R+L=J v.30

[Lady Octarina]

I don't think that Barristan knew either; Barristan explicitly points out in his POVs that Rhaegar trusted some of the KG more than others.

:agree:

Also, Barristan is basically a "dog" who is loyal to its owner (in this case, the person he swore an oath to) no matter what their faults might be.

I think LC Hightower probably supported Rhaegar as well. You all know I believe the Martells were aware of Rhaegar's plans, including the part about Lyanna, so I think he had Lewyn Martell's support too. He couldn't count on Barristan, and it was too soon to know whether he could trust in Jaime or not - but in the long run, if he had the chance, I think he would drag Jaime to his cause as well. We just have to remember how much influence Dayne and Hightower seemed to have on him at that point. Darry is the enigma here.

[rosiemags]

I'm new here, so please don't skewer me if any of this has been brought up in previous versions of R+L=J! Just a few pieces of evidence for or against various scenarios that have been brought up that I don't believe I've read from others:

As has been discussed at length, Ned seems to have an opinion of Rhaegar somewhere between neutral (at least) and respectful (at most). When he speaks of Rhaegar not visiting brothels in stark (no pun intended) contrast to his friend, Robert, I don't believe it's a stretch to see that as a bigger statement about how different the two men were and how different the realm might be if Rhaegar had been the victor at Ruby Ford. Not exactly how one might imagine reminiscing about your sister's rapist.

In a similar vein, I also think that his feelings towards Ser Arthur Dayne support the idea that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and that Ned was aware of this after he found her in the TofJ. I know Ned is a very fair, honorable guy, but would he really hold in such high esteem a man who had been complicit in the abduction and repeated rape of his sister? Would he have then seen fit to take Dayne's sword to Ashara and the rest of the family? I think even Ned might hold a bit more of a grudge than that. Rather, these seem to be the actions/words of a man who regretted killing such a fine knight after he learned the truth from Lyanna. If this is the case, he owes a debt of gratitude to Dayne for keeping his sister and her son safe.

Finally, in support of the idea that the Martells may have known and even approved of bringing Lyanna into Elia & Rhaegar's marriage, is the complete lack of evidence that Oberyn has any ill will towards Rhaegar. Granted, the Targs have been wiped out, Rhaegar is dead and the Red Viper has turned his focus (rightfully so) to vengence against the Lannisters/Clegane. However, Oberyn is consumed with his sister's murder and it seems unlikely that he (and the rest of Dorne, for that matter) would have stood idle while his sister was essentially put aside. Dorne even supported the Targs in the rebellion! Doesn't it seem like in between his rants about the Mountain or Lord Tywin he might have added a tidbit or two about how Rhaegar treated Elia, if Dorne wasn't in on the whole thing? Also, we know that Oberyn, himself, is no stranger to multiple partners (sometimes even at the same time!) and probably has a rather loose definition of marriage.

[King Doug]

I'm new here, so please don't skewer me if any of this has been brought up in previous versions of R+L=J! Just a few pieces of evidence for or against various scenarios that have been brought up that I don't believe I've read from others:

As has been discussed at length, Ned seems to have an opinion of Rhaegar somewhere between neutral (at least) and respectful (at most). When he speaks of Rhaegar not visiting brothels in stark (no pun intended) contrast to his friend, Robert, I don't believe it's a stretch to see that as a bigger statement about how different the two men were and how different the realm might be if Rhaegar had been the victor at Ruby Ford. Not exactly how one might imagine reminiscing about your sister's rapist.

In a similar vein, I also think that his feelings towards Ser Arthur Dayne support the idea that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and that Ned was aware of this after he found her in the TofJ. I know Ned is a very fair, honorable guy, but would he really hold in such high esteem a man who had been complicit in the abduction and repeated rape of his sister? Would he have then seen fit to take Dayne's sword to Ashara and the rest of the family? I think even Ned might hold a bit more of a grudge than that. Rather, these seem to be the actions/words of a man who regretted killing such a fine knight after he learned the truth from Lyanna. If this is the case, he owes a debt of gratitude to Dayne for keeping his sister and her son safe.

