R+L=J v.30

[SFDanny]

But Ned could pass off Jon as younger than Robb at a very young age. However, Robb was sired at least two months after the begin of the war, while Ned met the fisherman's daughter at the very beginning of the war. So... while it's possible that Jon is the son of the fisherman's daughter, I think it makes very little sense from a multitude of angles.

Actually, no, it is not possible that Jon - the Jon Snow we all know - is the son of Ned and a fisherman's daughter conceived this early in the rebellion. Martin tells us that Jon is "eight or nine" months older than Daenerys, and we know she is born nine moons after the flight from King's Landing. Which of course puts Jon being born around th time of the sack or a month or so after. That puts Jon being conceived at least 3 to 4 months into the rebellion, a rebellion that last a year or more. So, unless this fisherman's daughter was pregnant for over a year before giving birth to Jon it is impossible.

[The Owl]

The Idea that the Martells would have been supportive of Lyanna being the other wife in a polygamist relationship kind of confuses me... I know that Valarians (and by extension the Targaryens) practiced polygamy, though I cant remember if any actual polygamist marriage has been seen since Ageon I and his sister/wives.... but I cannot remember if the Dornish held similar opinions on that matter... (if someone could point me in the right direction.)

[Lady Octarina]

The Idea that the Martells would have been supportive of Lyanna being the other wife in a polygamist relationship kind of confuses me... I know that Valarians (and by extension the Targaryens) practiced polygamy, though I cant remember if any actual polygamist marriage has been seen since Ageon I and his sister/wives.... but I cannot remember if the Dornish held similar opinions on that matter... (if someone could point me in the right direction.)

The Dornish don't practice polygamy in the strict sense of the word (though I'm not that sure that's because they don't like the idea, or simply because it is illegal for everyone but Targaryens), but they have nothing against taking lovers, even more than one at a time, breaking celibacy vows, bastards... They have a more "liberal" (forgive the anachronism) view on sex and everything related to it. The best example of that is Oberyn, who fathered daughters on five different women in short periods of time, is most certainly bisexual and has nothing against sharing a bed with more than one person at once. So, yeah, considering how they see things, I don't think it's that impossible they would have accepted Rhaegar taking a second wife.

Crackpot time: we're always discussing what exactly could be in for Elia in all of this (and I like Alia of the Knife's suggestion it's more a defense of her precarious health than anything), but the truth is we hardly know anything about her to be sure of what the bargain could be. Knowing the Dornish customs and the fact that she was around 20 (?) when she married Rhaegar, I'd say it's more than likely that she had someone back in Dorne before that political bond was forged. We know they respected but were not in love with each other, so what if that was the deal? Elia accepted to share the stage with Lyanna and Rhaegar would allow her to spend most of her time in Dorne to take care of her health (or using that as an excuse) all the while being discrete in her meetings with whoever her lover was? What happens in Dorne stays in Dorne...

Also, you asked if there has been any polygamist marriages since Aegon and his sisters... isn't that the question to which GRRM answered there might have been, he had to look it up or something?

[corbon]

though I cant remember if any actual polygamist marriage has been seen since Ageon I and his sister/wives.... but I cannot remember if the Dornish held similar opinions on that matter... (if someone could point me in the right direction.)

Definitely Maegor I, and his wives were from various houses (including a Jeyne Westerling!)

GRRM explicitly said that there may be more, he'd have to look it up.

I take that to mean

i) there may be more but he can't remember because any other actual polygamous marriages weren't in themselves important) and

ii) polygamy has never been legally taken off the table, so Rhaegar could have legally revived an unused custom.

I did a detailed count for another poster who insists that there have never been any others since Maegor, despite GRRM's 'word of god' and I found IIRC 7 Targaryen males who were kings or king's (legitimate) sons, whose marriage situation was simply never mentioned at all (most of whom had legitimate kids), as well as several more another generation removed from the crown. So even if you take every marriage mentioned not explicitly polygamous to have been monogamous, there are still plenty of spaces for later ploygamous Targ marriages.

[rmholt]

Definitely Maegor I, and his wives were from various houses (including a Jeyne Westerling!)

GRRM explicitly said that there may be more, he'd have to look it up.

