R+L=J v.30

[Shaggy Rickon]

Another thought...did Eddard really lie?

There is a story that Lord Borrell of Sweetsister tells Davos concerning the birth of Jon Snow. According to Borrell's father, Eddard fathered Jon on the daughter of a fisherman who was helping to smuggle Stark from the Eyrie back north to raise his banners in the rebellion. Apparently the fisherman died in a storm at sea but his daughter got Ned safely ashore on the Three Sisters. As the tale has it the girl had a son that she named Jon in honor of Jon Arryn.

Why did Martin throw this into book five completely out of the blue? No one seems to believe that Jon Snow was fathered this way. Is it simply a bad attempt at misdirection? Is the companion pieces to Wylla and Ashara Dayne. Maybe it's something else. Maybe it plays to Ned's honor. If the story is factually correct then it takes place before Catelyn enters the picture. Catelyn, who was betrothed to Ned's dead brother, marries Ned after the rebellion begins as a way to bring the Riverlands and the Tully's into the rebellion. It also nicely covers Ned's lies about Jon Snow. Ned is always careful what he says about Jon. Things like ur my blood but not ur son. If he did have a bastard son named Jon Snow growing up on a fishing boat in the Fingers, it would be the perfect identity to give the baby he brought back from the war. Ned's lies now become one of ommision, leaving out the part that he had a bastard before he married Catelyn sacrifices his own honor to protect the baby. I fathered a bastard son named Jon Snow and that's all im saying on the subject.

I tried to put this theory forward some time ago. Unfortunately there weren't any takers. Although you have explained it much better than I did. It seems more plausible to me and fits in with eddard's character.

[Ygrain]

itachi snow, I'm convinced that Brandon knew very well his sister went willingly. He doesn't show up at King's Landing yelling for the release of his sister. He shows up calling for Rhaegar to come out and die. He is angry, I believe, because the Stark's house word and privileges have been dishonored by the actions of both Rhaegar and Lyanna, not because he fears for his sister's safety. Obviously Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, even though she expresses her reservations about this marriage to at least Ned (I can't see that she only told Ned her feelings given the "wild wolf" nature of Ned's description of her) and all of her three brothers were at Harrenhal to see her and Rhaegar interact. My guess based on this is, given all the examples we have of family feuds concerning the rights of Lords to make marriage contracts, and the fact that Brandon himself is bound to fulfill such a contract (quite possibly against his own inclinations) is that he rages against his sister as much as with Rhaegar.

Very much what I think, as well. Or, if Brandon did think she was kidnapped, it doesn't show his priorities in a very positive light.

[SFDanny]

Very much what I think, as well. Or, if Brandon did think she was kidnapped, it doesn't show his priorities in a very positive light.

I should have also spoke to the other aspect of this that would contribute to Brandon's rage, even if he knows his sister went willingly. In ADwD we get more information about Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions" centered around his web of alliances he is crafting between House Stark, House Arryn, House Baratheon, House Tully, and possibly even an attempt to bring in House Lannister (Jaime's introduction to Lysa Tully during his visit to Riverrun) all against Targaryen rule. Rhaegar and Lyanna's elopement - if that is what it really is - lays waste to these carefully spun plans. As it turns out Aerys's mad actions force the Houses in the alliance he fears all along, but before this happens Brandon's rage looks to be fueled by the destruction of Rickard's plans.

[Sapphire]

Let's agree on this, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. I think we can agree on this too, Rhaegar did have some sense left to think of his current family and children and the realm and not run away like a love stricken juvenile. I can accept that in his head it was important to have a third child and out of love he prefered this child to be with Lyanna. I can also accept that to honor his relationship with Lyanna he proposed to marry her too and make their child legitimate. What I can't explain and thus accept is, first, why did he keep it a secret? It would be much more honorable to ask for her family's approval and less complicated and second, why did Lyanna accept to marry Rhaegar while he was married? Mind that Lyanna is a Stark who don't believe in polygamy but honor the marriage union in the presence of the Seven.

