is actually a hinderence because he'll take his Northmen south, he only has a thousand or so knights left. Once the Northmen have Moat Cailin again then the North becomes unassailable from the South. Once they have that Stannis is a King who will drag them into a war they don't want in the dead of winter. Plus he is an avowed fire worshipper and this really aggrovates the Northmen.

Aegon could never take the North on his own. Ned Starks death means Dany really has nobody to take vengence on, though what she intends to do is admittedly vague, by and large her actions in Mereen show that shes overly merciful. So shes not going to chop the heads off the Stark children, none of which were alive during the Usurper War. Plus, Rickon would bear no shame in doing as his ancestor did and even whoresbane Umbar admitted that their oaths were sworn to the dragons. Granted, he meant real dragons and not the Targ dynasty but I think people would understand. Besides they're essentially already independent in all but name.

[David C. Hunter]

Nice but very unlikely

Why unlikely?

[David C. Hunter]

Hmm, but:

• House Umber is split, and the GreatJon is hostage in the Twins. All they can do with their army is beat drums with a handful of boys or elderly guys
  
• House Kastark is split, and its army was mostly spent south, and Harrion is still hostage.
  
• House Cerwyn is destroyed, with only one young woman as head and no army left to them, thank to Ramsay.
  
• The mountain clans are with Stannis already, their strength doesn't amount to that much
  
• Hornwood doesn't exist anymore
  
• Mormont is entirely behind any Stark, but their army was spent down south. At the Red Wedding. And the only ones left are Maege and 12yo Lyanna, to lead, apparently.
  
• Glover, same as Mormont except it's near Duskendale its army met its doom.
  
• Tallhart: see Glover, except they lost the head of the house on top of their army. Leaves Helman's daughter and his grandsons. Who were made captive by a handful of ironmen in their own fief of Torrhen's Square, because they have no army, after the war and Winterfell and the Stony Shore skirmishes.
  
• Locke: unsure, all that's left is an old man who was too old to go to war.
  
• Manderly would throw its lot with Rickon, and he got his heir back, but would that mean he'd support someone less manipulable, despite the naive speeches of his granddaughter?
  

Roose Bolton and Barbrey Dustin and by extension the Ryswells, contrary to those, did spare their men in the war south and were not decimated by Ironmen near the stony shore or by Ramsay at Winterfell.

A lot is riding on Stannis here. If he manages to smash Freys and Boltons strength, the scales can shift, but as it is, military-wise, Roose is stronger by far. Manderly knows it, the Umbers know it, the Mountain clans know it, Jon knows it. That's why they help Stannis.

1.) So you believe that if ordered to by Roose that half of the Umbers will fight their own kin in the siege? I think not.

2.) It doesnt matter if most of their army is gone from the Red Wedding, if theyhave 2,000 men to contribute to the alliance it is better than nothing, and it is better than most. The Karstaks are not as spli as you think as Im sure Lays can unite them really quicckly, especially with the traitors captured by Stannis. Roose Bolton only has 2,500 men tops at Winterfell. You need 10X that amount to sieze Winterfell. If Stannis has 4,000 men including the Mountain clans, Manderlys have 10,000 mean, and somehow the remaining Karstaks, Glovers, Stouts, Mormounts, Umbers, etc cant muster up 6,000 men to fight then you are mistaken.

3.) Not all the Cerwyns are dead and even though the Hornwoods are dead, there soldiers arent and the North remembers what happened to Lady Hornwood. You really think that if Rickon Stark/Stannis returns with a 20,000 man army that the Cerwyns, Umbers, will sit their and fight on Roose' behalf? Please

When Robb Stark went south he only went with maybe half of the North's army potential. So supposedly there can be as many as 18,000 - 20,000 men left in the North that can fight. This is also not including the Skagosi army that I truly believe will follow Rickon to Winterfell. If Jon shows up with any kind of army then alliances(my name for them) can defintely defeat Roose.

People are helping Stannis instead of Roose because he is a dishonorable turncloak as are the Freys, not because they feel sorry for Stannis. Its for revenge. I do not know the point you were making with your last paragraph. Roose is superior in one way, he holds a castle(Fort, whatever). Thats the only way he is advantageous. Obviously if Stannis doesnt defeat the Freys in the field then this is all for nothing, but evidence is suggesting that Stannis will be victorious against them, It was a stupid move to let them out in the first place.

House Bolton will not survive the 6th book, unless GRRM wants Roose Bolton to live and creates a deus ex machina outing for him.

