Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[darksellsword]

I agree this is a possibility but you don't make clear much evidence other than a couple of occasions and you make some assumptions that many disagree with. Firstly, I agree that fire will have something to do with Jon, and this is something that to me seems likely but I rarely factor it into my predictions as there is much greater evidence to support him being revived by a mixture of Old Gods, Red God (R'hallor) magic (Ice and Fire). Some minor corrections as well; Jon, not John, GRRM has often stated that he at least for the most part intended for magic to supplement an otherwise natural world, so it plays a role in the story are but it does not play a "huge" role, the story is more about the humanity and relationships of the characters (His words paraphrased). Lastly at current count the SERIES or Song as he has deemed the story arc, has 5 books and 1 hopefully in the later stages of righting with 1 or 2 more to come after so it is not a Trilogy which means 3 books in that sense. Sorry to be dick-ish :P, just making sweeping assumptions and large mistakes doesn't really garner much respect on forums like this :D. Hopefully you have found this helpful instead of rude. Thanks for reading.

you will have to forgive me for misspelling jon "john" that one time but unlike you i didnt take advantage of an edit facility at a later stage but rather prefered to contribute to the forum in an open and unselfconscious manner the only assumption i had made being that the readers of this forum would be capable of knowing my meaning even with such typos feel free to belittle my posts as often as you like . I was of course making predictions based on my own understanding of the story arc. The notion of there being evidence to back up one theory or the next is ridiculous especially events that have not been written yet .It is a work of fiction if Grrm wanted a pink pegasus to swoop in and deflect the attackers knives with its wings he could do so.Hopefully my wild and rash predictions full of typos havent ruined your love of this thrilling saga full of complex well thought out charecters and relationships filled with drama in a some what natural based world. While George r.r.Martins opinion regarding which elements play a stronger part in his writing are intriguing he does not control how his story is percieved by his fans. I reserve the right to an opinion and in my opinion Magic and the supernatural play a huge role in this story and i very much enjoy it from my perspective. Meanwhile back at the wall and on topic I dont believe jon will die Grrm wrote the charecter as an underdog viewpoint charecter to kill jon at this point would be a huge anti climax. I like the idea put forward earlier on this thread that jons temporary death releases him from his oath to the nightswatch allowing him to become directly involved in the power struggle in westeros.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

you will have to forgive me for misspelling jon "john" that one time but unlike you i didnt take advantage of an edit facility at a later stage but rather prefered to contribute to the forum in an open and unselfconscious manner the only assumption i had made being that the readers of this forum would be capable of knowing my meaning even with such typos feel free to belittle my posts as often as you like . I was of course making predictions based on my own understanding of the story arc. The notion of there being evidence to back up one theory or the next is ridiculous especially events that have not been written yet .It is a work of fiction if Grrm wanted a pink pegasus to swoop in and deflect the attackers knives with its wings he could do so.Hopefully my wild and rash predictions full of typos havent ruined your love of this thrilling saga full of complex well thought out charecters and relationships filled with drama in a some what natural based world. While George r.r.Martins opinion regarding which elements play a stronger part in his writing are intriguing he does not control how his story is percieved by his fans. I reserve the right to an opinion and in my opinion Magic and the supernatural play a huge role in this story and i very much enjoy it from my perspective. Meanwhile back at the wall and on topic I dont believe jon will die Grrm wrote the charecter as an underdog viewpoint charecter to kill jon at this point would be a huge anti climax. I like the idea put forward earlier on this thread that jons temporary death releases him from his oath to the nightswatch allowing him to become directly involved in the power struggle in westeros.

I used the edit function because I am dyslexic and my spelling is frankly appalling. I didn't mean to belittle you or your post, I added corrections, gave my opinion (which mostly agreed) and then went further into it, giving bits of evidence (when I say evidence I mean referable portions of the story so people may look them up and then form other interesting opinions and thus make the forum more fun to read). Toward your disagreement over my point about you using huge, well it is a discussion, I disagreed and I then said why, don't be mad, I wasn't being mean I was genuinely trying to help.