I take that to mean

i) there may be more but he can't remember because any other actual polygamous marriages weren't in themselves important) and

ii) polygamy has never been legally taken off the table, so Rhaegar could have legally revived an unused custom.

He he what I take from this is that if GRRM has to look it up on his index cards, I wont bother to think about it for now.

[corbon]

He he what I take from this is that if GRRM has to look it up on his index cards, I wont bother to think about it for now.

If its possible, but GRRM has to look it up, it means he's not sure that there haven't been some recent ones. If it had been legally taken off the table for Rhaegar, then he would be sure there weren't any recent ones.

[Arionis]

Crackpot time: we're always discussing what exactly could be in for Elia in all of this (and I like Alia of the Knife's suggestion it's more a defense of her precarious health than anything), but the truth is we hardly know anything about her to be sure of what the bargain could be. Knowing the Dornish customs and the fact that she was around 20 (?) when she married Rhaegar, I'd say it's more than likely that she had someone back in Dorne before that political bond was forged. We know they respected but were not in love with each other, so what if that was the deal? Elia accepted to share the stage with Lyanna and Rhaegar would allow her to spend most of her time in Dorne to take care of her health (or using that as an excuse) all the while being discrete in her meetings with whoever her lover was? What happens in Dorne stays in Dorne...

Very interesting point. You got me thinking: what if the lover in question was Arthur Dayne? And what if Rhaegar-Elia marriage was a well-hidden open marriage, so Rhaegar would be fine with Elia having an affair with Arthur and Elia would be fine with Rhaegar and Lyanna? The royal marriage was for duty: they respected (and, IMO, were very fond of) each other, but there wasn't love.

I don't know, it's very crackpot and in my theory there are a lot of holes.

[SteelAndSnow]

^ Maybe. But I don't think Arthur Dayne would want to have an affair with Elia or anybody else really. Vows and all. The Kingsguard wasn't what it has become now, these guys took their vows seriously

[Arionis]

^ Maybe. But I don't think Arthur Dayne would want to have an affair with Elia or anybody else really. Vows and all. The Kingsguard wasn't what it has become now, these guys took their vows seriously

I'm not so sure. In the last GRRM's interview was sligthly hinted that Arthur, maybe, wasn't the super-duper perfect knight after all.

I thought about him because he was probably fostered in the Water Gardens the same time Elia was there. Strong friendship turned romance?

Like I said, it's very crackpot and I don't really buy it either. But Lady Octarina thought was very interesting and it deserves to be developped.

[Milcov]

^ Maybe. But I don't think Arthur Dayne would want to have an affair with Elia or anybody else really. Vows and all. The Kingsguard wasn't what it has become now, these guys took their vows seriously

Well Barristan said it was an open secret within the Kingsguard that Lewyn Martell had a paramour, and with Arthur being Dornish I can't see there being a problem with him having a lover. Whether that lover was a Princess of Dorne and soon to be Queen is unlikely, but Elia having a lover back in Dorne seems very reasonable.

[Alia of the knife]

From ADwD, a conversation between Selmy and Dany:

Selmy: "And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?"

"Her duty." The word felt cold upon her tongue. "You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love, or duty?"

The old Knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the Prince was very fond of her."

Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.

That statement confirmed more to me than anything that there was more than enough personal motive for Rhaegar to have done what he did, and later Selmy confirming Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna..."

As I said, I'm sure they had a congenial relationship, he respected her person, and until Lyanna, probably would have respected their marriage, but there's fondness, and then theres love.

I don't doubt at all that Rhaegar did indeed marry Lyanna, most likely first thing, and for awhile would have found himself married to both women, and probably for the Targaryens, legally, but it's the long term that I doubt, had things turned out differently.

(I also wonder if as Crown Prince this "right" was an option for him, or if it was only a King who could do this, and he was not King- yet).

I think if Rhaegar is this noble, paragon of virtue, the right and honest thing to do is NOT leave any ambiguity about the status of both women.

No matter how liberal Dornish culture is, (and I just take that to mean they aren't the hyprocrites that the rest of Westerosi is when it comes to love), I don't think they are that wide open, or wouldn't honor their marrage vows in the case of love, nor in a love relationship be in anyway okay with infidelity.