Roose was the one who was looking scared when ADWD ended.

[revenant6]

Will House Stark get take revenge in the Winds of Winter? First and foremost, I certainly hope so. I do think the question is sadly, much more complex. I think the question of revenge is complicated by 2 things: 1) The general situation of the North and the Stark players, and 2) George as the author.

To get revenge, you have to take it out on people. At least in the North, the logical targets to me are the Freys and Boltons. I do think the situation looks pretty grim (thankfully) for both these houses. The reasons for this are well discussed in other threads, but loosely 1) Frey/Bolton alliance is flimsy, 2) stuck in a blizzard, 3) With questionable allies (Manderly) and 4) Stannis knows they're coming and Stannis knows a thing or 2 about a fight. So I think that both Frey and Bolton pay. Freys all die, but I worry that Roose wriggles out of it. For now (no- I have no proof or support). I think the Lannister's deserve some revenge, too. Who do the Stark's take revenge on from Lannister? Does Arya kill Cersei? I honestly don't know. Then there is House Baelish. He deserves a pretty heavy dose of Stark revenge. Hopefully he gets it from Sansa.

Back to the North - But what do you win when Manderly's and Baratheon's get your revenge for you. Stannis won't allow a king. So he makes Rickon (that Davos and Manderly bring back) Warden of the North. That's what Starks should be. Sadly, there is an undead army heading their way which seems to have some ill-intent. Actually, it wouldn't shock me if the Others "sensed" Dany was coming back to Westeros with dragons and they are moving south just to kill the dragons, thus restoring balance to "Ice and Fire". Sorry - that was beside the point. But really, Rickon becomes Warden of a bunch of de-populated regions filled with snow and likely, famine. And zombies. Not sure that counts as revenge. However, Sansa and Arya do have a decent chance of starting their process of revenge, but I think we might have to wait. Hope not, though.

The second part of my thoughts on Stark revenge deal with George himself. Having heard him speak, I know he wants his fantasy to be "real". And by "real", I mean that the goodguys (ie, Starks) might not win. And if they do "win" or get revenge, I'm pretty sure that not everybody that is left (Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and whatever is left of Jon) is going to make it. I do take some hope in the fact that the last book of the 3-book plan was "A Time for Wolves", which sounds pretty positive from a Stark perspective. I just worry that we will have to wait for ADoS to see it.

Sorry for the ramble, but I also don't think Stannis will go south. He already thinks he's king of Westeros. And he thinks it's his duty to fight the others/Wildings, protecting the realm. I'm pretty sure he'll die in the North (or become the Night's King?), just a question of when. Not to mention the storm. Nobody is going anywhere for a while.

[total1402]

Yeah I love how by real he means being an ass and having the villains win.

[The Wolves]

I hate Stannis he's an entitled dick who will kill his own kin over a ugly pointy chair. I hope Stannis dies that chair doesn't belong to him he's selfish, and stupid. I hope the North betrays him and stays independent, they need to find Rickon, Bran, Arya, and Sansa and bow to them proclaiming a Stark king or Queen of the North and seperate themselves from the South. I hate Stannis he is not owed anything, that's why I want Dany on the throne. I hate the Baratheons they are traitors who have no claim to that throne.

[Errant Bard]

Yeah I love how by real he means being an ass and having the villains win.

Even if he did let the "villains" win, which he will not, I don't see how it makes it acceptable to insult him over it: he's the storyteller, he tells a story, he's not owing you anything but that, and stories with downer ending (which, again, ASOIAF won't have) can be awesome.

Also, as far as villains winning go, you'll find that in any other Fantasy story, they usually have the upper hand in the middle of the story, too.

I hate Stannis he's an entitled dick who will kill his own kin over a ugly pointy chair. I hope Stannis dies that chair doesn't belong to him he's selfish, and stupid. I hope the North betrays him and stays independent, they need to find Rickon, Bran, Arya, and Sansa and bow to them proclaiming a Stark king or Queen of the North and seperate themselves from the South. I hate Stannis he is not owed anything, that's why I want Dany on the throne. I hate the Baratheons they are traitors who have no claim to that throne.

They all are entitled dicks. Dany same as Stannis. It's what thinking your blood entitles you to rule over millions of people entails. And yes, the Starks are dicks that way too.

[Garlan Marius]

If anything, things are going to get worse before they get better. The Stark motto is basically saying "get ready for shit to hit the fan." As of the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons, Winter HAS come.