Finally, in support of the idea that the Martells may have known and even approved of bringing Lyanna into Elia & Rhaegar's marriage, is the complete lack of evidence that Oberyn has any ill will towards Rhaegar. Granted, the Targs have been wiped out, Rhaegar is dead and the Red Viper has turned his focus (rightfully so) to vengence against the Lannisters/Clegane. However, Oberyn is consumed with his sister's murder and it seems unlikely that he (and the rest of Dorne, for that matter) would have stood idle while his sister was essentially put aside. Dorne even supported the Targs in the rebellion! Doesn't it seem like in between his rants about the Mountain or Lord Tywin he might have added a tidbit or two about how Rhaegar treated Elia, if Dorne wasn't in on the whole thing? Also, we know that Oberyn, himself, is no stranger to multiple partners (sometimes even at the same time!) and probably has a rather loose definition of marriage.

Welcome to the forums!

Your first two points are good observations. They have been discussed before but it's been a while. I don't expect anyone to read the previous 29 versions of this thread to double check. But I definitely agree with you. I wouldn't think very highly of my sister's rapist and his protector if that's what they turned out to be.

Your third point I have thought about a lot as well. I actually started a thread about it a long time ago. I couldn't figure out why the Martells kept supporting the Targaryens after Rhaegar's apparent slight against Elia and House Dorne. But the Martells keep plotting with Targaryens. First it was a marriage contract with Darry to wed Arianne to Viserys, then it was sending Quentyn to wed Danaerys, now we have Arianne traveling to parley with Aegon (and I'm assuming to propose marriage if it goes well). They did support the Targaryens in the rebellion, but I'm not sure they would have gotten involved if Aerys didn't have Elia as a captive and that forced Doran to supply 10,000 spears which were led to the Trident by Lewyn Martell.

The general consensus was that the Martells probably were aware of what was happening between Rhaegar and Elia. Oberyn and Elia were, after all, very close. But after the sack of King's Landing, when Elia was raped and killed with her children, the lust for revenge against the Lannisters far outweighed whatever slight they might have perceived with Rhaegar taking Lyanna to bed.

[Dragonfish]

GRRM's words confirm many suspicions that Rhaegar had at least some support among the Kingsguard.

Confirmation? What confirmation? All I recall is George saying "keep reading." Where is the confirmation in this? He didn't even answer the question.

[Lady Octarina]

If this is the case, he owes a debt of gratitude to Dayne for keeping his sister and her son safe.

First of all, welcome! I agree with nearly everything you said, but I'd just like to point out that whatever remorse he may have felt for killing Dayne and the others when they were just protecting Lyanna was probably diminished by the notion that, if he hadn't done that, they would have used the child, his nephew, in the game of thrones in a continuation of whatever Rhaegar's plans were.

But I always found it funny that the rest of the realm simply accepted he would have bothered to take Dayne's sword to Starfall because that would be the honorable thing. Ned's honor has made so many players overlook some of his most meaningful choices that I can't help but find it hilarious. Of course, those that liked to see things in a darker light probably thought Ned just used Dawn as an excuse to see Ashara again, no matter how rude that would be. :ack:

Finally, in support of the idea that the Martells may have known and even approved of bringing Lyanna into Elia & Rhaegar's marriage, is the complete lack of evidence that Oberyn has any ill will towards Rhaegar. Granted, the Targs have been wiped out, Rhaegar is dead and the Red Viper has turned his focus (rightfully so) to vengence against the Lannisters/Clegane. However, Oberyn is consumed with his sister's murder and it seems unlikely that he (and the rest of Dorne, for that matter) would have stood idle while his sister was essentially put aside. Dorne even supported the Targs in the rebellion! Doesn't it seem like in between his rants about the Mountain or Lord Tywin he might have added a tidbit or two about how Rhaegar treated Elia, if Dorne wasn't in on the whole thing? Also, we know that Oberyn, himself, is no stranger to multiple partners (sometimes even at the same time!) and probably has a rather loose definition of marriage.

