Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree Jon's body is dead, may be warging, may be just killing time, but his death is going to require a Kiss from Mel to bring him back. As far as the AA resurrection, the original had to kill his wife with his sword to animate it. Mel is never spoken of affectionately by Jon, and I doubt he would have to think too awful long or hard about plunging a flaming sword through her crazy chest if it came to that. If AA's gifts came from the quality of the sacrifices he had to make, Jon is going to have to kill someone a bit more important to him than Mel to get Longclaw warm and glowing. But the question is who?

...I'm thinking Wun Wun.

Just kidding.

Yeah that's what i think, Jon will have to kill someone, probably Val or Mel, I hope not Ghost. And I think there is definitely something frozen inside the Wall no one knows about, whatever is giving the wall its power and whatever keeps cold hands on the northern side of it. Maybe a dragon maybe the first white walker, or the father of the white walkers or something. Jon is going to need the power of that being to come back, so yes I def think his body will be buried in the wall while is a warg in ghost and goes to see bran. And bran is about to start messaging people all over. he is already in the crows with stannis and theon. He was def the one talking in the crows in the new then chapter from tWOW.

[aryagonnakill]

Yeah that's what i think, Jon will have to kill someone, probably Val or Mel, I hope not Ghost. And I think there is definitely something frozen inside the Wall no one knows about, whatever is giving the wall its power and whatever keeps cold hands on the northern side of it. Maybe a dragon maybe the first white walker, or the father of the white walkers or something. Jon is going to need the power of that being to come back, so yes I def think his body will be buried in the wall while is a warg in ghost and goes to see bran. And bran is about to start messaging people all over. he is already in the crows with stannis and theon. He was def the one talking in the crows in the new then chapter from tWOW.

Dany fits AAR completely Jon does not have to do any of that.

[mushroomshirt]

Jon warged into Mormont's crow!

But seriously, I hope there isn't an all-too-obvious 'warging solution' for Jon in TWoW. Poor plot device for such a monumental character and his situation IMO. It's just too... corn, corn!

I think there will definitely be Warging involved, but I agree it would be better if there were not such a Deus Ex Machina.

The reason I think there will be warging comes from Mel's POV chapter in Dance...

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

[Urien the Ragged]

I don't think that's even possible. We know warging isn't easy, the animals fight back, and a human being is going to fight even harder. And Robb is probably like Jon, he wargs GW sometimes but he doesn't know exactly what he is and what he is doing. He is far from being a trained warg. So, no, I really don't think it happeend that way.

since Robb isn't a POV, we have no idea about his warging abilities. for all we know, he's the most powerful one.

[Urien the Ragged]

I dunno about this, its possible i suppose but you keep saying that Raynald Westerling acted 'strangely' - I didnt read it this way, it seemed to me quite normal that being outnumbered and unable to see what was happening inside the Castle (he was with Grey Wind at the kennels/stables - outside anyway) he surrendered thinking no one was going to be killed. Then when the Freys went to kill Grey Wind, Raynald realised that they would probably be killing Robb too and tried to help in the only way he could, being unarmed now - GW never disliked Raynald like he did his mother and uncle so Raynald must have been loyal to robb and not surrendering out of cowardice or treachery or anything - interestingly Raynald was there to see robbs will - all the other signitaries are still alive arnt they? Mallister, Greatjon and Edmure as prisoners, Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont headed North and Rs body was never found...

Raynald had to have known what was going on as soon as he surrendered. He knew that there was some sort of murdering/coup going on, why else would this have happened? He also had only a tenuous connection to Robb, i doubt he was willing to die so that his wolf might have a chance at living.

[Jambottle Jeebus]

Love this theory. Totally fits. The vision of him going from man to wolf to man. His spirit may visit the crypts at Winterfell too, so this is the vision of him surrounded by skulls... the skulls are those of other Kings in the North. Meaning that Jon becomes King in the North, of all the North both sides of the Wall... which would be awesome.

Mel said Patchface was surrounded by skulls too at some point in one of the books (correct me if im wrong), so i doubt what u said about the skulls = winterfell crypt

Also, am i the only one the thinks Benjen is coldhands?! ( Bran never sees his face, its always covered by a big ass scarf if i remember correctly)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dany fits AAR completely Jon does not have to do any of that.

Yeah I considered it was Dany, but then why would Mel be having all those visions of Jon?

dany is just destined to be the fire proof queen of the Earth, she has no combat training, she doesn't even have sword. AAR has to be Jon. he was born amidst salt and smoke at Sunspear, and he is the trueborn heir of the Targaryens. it is def him!

[JMJ]

Lots of posts have alluded to this, but I don't think it's been explicitly stated. Why has Mel all of a sudden taken such an interest in Jon? Is it just because she keeps seeing him in her flames? Or beyond that, are we to imply she has concluded he is the true AAR? I ask because I think what you conclude from this has real impact on how you think the Stabbing at the Wall will resolve.