The Viper is a different animal, and I don't think should be used as a template for the rest of the culture, as I think in the matter of love, a Dornishman/woman would be the FIRST to react in jealousy, and fight to keep their lover.

In the case of Elia, I don't think that polygamy is fair to her.

Yes, she gets to be Queen, and her son will be KIng, but as I said, more than likely Aegon would most likely be fostered out to Doran and gone to Dorne for the better part of his life anyway, Rhaeny would be sent to her betrothed's family, so Elia just becomes this "shadow Queen" in the wake of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship?

And as Varys says, power lies where people thinks it lies, so given that Lyanna is Rhaegars "real" wife, the Court would be trying to curry favor with her.

(See Madame de Montespan and the Sun King of France, as well as Barbara Villiers and Charles the II of England).

Being "Queen" in that type of arrangement guarentees nothing in terms of real influence, or power least of all dealing with a secondary queen, rather than just the official paramour, which Lyanna as the equivelant of a Dukes daughter, would be too highborn for anyway.

Also, Elia should be free to follow her heart, and I wouldn't find it all surprising to find out she had a lover in Dorne, and who knows, as goes the Viper, perhaps so goes Elia and her lover was another woman.

I suppose it's possible she might agree to polygamy for the good of Dorne and Westeros to keep the peace in the case of real animosity, but her price might be that she gets to go back there, be with her family, be with a lover, and may have actually seen Lyanna as a one-way ticket off that crazy train.

Unfortunately, Aerys struck, and she didn't have a chance.

[Maxpey]

I am wondering if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna; rather, he simply told Elia that he was in love with Lyanna and he asked Elia's permission to take her as his lover, which she granted. This would explain why the Martell brothers would be upset with Rhaegar for "dishonoring" Elia.

Also, if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna, she would assume that any children that Rhaegar had with Lyanna would be bastards and not pose such a threat to Aegon's claim.

[Alia of the knife]

I am wondering if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna; rather, he simply told Elia that he was in love with Lyanna and he asked Elia's permission to take her as his lover, which she granted. This would explain why the Martell brothers would be upset with Rhaegar for "dishonoring" Elia.

Also, if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna, she would assume that any children that Rhaegar had with Lyanna would be bastards and not pose such a threat to Aegon's claim.

Thats a good point.

And I also wonder about the whole hostage thing.

I go back to that, because Aerys and Elia lived with one another, and while I could see him taking her hostage initially assuming that she would be upset, she could have taken that as an opportunity to set things right and tell Aerys that there was no need to take her hostage, that Dorne would remain loyal- she could have certainly communicated that to her Uncle in the KG, who then could relay that back to Doran and Oberyn, if she was truly okay with what Rhaegar did.

She wouldn't even have to go into the prophesy thing if she feared the Lords and Court would get wind of it and think Rhaegar as mad as Aerys. She could have continued to use her health as an excuse, saying she not only was okay with Rhaegar trying to get another spare for the heir to preserve the succession, but she even approved of it.

But, something happened that inclined Aerys to hold her, either she was openly showing her outrage and disapproval, and perhaps was actually making to leave and didn't hide it, trying to take the children with her.

Misc. Questions:

Was Aerys holding her hostage before, or after Rhaegar came back up from the South?

Would Aerys have the guts to hold her hostage in Rhaegars face?

I know some have argued Aerys did that to manipulate Rhaegar into coming back and fighting, but I don't think Rhaegar needed that manipulation as it was in his best interests to defeat the rebels too if he was going to preserve Targaryen supremecy.

And Rhaegar didn't even sound particularly threatened either as per his conversation with Jaimie about how his royal Father feared Tywin more than "our Cousin Robert."

So, I'm wondering if there was some conversation that went down that Elia didn't like, and after Rhaegar departed to the Trident, she made to leave, and then Aerys took her hostage?

[valyrian_steel]

Ok, I just read the new interview and there's some good tidbits. Seems like this mystery won't be solved until the last book. :tantrum: I'm not surprised, but come on! The cat's out of the bag. The cast has all but confirmed it. The reveal better be so mind blowing I lose my eyesight or something. I was hoping Bran would see something relevant in TWOW.