I agree with this (especially the point about how the lack of rants from Oberyn and Doran about Rhaegar and the Targs is suspicious), except for what King Doug pointed out. But this raises another point: we are told in the books they only joined the Targ forces to ensure Elia's safety (and her children's), and that it happened much later in the war. My question is: how much later was that? Around the time Rhaegar himself joined the fight, maybe? Because I don't think anyone can deny they weren't Aerys' fans (otherwise, even crazy as he was, he wouldn't have felt the need to have his Dornish prisoners), but they still would have an interest in suppressing the rebellion for Aegon's and Rhaenys' sakes. But why wait that long to join the fight? I believe they were waiting for Rhaegar to make a move, a plan, whatever. I wouldn't even be that surprised if they kept in touch with him while he was at the ToJ.

[King Doug]

I agree with this (especially the point about how the lack of rants from Oberyn and Doran about Rhaegar and the Targs is suspicious), except for what King Doug pointed out. But this raises another point: we are told in the books they only joined the Targ forces to ensure Elia's safety (and her children's), and that it happened much later in the war. My question is: how much later was that? Around the time Rhaegar himself joined the fight, maybe? Because I don't think anyone can deny they weren't Aerys' fans (otherwise, even crazy as he was, he wouldn't have felt the need to have his Dornish prisoners), but they still would have an interest in suppressing the rebellion for Aegon's and Rhaenys' sakes. But why wait that long to join the fight? I believe they were waiting for Rhaegar to make a move, a plan, whatever. I wouldn't even be that surprised if they kept in touch with him while he was at the ToJ.

Completely agree. The fact that they were aware of Rhaegar's possible plans might explain their delayed response. Elia would be the queen when Rhaegar took over, why wouldn't they want to defend that? They had to have been in contact with Rhaegar

[rosiemags]

Your third point I have thought about a lot as well. I actually started a thread about it a long time ago. I couldn't figure out why the Martells kept supporting the Targaryens after Rhaegar's apparent slight against Elia and House Dorne. But the Martells keep plotting with Targaryens. First it was a marriage contract with Darry to wed Arianne to Viserys, then it was sending Quentyn to wed Danaerys, now we have Arianne traveling to parley with Aegon (and I'm assuming to propose marriage if it goes well). They did support the Targaryens in the rebellion, but I'm not sure they would have gotten involved if Aerys didn't have Elia as a captive and that forced Doran to supply 10,000 spears which were led to the Trident by Lewyn Martell.

The general consensus was that the Martells probably were aware of what was happening between Rhaegar and Elia. Oberyn and Elia were, after all, very close. But after the sack of King's Landing, when Elia was raped and killed with her children, the lust for revenge against the Lannisters far outweighed whatever slight they might have perceived with Rhaegar taking Lyanna to bed.

Thanks for the welcome!

Hhmm...hadn't connected how the Targ/Martell alliance has continued through several more recent (attempted) unions. Might be that you're onto something; perhaps it's bigger than the just Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna love triangle. Very interesting!