We don't know if Rhaegar ever made an attempt to go through the proper channels to be with Lyanna, but I can understand why they kept things under wraps. They have one chance to pull it off. Rhaegar undoubtedly discussed with Lyanna how Rickard might respond to breaking up her betrothal with Robert. If she says "my father would sooner cut off his tongue than go back on his word", at that point a secret elopement is the only choice for them. Otherwise they risk alerting Rickard and Lyanna could be placed under guards.

As for polygamy, I assume the Westerlings were followers of the Seven, who abhor both polygamy and incest, yet that didn't stop Jeyne Westerling from marrying Maegor. Or for that matter didn't stop other houses from marrying Targaryens knowing their children would be expected to sex each other up. Besides, the Old Gods don't seem to produce religious zealots the way the Seven do. Lyanna might not have thought being a second wife to be ideal, but she might have preferred it for the sake of love and to escape a marriage to a man she didn't seem to have a high opinion of.

ETA:

And one question. Do you think that if Elia was able to have other children Rhaegar wouldn't have run with Lyanna?

If Elia was capable of giving Rhaegar a third child, I think he would have sucked it up and let any secret feelings for Lyanna remain just that. There was at least a year between Harrenhal, where we assume his interest in Lyanna started, and their disappearance. Since human pregnancies last nine months, I think Elia became pregnant with Aegon after the tourney. So even though Rhaegar was in a loveless marriage and might have loved Lyanna, he was apparently dedicated to fathering the three dragon heads on Elia until that became impossible.

Then again, who knows. He could have pursued a relationship with Lyanna anyway, reasoning with himself that his part in the prophecy was done and felt he deserved to indulge in some happiness.

[the_bloodravens_boss]

30 pages of this.....please...stop...

[SFDanny]

30 pages of this.....please...stop...

Actually, no, 30 threads on this, not pages. And if all you want to contribute to any thread is a snarky comment like this .... please ... stop ... It's truly not appreciated.

[corbon]

How about Aerys? Did he know about Rhaeghar and Lyanna. Was he supportive? I'd say no, because then it would be common knowledge. So why did he kill Brandon/Rickard over Brandon's actions, which weren't so unreasonable... of course Aerys was mad.

Not so unreasonable?

He rode up to the palace and demanded the crown prince come out and die. It doesn't get much more unreasonable than that.

Oh yes, we suspect we know the reason why, but that does not excuse the act, which is treason punishable by death, and a totally inappropriate method of attmpting restitution or resolution anyway.

How could Lyanna, still love or want to be with Rhaeghar after he dad and brother were killed? She was pregnant. Her suicide would make this more plausible. Her father, brother, and baby daddy all dead, because of her.

Most people aren't actually stupid enough to self-blame when other people have done moronically stupid things that have snowballed.

It like person A stole person B's Car. In response person B goes to person As house and starts waving a handgun around and making serious death threats. Person A was wrong, but person B's response was totally inappropriate and B is gonna get slammed by the law much harder than A.

Then make Person A the President, and see how very much worse person B gets slammed. Person B goes away for life - and thats not person As fault - they didn't force B to take out the handgun and they didn't force person B to make a totally inappropriate and incredibly stupid response.

[Jô Maltese]

It has probably been stressed before - I cannot get myself to read the 30 threads entirely - and I would bet for Tze, Apple Martini or Teal'C to have said it before me - but IMHO one key clue to the fact that Jon is NOT Eddard's son is:

1. (Davos, ACoK) "What do you make of this Ser Cortnay Penrose? - A stubborn man (...) Ser Cortnay will watch his father die before he would ever betray his trust."

2. (Catelyn, ACoK) Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs (...).