I still don't think Mel has the ability to resurrect Jon, and I don't think he is skilled enough to warg into a human. Warging into Ghost or just surviving via coma seem most likely to me still.

[aryagonnakill]

I just made the connected today that ghost was stabbed by the eagles talon between the shoulder blades just as Jon was stabbed between the shoulder blades.

Yeah I considered it was Dany, but then why would Mel be having all those visions of Jon?

dany is just destined to be the fire proof queen of the Earth, she has no combat training, she doesn't even have sword. AAR has to be Jon. he was born amidst salt and smoke at Sunspear, and he is the trueborn heir of the Targaryens. it is def him!

I recently took a different view of the prophecy, that its a kind of telephone game that has been distorted a lot over time. Picture this, Rhllor sends a vision to someone about AAR who is gonna make a prophecy. To me it seems perfectly reasonable for a fire god to refer to a dragon as a sword. If you can accept Drogon being lightbringer then Dany fits everything. She woke dragons from stone, pulled lightbringer from fire, lightbringer gives off heat, glows, and emits fire when used in anger, born amidst salt and smoke on dragonstone, and dany first puts the dragon eggs on the brazier, then in a regular fire, then in the fire with her husband and love of her life as the sacrifice=nisa nisa

[MtnLion]

We know that Rhaegar, upon reading that prophecy, put down his books and harp to learn to become a warrior. The warrior part does not fit Daenerys at all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We know that Rhaegar, upon reading that prophecy, put down his books and harp to learn to become a warrior. The warrior part does not fit Daenerys at all.

Exactly, "landed knight' I hear what you're saying, and honestly a lot of these prophecies could be loosely interpreted to anything. but the fact remains that dany is not a warrior, or a male. she has never physically fought anyone, and I just think that the prophecy has to followed a little closer than what you are suggesting. Because to the untrained eye/casual reader stannis is who mel has chosen as AAR, and jon is still ned starks bastard, so do delve in deeper and read between the lines we must conclude that Jon is R+L and AAR. everything fits, i mean everything, esp once Mel started seeing the moths and Jon's face in her fires. She has more power than we know, we haven't seen half of what she can do yet. I mean the woman doesn't sleep or eat, and it seems that you can't really harm her at all. i'm pretty sure Thoros eats and sleeps, no one is as serious about r'hollor as Mel is. She is not wrong about staying with Jon, all her previous ideas that it was Stannis was just R'hollor's way of sending her to Jon. Stannis was her path to Jon.

[JMJ]

She has more power than we know, we haven't seen half of what she can do yet. I mean the woman doesn't sleep or eat, and it seems that you can't really harm her at all. i'm pretty sure Thoros eats and sleeps, no one is as serious about r'hollor as Mel is. She is not wrong about staying with Jon, all her previous ideas that it was Stannis was just R'hollor's way of sending her to Jon. Stannis was her path to Jon.

Then you have to explain why she keeps mis-reading the flames (example - seeing Arya on a dying horse), and the scene where she worries about running out of her stash of magic crap and how that's draining her energy.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Then you have to explain why she keeps mis-reading the flames (example - seeing Arya on a dying horse), and the scene where she worries about running out of her stash of magic crap and how that's draining her energy.

Because she is interpreting messages from a God, it's not ever going to be perfectly clear, otherwise he would just write her a letter, she isn't infallible she is still human and can only interpret what she sees and has to do some guesswork. she was wrong about the girl being Arya, but right about everything else in the scenario. i think as she gets closer to jon Snow/AAR she is getting more powerful, because she is finally in the right place to fulfill her life's destiny, which is to save jon's life right now after the stabbing. I think she will legit save him, not bring him back like cat or beric. jon is the the only surviving male targaryen and dany is barren, so the line can only survive through him, so his physical body has to survive this stabbing. What I am really scared of is that she will have to kill Ghost to save Jon, because only death can bring life.

[JMJ]

Because she is interpreting messages from a God, it's not ever going to be perfectly clear, otherwise he would just write her a letter, she isn't infallible she is still human and can only interpret what she sees and has to do some guesswork. she was wrong about the girl being Arya, but right about everything else in the scenario. i think as she gets closer to jon Snow/AAR she is getting more powerful, because she is finally in the right place to fulfill her life's destiny, which is to save jon's life right now after the stabbing. I think she will legit save him, not bring him back like cat or beric. jon is the the only surviving male targaryen and dany is barren, so the line can only survive through him, so his physical body has to survive this stabbing. What I am really scared of is that she will have to kill Ghost to save Jon, because only death can bring life.

I agree she misinterprets messages. However, that interpretation contradicts your theory that Mel has "more power than we know." I would argue she has been pushing the boundaries of her skill set up to now. She may be able to "come through" with some above-and-beyond act with Jon, but I don't think she is any more powerful than she has already revealed.