Also, while the "hostage" situation at King's Landing certainly helps explains Dorne's support (as both you and Lady Octarina pointed out) it does seem that ultimately they had to know that Elia & her children could just as easily face death at the hands of a new victorious usuper king as at the hands of Mad Aerys. Perhaps it's hindsight (afterall, the winners always write the history books), but I've always had the impression that a victory for the rebels seemed rather certain, especially at a certain point in the war. Others may disagree. Either way, Aerys was mentally unstable, he was replacing advisors more than his robes, at least some of the White Cloaks were far from the city, protecting someone other than the king, battles were being won left and right by various leaders of the rebel movement, the crown prince was nowhere to be found and nearly everyone north of King's Landing (a rather big chunk of the realm) had sided against the Targs. Seems like his kingdom was falling apart around him. If the King's Landing of Aerys' day was anything like the ones currently depicted in ASoIaF, the Martells certainly should have had someone planted in the council/Kingsgaurd/CityWatch who could've conspired to protect or even rescue Princess Elia. That's how the game is played, after all! Intersting that instead they chose to keep up the alliance until the bitter end.

[rosiemags]

First of all, welcome! I agree with nearly everything you said, but I'd just like to point out that whatever remorse he may have felt for killing Dayne and the others when they were just protecting Lyanna was probably diminished by the notion that, if he hadn't done that, they would have used the child, his nephew, in the game of thrones in a continuation of whatever Rhaegar's plans were.

True! I was recently thinking that it was rather thoughtless of Ned to allow Jon to take the black without knowing his true identity. Although Jon most likely didn't express to Ned his true motivations for becoming a brother of the Night's Watch, Ned had to guess that it had to do with having no claim, being a bastard, feeing despised by Catelyn, etc. All of which would no longer apply if he was not Ned's bastard son. He had to know that if/when Jon did find out who he was, he would be unable to do anything about it (even if he was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne). Ned would know that better than anyone. He who passes the sentence...

However, I think your comment about not wanting Jon to be a pawn in the game made me remember what kind of man Ned was. It may have been a hard internal debate and unfair as it might seem for him to take the choice away from Jon, I think it is true to Ned's character that he would view Jon's royal blood not as a blessing, but a curse. Ned saw what happened to so many others who grasped for power and he may have decided that allowing Jon to live a simpler, purer life on the Wall was actually a way of protecting him. Perhaps he even knew the story of Maester Aemon.

[kg1982]

Actually it seemed that most people didn't even see the rebellion as serious until after the Battle of the Bells and it didn't seem lost until Rhaegar died on the Trident.

[SFDanny]

:agree:

Also, Barristan is basically a "dog" who is loyal to its owner (in this case, the person he swore an oath to) no matter what their faults might be.

I think LC Hightower probably supported Rhaegar as well. You all know I believe the Martells were aware of Rhaegar's plans, including the part about Lyanna, so I think he had Lewyn Martell's support too. He couldn't count on Barristan, and it was too soon to know whether he could trust in Jaime or not - but in the long run, if he had the chance, I think he would drag Jaime to his cause as well. We just have to remember how much influence Dayne and Hightower seemed to have on him at that point. Darry is the enigma here.

Welcome to the forums!

Your first two points are good observations. They have been discussed before but it's been a while. I don't expect anyone to read the previous 29 versions of this thread to double check. But I definitely agree with you. I wouldn't think very highly of my sister's rapist and his protector if that's what they turned out to be.

Your third point I have thought about a lot as well. I actually started a thread about it a long time ago. I couldn't figure out why the Martells kept supporting the Targaryens after Rhaegar's apparent slight against Elia and House Dorne. But the Martells keep plotting with Targaryens. First it was a marriage contract with Darry to wed Arianne to Viserys, then it was sending Quentyn to wed Danaerys, now we have Arianne traveling to parley with Aegon (and I'm assuming to propose marriage if it goes well). They did support the Targaryens in the rebellion, but I'm not sure they would have gotten involved if Aerys didn't have Elia as a captive and that forced Doran to supply 10,000 spears which were led to the Trident by Lewyn Martell.

The general consensus was that the Martells probably were aware of what was happening between Rhaegar and Elia. Oberyn and Elia were, after all, very close. But after the sack of King's Landing, when Elia was raped and killed with her children, the lust for revenge against the Lannisters far outweighed whatever slight they might have perceived with Rhaegar taking Lyanna to bed.