1. Cortnay's brief moral stance (alignment?) description very much matches Ed Stark's.

2. Edric is NOT Cortnay's son, but was entrusted to him by a close friend / brother (Renly). Ed acts like Cortnay, not like Roose. Therefore Jon is not Ed's son, but was entrusted to him by a close relationship.

Now, we are often told how much Jon looks like Ed, or a Stark in general - and how much Ed and Lyanna brotherly loved each other. So if he is not Ed's son, Jon has to be Lyanna's : .... + L =J

The 'R' is another story :read:

ETA: spelling

[The guy from the Vale]

It has probably been stressed before - I cannot get myself to read the 30 threads entirely - and I would bet for Tze, Apple Martini or Teal'C to have said it before me - but IMHO one key clue to the fact that Jon is NOT Eddard's son is:

1. Cortnay's brief moral stance (alignment?) description very much matches Ed Stark's.

2. Edric is NOT Cortany's son, but was entrusted to him by a close friend / brother (Renly). Ed acts like Cortnay, not like Roose. Therefore Jon is not Ed's son, but was entrusted to him by a close relationship.

Now, we are often told how much Jon looks like Ed, or a Stark in a general - and how much Ed and Lyanna brotherly loved each other.So if he is not Ed's son, Jon has to be Lyanna's : .... + L =J

The 'R' is another story :read:

I haven't seen this discussed in these threads, like, ever. So, good catch!

[Teal'c]

It has probably been stressed before - I cannot get myself to read the 30 threads entirely - and I would bet for Tze, Apple Martini or Teal'C to have said it before me - but IMHO one key clue to the fact that Jon is NOT Eddard's son is:

1. Cortnay's brief moral stance (alignment?) description very much matches Ed Stark's.

2. Edric is NOT Cortany's son, but was entrusted to him by a close friend / brother (Renly). Ed acts like Cortnay, not like Roose. Therefore Jon is not Ed's son, but was entrusted to him by a close relationship.

Now, we are often told how much Jon looks like Ed, or a Stark in a general - and how much Ed and Lyanna brotherly loved each other.So if he is not Ed's son, Jon has to be Lyanna's : .... + L =J

The 'R' is another story :read:

Jo you've got me in fast company there; I'm not sure I'm up to it, but thanks.

[Alia of the knife]

It has probably been stressed before - I cannot get myself to read the 30 threads entirely - and I would bet for Tze, Apple Martini or Teal'C to have said it before me - but IMHO one key clue to the fact that Jon is NOT Eddard's son is:

1. Cortnay's brief moral stance (alignment?) description very much matches Ed Stark's.

2. Edric is NOT Cortany's son, but was entrusted to him by a close friend / brother (Renly). Ed acts like Cortnay, not like Roose. Therefore Jon is not Ed's son, but was entrusted to him by a close relationship.

Now, we are often told how much Jon looks like Ed, or a Stark in a general - and how much Ed and Lyanna brotherly loved each other.So if he is not Ed's son, Jon has to be Lyanna's : .... + L =J

The 'R' is another story :read:

Thats a great point!

And sometimes it takes "fresh" eyes and viewpoints to "see"/catch these nuances.

Lately, I've had to really go back and examine the text from the standpoint of what I think is the Authors Intent:

- Why is a character written a certain way, and is this why I like this particular one over another?

- Why does the Author give certain attributes, i.e., "Wolfs Blood," (which for some mean either impulsiveness and irresponsibility, but that connotation can also indicate "danger" and a person who relies on innate instinct, rather than what they're told to believe, which can point to a deviation from conventional norms, such as never challenging authority.

- Do these attributes have more than one meaning, and with Martin, double entendres and ironies, are likely.

- Or as the point you made about parallels, and similarities of behaviors between characters indicating a hidden truth.

Ned and Jon/Cortnay and Edric/ Roose and Ramsey,

Arya/Lyanna reflection or "memory" of one another.

Dany/Aerys, and/or possibly even Rhaegar in terms of a reflection, or template about judgement.

