Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[Black Crow]

Think wider. The Iron throne would give him control over just how much resources go into the NW. It would give him the control over the armies and he could fight the Others better with all that control. I think he'd do it for this cause.

Also, he almost accepted Winterfell, but he changed his mind because he wouldn't give up the old Gods. Sitting on the Iron throne doesn't mean renouncing his gods...

On the contrary, thinking wider means getting away from the popular notion that he's the son of Rhaegar and about to rise again as Azor Ahai, and instead seeing him embrace his Stark heritage. Whatever else Jon might be, he is of the North which is where, as it was made very clear right at the beginning, the Starks belong. He is going to be the King of Winter not Azor Ahai.

[The WarHammer]

On the contrary, thinking wider means getting away from the popular notion that he's the son of Rhaegar and about to rise again as Azor Ahai, and instead seeing him embrace his Stark heritage. Whatever else Jon might be, he is of the North which is where, as it was made very clear right at the beginning, the Starks belong. He is going to be the King of Winter not Azor Ahai.

I like what your saying adding to that. He'll be the king of winter from leading the fight against the Others.

But at the same time he becomes "King of Winter" (which i think will be mostly in the north) Dany will land in Westeros as Aegon reborn

Long story short Jon becomes the king who kneeled again

[alienarea]

I like what your saying adding to that. He'll be the king of winter from leading the fight against the Others.

But at the same time he becomes "King of Winter" (which i think will be mostly in the north) Dany will land in Westeros as Aegon reborn

Long story short Jon becomes the king who kneeled again

Maybe Daenerys becomes the Queen who kneeled?

[Julian Rayne]

Does anyone else think that Bloodraven is a sort of failed Azor-Ahai or almost Azor-Ahai? I mean like the Count Fenring to Jon's Paul Atreides.

[Black Crow]

GRRM has admitted (in his recent Barcelona interview) that there is a link between the Children and the Others, which will be explored at a later time - presumably in the Winds of Winter. Assuming that they are enemies is likely to be a big mistake. Jon belongs to the old gods, not to the red pyromaniacs and while Bloodraven is thought of as a Targaryen bastard, the reason why he's sitting on that weirwood chair is because he's really a Blackwood.

[dreamcatcher]

On the contrary, thinking wider means getting away from the popular notion that he's the son of Rhaegar and about to rise again as Azor Ahai, and instead seeing him embrace his Stark heritage. Whatever else Jon might be, he is of the North which is where, as it was made very clear right at the beginning, the Starks belong. He is going to be the King of Winter not Azor Ahai.

Frankly I think that's stretching it. Kings of Winter and all that from the Heresy thread, I think you're looking too much into things.

[aryagonnakill]

GRRM has admitted (in his recent Barcelona interview) that there is a link between the Children and the Others, which will be explored at a later time - presumably in the Winds of Winter. Assuming that they are enemies is likely to be a big mistake. Jon belongs to the old gods, not to the red pyromaniacs and while Bloodraven is thought of as a Targaryen bastard, the reason why he's sitting on that weirwood chair is because he's really a Blackwood.

Do you know if this interview is anywhere online?

[Black Crow]

Its in the SSMs on this website, but I'm rubbish at searching.

[bemused]

Lots of situations could be described as a link , but since they joined with men in opposing the Others ( and if many of the CoTF also died at the Others' coming) , surely they must be adversaries of some description ?

Whether born of fire magic or ice magic , I can't see the reanimation of corpses as something to be desired. I hope Jon has nothing to do with either one of them.;)

[Black Crow]

Lots of situations could be described as a link , but since they joined with men in opposing the Others ( and if many of the CoTF also died at the Others' coming) , surely they must be adversaries of some description ?

Would you care to elaborate on this joining with men in opposing the Others and many of the children dying - because they're actually conspicuous by their absence during the Long Night, and Bran remembers only that they "saved" the Last Hero when he was on the run.