We don't know if Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna on impulse tho. If he fell in love with her at Harrenhal, then he let one or two years go by before he acted on it. And he somehow transported her across the country with no one none the wiser. Sounds like some planning went into that disappearing act.

Oberyn's lack of hate toward Rhaegar says a lot I think. He dearly loved his sister and was devastated with her murder yet not once did he speak ill of Rhaegar. And Oberyn is a blunt person, he accuses Tywin of ordering the murder of Elia and her kids to Tyrion's face and doesn't give a damn that word could get around. I don't think the Martells were in on Rhaegar's plan, but I do believe Elia kept contact with them and in the barest way possible let them know she was aware of the elopement.

Definitely need another POV on the events of Harrenhal. If Rhaegar and many of the lords at the Harrenhal tourney were planning a coup, u think having King Aerys there decided things. (I believe one of the purposes of The Mystery Knight is to show that things like this actually did happen) What I havent seen is why Rhaegar changed his plans. Did he decide he couldnt over throw his father? Did Aerys bring a large enough escort with him to stop him? (after Duskindale Aerys didnt travel much and he may have substantially increased his security when he did) Were plans simply post-phoned? If they were going to act they certainly wouldnt have had a better chance. Was Rhaegar loyal all a long and this was only speculation?

Similarly, the only man living who was at TofJ is Howland Reed so I guess we can expect his POV at some point.

Possible ADWD spoiler:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Ned Stark apparently gave his word to Lord Godric Borrell's father that he never came or sought passage through the Sweetsister. Isn't this a factor in favor of Jon Snow being the son of a fisherman's daughter? Ned hold's his vows sacred and he gave Godric's father his word thus he kept his word by not telling anyone the true mother of Jon.

This also goes along the lines of GRRM writing tendencies. Seemingly insignificant yet very important in the large scale nonetheless.

According to the story related to Davos, Lord Borrell knew Areys had ordered the capture of Ned and Robert and had to decide whether he would hold him or let him go. When he decided to release Ned, the promise was that if Ned and the rebels lost, he would never tell a soul that Borrell had let him go. Borrell was obviously sympathetic to the rebellion but not to the point of open support. He was just covering his butt.

[Lady Octarina]

And I also wonder about the whole hostage thing.

I go back to that, because Aerys and Elia lived with one another, and while I could see him taking her hostage initially assuming that she would be upset, she could have taken that as an opportunity to set things right and tell Aerys that there was no need to take her hostage, that Dorne would remain loyal- she could have certainly communicated that to her Uncle in the KG, who then could relay that back to Doran and Oberyn, if she was truly okay with what Rhaegar did.

She wouldn't even have to go into the prophesy thing if she feared the Lords and Court would get wind of it and think Rhaegar as mad as Aerys. She could have continued to use her health as an excuse, saying she not only was okay with Rhaegar trying to get another spare for the heir to preserve the succession, but she even approved of it.

I don't think anything she said would have been enough to convince Aerys - the man was paranoid, and what if he chose to believe Dorne was aligned with Rhaegar in a planned coup? Whether or not that was true, Elia would be at his mercy anyway.

Whatever her view on Rhaegar's actions was, though, I'm sure her brothers were aware of it through Lewyn and respected her opinions when making their decisions.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

I am wondering if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna; rather, he simply told Elia that he was in love with Lyanna and he asked Elia's permission to take her as his lover, which she granted. This would explain why the Martell brothers would be upset with Rhaegar for "dishonoring" Elia.

Also, if Rhaegar never told Elia he planned on marrying Lyanna, she would assume that any children that Rhaegar had with Lyanna would be bastards and not pose such a threat to Aegon's claim.

Wouldn't the Martell brothers have been upset regardless? Seems like a case of over-the-top brother protectiveness to me. Brandon and Oberyn were both hot-headed as hell. Even if Lyanna or Elia would have been able to tell their brothers what was going on, would they have listened? Possibly Doran, but not the gallant fool or the Red Viper.

[Lady Octarina]

Wouldn't the Martell brothers have been upset regardless? Seems like a case of over-the-top brother protectiveness to me. Brandon and Oberyn were both hot-headed as hell. Even if Lyanna or Elia would have been able to tell their brothers what was going on, would they have listened? Possibly Doran, but not the gallant fool or the Red Viper.