I had to go back and use this "excercise" just because I found that I started having trouble filtering out fan-theory vs. what the Author actually may want to do with the story, lol.

So, when I have a question, I just ask myself: "Why did Martin write the character the way he did, and what does he want to indicate by writing, and presenting them in such a way?"

These forums are pure fun for speculation and theories, but sometimes, I think people can get a little too personally attached to being "right" when in the long run, only Martin knows.

[Jô Maltese]

These forums are pure fun for speculation and theories, but sometimes, I think people can get a little too personally attached to being "right" when in the long run, only Martin knows.

I couldn't agree more. :agree:

[Sinslash]

I still think that even if R+L=J were true, Jon would still be a bastard. Rhaegar's bastard this time, not Eddard's. I don't think Rhaegar meant for him to be king, but to be a companion for Aegon, who he thinks would be The Prince that was Promised. He didn't need to officially marry Lyanna, he just needs her to bear his third child.

[Lady Octarina]

I still think that even if R+L=J were true, Jon would still be a bastard. Rhaegar's bastard this time, not Eddard's. I don't think Rhaegar meant for him to be king, but to be a companion for Aegon, who he thinks would be The Prince that was Promised. He didn't need to officially marry Lyanna, he just needs her to bear his third child.

I used to think that way too until people on these threads showed me evidence supporting Lyanna and Rhaegar got married. We could go through all that annoying discussion on the Kingsguard at the ToJ for a few days, but let's try to change things a bit. I ask you: story-wise, what would be the point in Jon being still a bastard? What relevance would that have to his character? I'm not asking what Rhaegar wanted, what Lyanna would have accepted, none of that, let's just talk about books 6 and 7. What would change if Jon was Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's, besides making him angry and even more depressed? What would that add to how the story will unfold?

[valyrian_steel]

How does this evidence account for the death of Brandon Stark? Why did he go to KL if she went willingly? Why was he so angry with Rheaghar? I know he was a hothead. But that would have been his dad's job.

itachi snow, I'm convinced that Brandon knew very well his sister went willingly. He doesn't show up at King's Landing yelling for the release of his sister. He shows up calling for Rhaegar to come out and die. He is angry, I believe, because the Stark's house word and privileges have been dishonored by the actions of both Rhaegar and Lyanna, not because he fears for his sister's safety. Obviously Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, even though she expresses her reservations about this marriage to at least Ned (I can't see that she only told Ned her feelings given the "wild wolf" nature of Ned's description of her) and all of her three brothers were at Harrenhal to see her and Rhaegar interact. My guess based on this is, given all the examples we have of family feuds concerning the rights of Lords to make marriage contracts, and the fact that Brandon himself is bound to fulfill such a contract (quite possibly against his own inclinations) is that he rages against his sister as much as with Rhaegar.

As with anything there r two ways to look at Rhaegar-Lyanna...Lyanna's side and the Stark side. Even if Lyanna wanted to marry Rhaegar there were two things in her way: she had a betrothal that had to be set aside and she was underage so she needed her father to approve it. Regardless of what Lyanna wanted, those two things were enough to upset Brandon. Add that to the fact that Rhaegar deflowered her and I can see Brandon wanting to defend the honor of his house. Likely, at some point cooler heads would have prevailed and Rhaegar and Lyanna would have remained together as it is unlikely the Lord of Storm's End would have married a girl who was not a maiden. BUt cooler heads were replaced by the crazy head of the king who managed to turn a romantic squabble into a rebellion.

[SFDanny]

As with anything there r two ways to look at Rhaegar-Lyanna...Lyanna's side and the Stark side. Even if Lyanna wanted to marry Rhaegar there were two things in her way: she had a betrothal that had to be set aside and she was underage so she needed her father to approve it. Regardless of what Lyanna wanted, those two things were enough to upset Brandon. Add that to the fact that Rhaegar deflowered her and I can see Brandon wanting to defend the honor of his house. Likely, at some point cooler heads would have prevailed and Rhaegar and Lyanna would have remained together as it is unlikely the Lord of Storm's End would have married a girl who was not a maiden. BUt cooler heads were replaced by the crazy head of the king who managed to turn a romantic squabble into a rebellion.