George has already told us the Martells (meaning at least Doran and Oberyn) were angry with Rhaegar over his treatment of Elia:

September 11, 1999

THE BARATHEON BROTHERS

First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned. (So Spake Martin) bold emphasis added

Secondly, if the Martells knew R+L=J was true they surely wouldn't be negotiating a secret pact with Ser William Darry to have Arianne marry Viserys. He would have tried to have the secret marriage agreement with Ned concerning Jon. There isn't a hint that the Martell brothers knew. The Daynes, on the other hand, had to know. They don't accept Wylla into their home and protection letting her tell everyone Jon is her child with Ned, and at the same let it out that Ashara commits suicide because she loved Ned. NO ONE does that without something being hidden.

[Budj]

Yes - I would definitely look towards the Daynes and NOT to the Martells if we are looking for another "in" family for R + L westerosi conspiracies.

[Lady Octarina]

Secondly, if the Martells knew R+L=J was true they surely wouldn't be negotiating a secret pact with Ser William Darry to have Arianne marry Viserys. He would have tried to have the secret marriage agreement with Ned concerning Jon. There isn't a hint that the Martell brothers knew. The Daynes, on the other hand, had to know. They don't accept Wylla into their home and protection letting her tell everyone Jon is her child with Ned, and at the same let it out that Ashara commits suicide because she loved Ned. NO ONE does that without something being hidden.

I'm still not that ready to disregard the Martells as simply the wronged family - there are too many details to contradict that notion. Anyway, being angry with Rhaegar doesn't mean they wouldn't support his plans as long as Aegon and Rhaenys had something to gain from it.

As to whether or not they know about Jon and that he is not a bastard, I don't think it makes any difference as far as their plans to wed Arianne to a potential king go. Assuming they know who he is, they also know he's being passed as a bastard, and Ned's honor and loyalty to Robert is so well known that I doubt they ever thought he would allow them anywhere near the boy. And by the time Ned was out of the way, Jon had taken the black. Viserys, on the other hand, was known throughout the realm as Aerys' son, and if he was that weak-minded as a child, it's not unlikely they thought he would be easier to manipulate than a boy raised on the North.

[SFDanny]

I'm still not that ready to disregard the Martells as simply the wronged family - there are too many details to contradict that notion. Anyway, being angry with Rhaegar doesn't mean they wouldn't support his plans as long as Aegon and Rhaenys had something to gain from it.

I wouldn't characterize the Martells as "simply the wronged family" either, but from their point of view they certainly had something to be angry about - as Martin confirms. Before Rhaegar takes off with Lyanna, everything is clear; a nephew of the Prince of Dorne will sit on the Iron Throne someday. Lyanna raises questions about whether that will be true. For the Martell brothers it doesn't even matter if Elia is fine with what Rhaegar does because it places the possibility of a rival claimant to the throne - a rival non-dornish claimant to the throne - as a real outcome. Of course they are pissed, and it doesn't much matter that Aegon is still Rhaegar's rightful heir. Heirs can be set aside, or mysterious things can happen to them. So, I don't see what they get out of Rhaegar's conduct with Lyanna for Aegon and Rhaenys. Now, as I said because the brothers are angry doesn't mean Elia is as well. We know she knows about Rhaegar's belief in prophecy, and she may believe in it also. She maybe fine with a second wife. I don't see her as likely to accept a publicly known mistress however. That's just a slap in the face even if she privately doesn't mind if she never sees Rhaegar again (something I don't buy either.)

As to whether or not they know about Jon and that he is not a bastard, I don't think it makes any difference as far as their plans to wed Arianne to a potential king go. Assuming they know who he is, they also know he's being passed as a bastard, and Ned's honor and loyalty to Robert is so well known that I doubt they ever thought he would allow them anywhere near the boy. And by the time Ned was out of the way, Jon had taken the black. Viserys, on the other hand, was known throughout the realm as Aerys' son, and if he was that weak-minded as a child, it's not unlikely they thought he would be easier to manipulate than a boy raised on the North.