[darksellsword]

We know that Rhaegar, upon reading that prophecy, put down his books and harp to learn to become a warrior. The warrior part does not fit Daenerys at all.

Daenerys whipped the hell out of a few slavers in Astapor, to me she is a warriror queen. She has made some sound military decisions as well conquering three strongholds.

[MtnLion]

Daenerys whipped the hell out of a few slavers in Astapor, to me she is a warriror queen. She has made some sound military decisions as well conquering three strongholds.

Has she ever wielded a weapon and faced a foe? No.

[darksellsword]

Has she ever wielded a weapon and faced a foe? No.

hmmmm yes like i said the slavers at astapor she whipped them with a whip

[MtnLion]

hmmmm yes like i said the slavers at astapor she whipped them with a whip

Slave driver, yes, warrior, no. :P

[bemused]

Mel, to me, is a pretty fine example of how wrong a person can go when they get caught up in zealotry. She's pitiable in some respects , because if she was sold to a temple of R'hllor at a tender age , as her POV seems to imply, she really had no choice in the matter. Having been totally indoctrinated , her faith is absolute , but that doesn't mean that what she believes is true...

Someone summed up the misgivings I've had about the prophecies pretty succinctly, recently..but I can't remember where . Without going too OT, or into too much detail ..if someone ( or more than one someone ) steps up and heroically succeeds in saving the world , there will be a way to see him / her as AA, or TPTWP , or whatever. If the need ( vaccuum ) exists, it will be filled , somehow.. ( if not, no-one will be around to know the difference )... and it's unlikely that however it's fulfilled, it will be as a literal reenactment of the previous example... which may have been wrapped in metaphor , anyway.

Also, it doesn't seem to me just a simple case of misidentification by Mel, between Stannis and Jon. E.g....Jon would have been screwed , blued and tatooed if Stannis had not turned up when he did.. and Stannis would have come to grief going south if he hadn't had the benefit of Jon's advice.

But back on point .. I don't think Mel will see Jon as AA , or at least, not until it's too late to take him in the way she did with Stannis.Thus far, she's focused on him as a potential daddy of powerful shadow babies, which she would plan to use in the advancement of Stannis... I think ( I hope) that the " forces " of the Old Gods will be the medium of Jons healing / resuscitation , and resurrection will be unnecessary. ( I see BR and CoTF representing the original Old Gods and Val, Tormond and Morna representing the first men concept of the Old Gods , with Bran bridging the gap, or representing the pact between the two ..something like that... Maybe BR also represents a precursor to Jon with his fist men/Targaryen parentage.. ) We don't know enough to fill in the details, but I feel development in that direction is very "right".

Mel could eventually be a tragic figure. Having misread signs perhaps only slightly , those slight differences can have vast implications .

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Mel, to me, is a pretty fine example of how wrong a person can go when they get caught up in zealotry. She's pitiable in some respects , because if she was sold to a temple of R'hllor at a tender age , as her POV seems to imply, she really had no choice in the matter. Having been totally indoctrinated , her faith is absolute , but that doesn't mean that what she believes is true...

Someone summed up the misgivings I've had about the prophecies pretty succinctly, recently..but I can't remember where . Without going too OT, or into too much detail ..if someone ( or more than one someone ) steps up and heroically succeeds in saving the world , there will be a way to see him / her as AA, or TPTWP , or whatever. If the need ( vaccuum ) exists, it will be filled , somehow.. ( if not, no-one will be around to know the difference )... and it's unlikely that however it's fulfilled, it will be as a literal reenactment of the previous example... which may have been wrapped in metaphor , anyway.

Also, it doesn't seem to me just a simple case of misidentification by Mel, between Stannis and Jon. E.g....Jon would have been screwed , blued and tatooed if Stannis had not turned up when he did.. and Stannis would have come to grief going south if he hadn't had the benefit of Jon's advice.

But back on point .. I don't think Mel will see Jon as AA , or at least, not until it's too late to take him in the way she did with Stannis.Thus far, she's focused on him as a potential daddy of powerful shadow babies, which she would plan to use in the advancement of Stannis... I think ( I hope) that the " forces " of the Old Gods will be the medium of Jons healing / resuscitation , and resurrection will be unnecessary. ( I see BR and CoTF representing the original Old Gods and Val, Tormond and Morna representing the first men concept of the Old Gods , with Bran bridging the gap, or representing the pact between the two ..something like that... Maybe BR also represents a precursor to Jon with his fist men/Targaryen parentage.. ) We don't know enough to fill in the details, but I feel development in that direction is very "right".

Mel could eventually be a tragic figure. Having misread signs perhaps only slightly , those slight differences can have vast implications .

Yeah a lot of that is correct, but don't you think that she was starting to think Jon is AAR, she said every time she looked in the flames since she got to the Wall and searched for AAR, Jon's face keeps popping up instead of Stannis.

So I guess does everyone think that is just because she is supposed to warn him about the stabbing or that he is AAR?