[bemused]

I got that idea from the wiki of ice and fire.. I never bother looking in Wikipedia for info for all the obvious reasons.. I thought "ours " would be more trustworthy. I did note that there was no book or page reference to the bit about Both men and CoTF dying in great number , but thought that it might have come from a Q&A sometime...That is , however ,why I said "if"..;)

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Children_of_the_Forest

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_of_the_First_Men_and_the_Children_of_the_Forest

Of course , I take the raising of the Wall to keep the Others out at face value ... and to me , that is joining with men in opposition , regardless of who was doing most of the fighting and when..and providing the NW with the weapons most deadly against the Others is also an act of opposition.

As for King of Winter.. I agree ( perhaps, or to a point )... I think Azor Ahai is most likely a long distance adaptation of The Last Hero and /or TPTWP.. in other words , a bastardization :D or maybe even an outright crock.

I think the north needs autonomy ... in winter , particularly. How to bring the people through, while keeping the Others in check , routing them , or perhaps even destroying them is quite enough to be getting on with, without dealing with all the politics of the south. It would be better for someone else with more knowledge and experience of the south to deal with that ( which also amounts to a full plate ) ..but the rulers of North and South need to be able to deal amicably with each other for the common good. I also think there is some magical quotient in the Stark bloodline that makes Jon ideal for this role. ( But if you mean a monarch in league with the Others, you just lost me.)

Now, possums.. I hate to be risque .. but if the Starks are that important ..and if this winter is likely to last any length of time... the Starks really need some able progenitors, as of right now... Sooner would have been better... ( Ah, poor Jon. It's a tough job , but somebody's got to do it.) A long, hard winter ( No, I wasn't going there) is very depleting to populations , and nobles are not exempt... It seems a nigh impossible role for Bran ; Rickon and Arya are both still too young , while Sansa is least aware of her inner Stark and may be encumbered by her situation for a while yet. Mind you, there's still the wandering Uncle Benjen ( who may be up for the task...or not ). In any case, 2 men on the job wouldn't go amiss .. just for insurance.

[TheCurio]

Would you care to elaborate on this joining with men in opposing the Others and many of the children dying - because they're actually conspicuous by their absence during the Long Night, and Bran remembers only that they "saved" the Last Hero when he was on the run.

The story told by Old Nan to Bran in the first book:

"They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins..."

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost..."

They were hiding underground or on the trees. Remember how the two weirwoods ward the entrance to their barrow from the Others and the wights where Bloodraven is, living of mushrooms and blind fish. They could survive well enough out of reach of the Others, minding their own business. There was also an animosity between the Children of the Forest and the First Men before the last hero ventured to make peace and ask for their help, so it is not surprising they have not rushed to save the humans.

[Black Crow]

Yes, but the first bit has now been flatly contradicted by GRRM's statement that they're NOT dead, and as I said the Children are conspicuous by their absence when Winter comes. We know of course that they actually went down their rabbit holes to ride it out, but that's a very long way removed from being allied with the First Men against the Others. The story has got a lot darker and more ambiguous since Old Nan told her tales way back in AGoT

[bemused]

Ummm..we know now that 60 ( active ) CoTF went down into one rabbit hole / sanctuary to ride it out / try to survive. ( C'mon , BC , be fair ;)) ... Maybe there're more...but not that we've seen.

Even if there were a hundred such enclaves scattered about , that wouldn't amount to much in the way of "children power ".

Bran notes , somewhere ,in reference to another of Old Nan's stories that ,in places ,she always used the exact same words (one device used when histories are passed down in oral tradition ) ..Perhaps Old Nan's story has lost a little through centuries of being repeated and passed on from one generation to another, and should be spoken , " They were cold things and dead things.." ( Others and wights)..

In her ".. (they ) hated...... every creature with hot blood in it's veins.." , I feel some kind of resonance with Gilly's "They come for the life.".. If there's truth in either , well , the CoTF are alive and warm blooded.. I don't think they'd be somehow excepted.

:D Anyway , I always thought Old Nan's tales were dark and somewhat ambiguous.

Dang! This is turning into more than I intended , and I do want to bring it back to how it pertains to Jon, but..

So, GRRM has said that magic is the cause/ reason for the seasonal imbalance , and that there is a link between the Children and the Others. We don't know what the link is, but it may also have to do with magic ..something gone wrong, out of control .. or something went far more right than was expected ... unintended consequences ? or who knows what...