After the sack, the primary motive of both the brothers is revenge. If they know Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna they have a very powerful tool to make Ned Stark do as they say. If he is a bastard they have no reason not to use it, yet we see no evidence. If Jon is legitimate all they have to do is force Ned to say he is Jon Sand born of a liason with bannerman's daughter and have him raised in their midst. Yet we still hear of Wylla claiming him as her own. No, I don't buy it. They don't know. Nor would Ned tell them. He has to tell the Daynes, not the Martells.

While we're at it, let me say it is obvious that the Martells know nothing of Varys scheme with Young Griff. If they did, again, the marriage contract wouldn't be with Viserys, but with Aegon - if they believed him to be really Rhaegar and Elia's son.

[King Doug]

George has already told us the Martells (meaning at least Doran and Oberyn) were angry with Rhaegar over his treatment of Elia:

September 11, 1999

THE BARATHEON BROTHERS

First. When Cersei and Ned talked in the godswood in aGoT, she mentioned Jon, and wondered who his mother was, (paraphrasing) "...Some peasant wife you raped, while her holdfast burned?" This indicates that there were fightings in Dorne when Ned went there to get Lyanna back. But I thought the Martells stayed out of the war, and that Ned went there when the war was all over. So: did Ned take an army with him into Dorne, or not?

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. But it's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. Cersei's line reflects no more than a desire to wound, to say something nasty to get a rise out of Ned. (So Spake Martin) bold emphasis added

Secondly, if the Martells knew R+L=J was true they surely wouldn't be negotiating a secret pact with Ser William Darry to have Arianne marry Viserys. He would have tried to have the secret marriage agreement with Ned concerning Jon. There isn't a hint that the Martell brothers knew. The Daynes, on the other hand, had to know. They don't accept Wylla into their home and protection letting her tell everyone Jon is her child with Ned, and at the same let it out that Ashara commits suicide because she loved Ned. NO ONE does that without something being hidden.

That's good stuff!

At least we know they were upset about it. They still might have known about Rhaegar's plans. As long as Elia is the queen, and Aegon is the heir, I think they would have sucked it up and allowed it. It's not like there was anything they could do about it.

Let's assume they do know about R+L=J. Why would that stop them from plotting? They knew just as well as Ned did that if Robert found out Jon was a Targaryen then Robert would be SUPER pissed. So they had to have known that Ned wouldn't reveal his identity due to Robert's wrath. I'm not sure if Ned would have ever told Jon if all went well. Maybe he might have told him on his deathbed. But who knows?

[FrozenFire3]

Finally, in support of the idea that the Martells may have known and even approved of bringing Lyanna into Elia & Rhaegar's marriage, is the complete lack of evidence that Oberyn has any ill will towards Rhaegar. Granted, the Targs have been wiped out, Rhaegar is dead and the Red Viper has turned his focus (rightfully so) to vengence against the Lannisters/Clegane. However, Oberyn is consumed with his sister's murder and it seems unlikely that he (and the rest of Dorne, for that matter) would have stood idle while his sister was essentially put aside. Dorne even supported the Targs in the rebellion! Doesn't it seem like in between his rants about the Mountain or Lord Tywin he might have added a tidbit or two about how Rhaegar treated Elia, if Dorne wasn't in on the whole thing? Also, we know that Oberyn, himself, is no stranger to multiple partners (sometimes even at the same time!) and probably has a rather loose definition of marriage.

Welcome to the forums!