I think Dorne's case is different. They actually see women as human beings, they listen to them, they even let them rule! So, yes, I think Oberyn and Doran probably listened to whatever Elia was able to communicate to them through all that chaos, and that it wasn't simply Doran's carefulness that stopped them from acting sooner in the war (btw, was Doran already Lord of Sunspear during the rebellion, or was it still his mother?). Winterfell is another story, one we're more than acquainted with throughout the books. Where the Martells would probably listen to their sister, the Starks would still go and defend "Lyanna's honor".

[The guy from the Vale]

I think Dorne's case is different. They actually see women as human beings, they listen to them, they even let them rule! So, yes, I think Oberyn and Doran probably listened to whatever Elia was able to communicate to them through all that chaos, and that it wasn't simply Doran's carefulness that stopped them from acting sooner in the war (btw, was Doran already Lord of Sunspear during the rebellion, or was it still his mother?). Winterfell is another story, one we're more than acquainted with throughout the books. Where the Martells would probably listen to their sister, the Starks would still go and defend "Lyanna's honor".

As far as I know, Doran's mother died soon after the war, so technically she was still the ruler. However, it seems to me that he was already quite involved in the Dornish rule at the time, so far that he might have taken over once his mother became too sickly.

[Alia of the knife]

I think when it comes to Brandon, the North and the dynamics between men and women, there isn't too much information yet.

Martin will probably flesh that out in the next D&E installment, "She Wolves of Winterfell."

As I've speculated before, Rickards refusal to allow Lyanna to carry a sword might actually have been a deviation from the culture of the North, because he didn't want Lyanna to possibly "scare" off, or appear unsuitable to the fancy Southron Lords and Ladies.

In harsher climates many times, you need "all hands on deck" to survive that climate, including children, see also the Mormonts.

Brandon was not head of his House, so it was not his place to go and demand justice for his House- as long as Rickard was still alive and as Head of House Stark, Brandon could not usurp that.

While the honor of the House was most definitely a factor, I think a good part of Brandons reaction was an emotional one. There is nothing to suggest that Brandon didn't love Lyanna, and while he was a player and a bit of a hypocrite, I remember the scene from the TV show, though this wasn't in the book either, where Joffrey remarks of the Starks and the North, that "they're weak because they put too much value on their women."

And Hoster Tully called Brandon a gallant fool, clues suggesting he wanted to save his sister, but he was foolish in the way he tried to do it.

Warriors do still have emotional reactions, even when they are trained against it

On Brandons ways with women.

It's probably also fair to remember that Brandon wasn't exactly "forcing" these women either. He was handsome, and I think probably smart and charasmatic, as Cersei said, he was the one born to lead, and many Fathers were just as ambitious to snag Brandon. The fact that he didn't turn these women away when perhaps he should have, is another story.

Again, with Dornish culure, while they are a little more relaxed about certain things, having female rulers doesn't necessarily change the dynamics between men and women. If you look at real history, having Queens didn't change the order of the culture, those things didn't change until after many of Aristocracies fell, and different political systems came into play, but even then, it took awhile. All that may indicate is that simply they had more liberal, or actually more structured inheritance rules. The legitimate first born is Heir, no matter the gender- end of story, no confusion.

And, there is also a difference between Royner traditions and Dorne, as well as a difference between what the priveledged Martell women can do, and the average Dornish woman can do.

I think it's fair to say the Dornish are not hypocrites, and they'd sit someones open parmour at a high table with a "Lady," even if that "Lady" is outraged at being seated next to him/her, but said "Lady" is also doing half the table on the sly, though outwardly, she is the model of proper behavior.

I think thats the difference between Dorne and the rest of Westeros.

[rmholt]

Another way Dorne is different is that the Targaryens conquered the other 6 kingdoms and tried once, and failed to ally with Dorne by marriage. They finally managed to join the houses by marriage which says two things IMHO.

First, the Dorne kingdom is more on the same level as the Targs. They are more allies than subjects

Second, they may be closer to Targs because of the marriage ties.