We have seen the CoTF try a magical solution to the encroachment of Men ( The Hammer ..Stepstones) .Maybe the Others emerged out of some other attempt ( intentionally or not ).. Bran thinks the CoTF are awfully accepting of their fate , and that Men would be filled with rage and fight. But the Children did fight their fate , for an awfully long time ,using everything they had , including powerful magic ... Sadly ,maybe even by the time the pact was made , being very slow to reproduce , their population had already reached it's tipping point .

That they were conspicuously absent as Winter set in is not a surprise ..they'd been pretty conspiuously absent for a very long time... They may have been as surprised ( or nearly so ) as men by the appearance of the Others .Complicating matters , they ( the children ) were not even believed to exist by most men.Difficult to form open alliances with people who think you're extinct , or a figment of the imagination. That doesn't mean you can't act from behind the scenes.

I'm feeling the Kings of Winter ( Starks) carry some magical component in their blood that helps to work as an antidote to the Others.( In one way or another )

Yes, I think the Others are misunderstood , or not understood at all. But when they are understood , I don't think they'll pose any less of a threat.

Jon is the perfect candidate to lead the fight against them .

[TheCurio]

Yes, but the first bit has now been flatly contradicted by GRRM's statement that they're NOT dead, and as I said the Children are conspicuous by their absence when Winter comes. We know of course that they actually went down their rabbit holes to ride it out, but that's a very long way removed from being allied with the First Men against the Others. The story has got a lot darker and more ambiguous since Old Nan told her tales way back in AGoT

I see where you are going, I am not convinced that the Long Winter and the Others were created/conjured forth in a bitter and last ditch effort to get rid of the humans.

Anyway we won't know anything certain until the next book is published or GRRM spills the beans.

An other thought, related to R'hllor, the tale of Azor Ahai could be a warning twisted into a prophecy by the zealous red priests, a sword fueled by the souls of the ones it slays and we are not told how exactly this "Hero" saved the day.

[bemused]

Well , they might have been.. ( GRRM will tell us eventually ) But if so , I'm thinking , for the CoTF, that it may be akin to desperately trying to do damage control after you've said or done the wrong thing ...without thinking carefully enough about what the consequences will be.

... " Do not seek to call him back " ( or words to that effect ) ... Have they called something back from somewhere ( not necessarily death ) that was better left alone ?

This could make a big difference to what part the Starks are meant to play.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Man some of these theories you all have come up with are amazing. I really didn't want to read this thread because if one of you turns out to be right it will be anti-climatic reading it in WOW. But Martin has taken too long so I couldn't help it!!!!

[Mace Cooterian]

Man some of these theories you all have come up with are amazing. I really didn't want to read this thread because if one of you turns out to be right it will be anti-climatic reading it in WOW. But Martin has taken too long so I couldn't help it!!!!

@WhiteRabbit. You have about 2 years (give or take a few months) to wait for TWOW. Might as well make use of the time and read some of these threads from front to back; or, if you have not already go back and do a re-read. A third option again, if you have not already, get the three Dunk & Egg novellas. I highly recommend the D&E's if you haven't. If you are a quick reader, you'll burn through these in about 3 to 4 weeks.

[Crono.gr]

It would be a great plot twist if Azor Azai isn't Jon Snow but someone else. Podric Payne?:S

[TheWhiteRabbit]

@WhiteRabbit. You have about 2 years (give or take a few months) to wait for TWOW. Might as well make use of the time and read some of these threads from front to back; or, if you have not already go back and do a re-read. A third option again, if you have not already, get the three Dunk & Egg novellas. I highly recommend the D&E's if you haven't. If you are a quick reader, you'll burn through these in about 3 to 4 weeks.

I'm really really hoping we get TWOW sometime in 2014--before December! I'd love to read everything here but again I don't want to set myself up to be underwhelmed when the actual book comes out. But thank you for reminding me about D&E. I'm going to get my copy right now!

EDIT: I'm trying to find it on iTunes for my iPad but all I see is the audiobook. Dang!