Your third point I have thought about a lot as well. I actually started a thread about it a long time ago. I couldn't figure out why the Martells kept supporting the Targaryens after Rhaegar's apparent slight against Elia and House Dorne. But the Martells keep plotting with Targaryens. First it was a marriage contract with Darry to wed Arianne to Viserys, then it was sending Quentyn to wed Danaerys, now we have Arianne traveling to parley with Aegon (and I'm assuming to propose marriage if it goes well). They did support the Targaryens in the rebellion, but I'm not sure they would have gotten involved if Aerys didn't have Elia as a captive and that forced Doran to supply 10,000 spears which were led to the Trident by Lewyn Martell.

The general consensus was that the Martells probably were aware of what was happening between Rhaegar and Elia. Oberyn and Elia were, after all, very close. But after the sack of King's Landing, when Elia was raped and killed with her children, the lust for revenge against the Lannisters far outweighed whatever slight they might have perceived with Rhaegar taking Lyanna to bed.

I agree with this (especially the point about how the lack of rants from Oberyn and Doran about Rhaegar and the Targs is suspicious), except for what King Doug pointed out. But this raises another point: we are told in the books they only joined the Targ forces to ensure Elia's safety (and her children's), and that it happened much later in the war. My question is: how much later was that? Around the time Rhaegar himself joined the fight, maybe? Because I don't think anyone can deny they weren't Aerys' fans (otherwise, even crazy as he was, he wouldn't have felt the need to have his Dornish prisoners), but they still would have an interest in suppressing the rebellion for Aegon's and Rhaenys' sakes. But why wait that long to join the fight? I believe they were waiting for Rhaegar to make a move, a plan, whatever. I wouldn't even be that surprised if they kept in touch with him while he was at the ToJ.

Wow! That was a long multi-quote! ;) First of all, welcome Rosiemags!! Excellent points there ^_^

What I could never figure out was why Rhaegar would hurt/humiliate Elia in such a way when he ran off with Lyanna. Well, of course we know 'why' but I just can't see Rhaegar doing something like that to his wife, I can't see him dishonouring her... after all, she was the mother of his children, his two dragons, his "PtwP". Officially, in the eyes of all the realm, he did dishonour her (although I don't think womens' status was held in high regard so the people's "shock" and surprise were not because of what he did to Elia but rather what he did to Lyanna) but in private, between them, did he? We know he acted quite impulsively and probably didn't think twice before deciding to elope with Lyanna (the whole matter did indeed lead to a war) but I somehow can't bring myself to think he would have just left Elia there... I believe she let him go. Their relationship was one of mutual admiration and friendship but not of love and passion so when she understood how important the prophecies had become for him, she stepped aside.

As for her family, we know she was quite close to Oberyn so... whatever happened, they knew all along. If there had been some planning and scheming going on, they must have known. If Rhaegar wanted to settle matters with his father, make him renounce to the throne once the war was over and maybe establish poligamy once more, then yes, I can see the Martells supporting the Targaryens, thus him. Otherwise, I can't really explain why they wouldn't "hate" Targaryens along with the Lannisters if they thought Rhaegar had really wronged Elia.

[Sapphire]

Ok, I just read the new interview and there's some good tidbits. Seems like this mystery won't be solved until the last book. :tantrum: I'm not surprised, but come on! The cat's out of the bag. The cast has all but confirmed it. The reveal better be so mind blowing I lose my eyesight or something. I was hoping Bran would see something relevant in TWOW.

We know he acted quite impulsively and probably didn't think twice before deciding to elope with Lyanna (the whole matter did indeed lead to a war) but I somehow can't bring myself to think he would have just left Elia there... I believe she let him go. Their relationship was one of mutual admiration and friendship but not of love and passion so when she understood how important the prophecies had become for him, she stepped aside.

As for her family, we know she was quite close to Oberyn so... whatever happened, they knew all along. If there had been some planning and scheming going on, they must have known. If Rhaegar wanted to settle matters with his father, make him renounce to the throne once the war was over and maybe establish poligamy once more, then yes, I can see the Martells supporting the Targaryens, thus him. Otherwise, I can't really explain why they wouldn't "hate" Targaryens along with the Lannisters if they thought Rhaegar had really wronged Elia.