I'd argue that regardless of her age, Lyanna was expected to marry whomever her father chose. The Blackfish/Hoster feud shows that, imo. Brandon and Rickard both have every right, according to custom, to be angry Lyanna doesn't fulfill her family duty and marry Robert. Of course, Lyanna has every right as a human being to not want to be married to a man she doesn't love and man she fully expects to show her no respect by being unfaithful. Martin always gives each side a motivation that can be understood by the reader, and to a certain degree with which we can empathize.

It's the same with Aerys. We think of him only as mad (and there is abundant evidence he was) but he wasn't stupid. He knew his foes wanted to get rid of him. He could see the web of alliances being woven around him by Rickard and his friends. He certainly felt that if he seized the opportunity Brandon's rage presented to him, he could snuff out the rebellion before it was born. He thought the manner of Rickard and Brandon's deaths would inspire fear and give any future rebels something to think about before following them. He obviously miscalculated, but if one sets aside the revulsion of his acts for a moment, he can be understood. He is not just a lunatic with long finger nails and sadistic pleasures. He is also a skilled player of the game of thrones.

[King Aemon I]

I used to think that way too until people on these threads showed me evidence supporting Lyanna and Rhaegar got married. We could go through all that annoying discussion on the Kingsguard at the ToJ for a few days, but let's try to change things a bit. I ask you: story-wise, what would be the point in Jon being still a bastard? What relevance would that have to his character? I'm not asking what Rhaegar wanted, what Lyanna would have accepted, none of that, let's just talk about books 6 and 7. What would change if Jon was Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's, besides making him angry and even more depressed? What would that add to how the story will unfold?

Really??? what would it add? What is the name of the series? A Song of Ice and Fire.. What dynasty do you think when you hear those words? "Ice and Fire" -> Stark and Targaryen. Jon would be the only person who was born of those two houses..

And also, yes he would be a bastard. But most of the dragons are. Born of sibbling "marriages". By the law of the old gods and the new, they were bastards. You may say "they were legitimised by the previous king" but both of Aegon's (the first Aegon) kids were bastards. And god knows Aegon's parents. Jon is no less of a dragon, if the theory is true. And I believe that Rhaegar's obbession about TPWP pushed him to Lyanna..

[kittenmittens]

I'd argue that regardless of her age, Lyanna was expected to marry whomever her father chose. The Blackfish/Hoster feud shows that, imo. Brandon and Rickard both have every right, according to custom, to be angry Lyanna doesn't fulfill her family duty and marry Robert. Of course, Lyanna has every right as a human being to not want to be married to a man she doesn't love and man she fully expects to show her no respect by being unfaithful. Martin always gives each side a motivation that can be understood by the reader, and to a certain degree with which we can empathize.

It's the same with Aerys. We think of him only as mad (and there is abundant evidence he was) but he wasn't stupid. He knew his foes wanted to get rid of him. He could see the web of alliances being woven around him by Rickard and his friends. He certainly felt that if he seized the opportunity Brandon's rage presented to him, he could snuff out the rebellion before it was born. He thought the manner of Rickard and Brandon's deaths would inspire fear and give any future rebels something to think about before following them. He obviously miscalculated, but if one sets aside the revulsion of his acts for a moment, he can be understood. He is not just a lunatic with long finger nails and sadistic pleasures. He is also a skilled player of the game of thrones.

Uh, no. He was just a lunatic.

[SFDanny]

Uh, no. He was just a lunatic.

Thank you for your elucidating insight.

[rmholt]

Uh, no. He was just a lunatic.

Thank you for your elucidating insight.

I actually think at the end this was true.