We don't know if Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna on impulse tho. If he fell in love with her at Harrenhal, then he let one or two years go by before he acted on it. And he somehow transported her across the country with no one none the wiser. Sounds like some planning went into that disappearing act.

Oberyn's lack of hate toward Rhaegar says a lot I think. He dearly loved his sister and was devastated with her murder yet not once did he speak ill of Rhaegar. And Oberyn is a blunt person, he accuses Tywin of ordering the murder of Elia and her kids to Tyrion's face and doesn't give a damn that word could get around. I don't think the Martells were in on Rhaegar's plan, but I do believe Elia kept contact with them and in the barest way possible let them know she was aware of the elopement.

[Alia of the knife]

Maybe the answer is just really simple in the case of Elia.

Martin makes much of Elia and her frail health in the books, so from the Authors clues, I might surmise that the environment of KL is not the best for her health.

She was bedridden for six months after the birth of Rhaenys- not good times I imagine.

Chronically ill people sometimes expend all the energy they have left on trying to get better, so maybe she gave all she had to give.

This does NOT make her weak, but it's just the reality of her situation.

Maybe she simply couldn't be bothered with Rhaegar and his prophesies- that doesn't make her hostile to him, and they may have had an overall congenial relationship given her own nature. But, she also understands that people in their positions have a part to play publically on the Court stage, but privately, she may have wanted nothing more but to go back to the Water Gardens of beautiful Dorne.

KL sounds like a hell hole- dark, stinking, dangerous, your Good Father is a madman running through the halls, and your Good Mother, the Queen, not safe in her own home. :ack:

Remember Tyrions POV that if Elia had married Baelor,(breakwind) Hightower and lived in Old Town, rather than Rhaegar Targaryen, she might still be alive, watching her children grow tall around her?

She may have struck a deal with Rhaegar and said, I won't resist this, but I get to leave.

Rhaenys could still be with her, and as far as Aegon goes, I don't think Mothers of this time, (except Ariannes Mother), really expected to see their sons for very long given that most of them would be fostered out, so Aegon may have ended up in Dorne anyway being fostered by Oberyn, or Doran.

Rhaenys would be betrothed, (if she wasn't made to marry Aegon- and do we know for sure that Elia was okay with that idea?), and sent to her betrothed's family like Myrcella.

And then there is the fact that Aerys took her hostage.

If he had to take her hostage, it sounds like he didn't get the message she was supposedly okay with everything.

[firewareagle]

Possible ADWD spoiler:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Ned Stark apparently gave his word to Lord Godric Borrell's father that he never came or sought passage through the Sweetsister. Isn't this a factor in favor of Jon Snow being the son of a fisherman's daughter? Ned hold's his vows sacred and he gave Godric's father his word thus he kept his word by not telling anyone the true mother of Jon.

This also goes along the lines of GRRM writing tendencies. Seemingly insignificant yet very important in the large scale nonetheless.

[dsontag]

R+L=J. Jon's Direwolf Ghost was born with Red eyes. targaryens- purple eyes, stark- blue eyes. Also, Red, fire, dragons.

[The guy from the Vale]

Possible ADWD spoiler:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Ned Stark apparently gave his word to Lord Godric Borrell's father that he never came or sought passage through the Sweetsister. Isn't this a factor in favor of Jon Snow being the son of a fisherman's daughter? Ned hold's his vows sacred and he gave Godric's father his word thus he kept his word by not telling anyone the true mother of Jon.

This also goes along the lines of GRRM writing tendencies. Seemingly insignificant yet very important in the large scale nonetheless.

But Ned could pass off Jon as younger than Robb at a very young age. However, Robb was sired at least two months after the begin of the war, while Ned met the fisherman's daughter at the very beginning of the war. So... while it's possible that Jon is the son of the fisherman's daughter, I think it makes very little sense from a multitude of angles.