Now back on topic as you said :D. As one of the advocates of a brief death period to release him from said vows I think that GRRM has really helped himself out because this provides a nice clean cliff hanger from which he can project Jon's character without the shackles of the Wall, so that he can later join other characters (which I think would be great as we have only really seen Jon in WF, Wall and bWall so seeing him, say in the Riverlands, Stormlands or even just back in WF would be awesome).

Hope the first part clears up my intent and sorry for any aggro created, it wasn't intended. I may be strange in this regard (though I think not), but I like people to give evidence, whether it be citation, link or just a paraphrase so that I can look out for it in a reread or read about in another forum. What I don't mean is that you have to lay it out like a scientific study because as you correctly stated, its Fantasy and he could literally go from a gritty interesting story to saying "fuck it, I want Jon Snow to die for good and Dany to become a pretty pony with three legs" and really we can't foresee this, but to me, that isn't what the forums are for. They are for followers of the series to have fun and a laugh discussing what they think GRRM meant and what they think he will write next :P

[Urien the Ragged]

what if Jon wargs Stannis? Can he do that? Wouldn't that explain why Melisandre keeps seeing Jon in her visions of AA but refuses to believe that anyone besides Stannis is AA?

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

what if Jon wargs Stannis? Can he do that? Wouldn't that explain why Melisandre keeps seeing Jon in her visions of AA?

I guess he could, if he has similar abilities to Bran and Stannis somehow became weakened enough mentally to be warged like an animal (I believe the reason Bran can warg Hodor is because he is a "half-wit" or simpleton). I have seen this same idea fleshed out on a couple of threads but personally I don't buy it. Main reasons really are quite personal and not really up two my usual standard of evidence lol, basically I want to see Jon, himself be AA without it involving the Others or him becoming unJon (those to theories can be read up on earlier in this thread, the heresy thread and then on some Mel and unCat threads) and I want Mel to realize she was wrong about Stannis and wrong to be a crazy witch and turn into a more human and helpful character instead of being all cloak and dagger and generally creepy. Thanks for bringing it back up, I really want to see some other ideas on this one because even though I don't like it and currently am not confident in it, to me it seems like something GRRM would do to surprise less avid readers and throw heavy readers off with the twist. :D

Edit: Forgot to discuss one bit of what you said. As to Mel's visions I think she starts seeing Jon simply out of proximity and that Stannis was a tool to make other events happen in other locations before basically being Mel's ticket up North to chill with Jon. :P

[Urien the Ragged]

thanks for the interesting reply. somewhere the varamyr prologue has to be foreshadowing something, right?

[Tysha Lannister]

Makes me wonder if Robb could have stayed alive via Grey Ghost had they not been both killed

Ditto. Is it possible Robb warged into someone or something else?

[Urien the Ragged]

Ditto. Is it possible Robb warged into someone or something else?

I proposed the idea that Robb warged Reynald Westerling after warging Grey Wind, and was roundly shouted down. Reynald's change of heart during the Red Wedding, cutting Grey Wind free, seemed to be a little strange. my theory is that because Robb's last words were Grey Wind (like Jon's last word was Ghost), he was attempting to warg him (why else would he say his Wolf's name? His mother was right there, most people scream for their mommies in moments like that), finding himself chained and no way out, he wargs Westerling, who had previously surrendered, and cuts Grey Wind free. The rest is unknown.

[darksellsword]

@Alasdair no offense taken on my part thank you for your apology and explaination.

when you said "As to Mel's visions I think she starts seeing Jon simply out of proximity and that Stannis was a tool to make other events happen in other locations before basically being Mel's ticket up North to chill with Jon" are you implying that Mel has always known jon is AA?

Because i believe she has and that she minipulated Stannis into believing he is AA in order to rally the forces of the kingdom into being where

Jon needed them to be without revealing jons indentity to the rest of Westeros.

Ditto. Is it possible Robb warged into someone or something else?

I think its entirely possible that Robb warged. My first thought when he was killed

was that Theon swore his sword to him and then betrayed that oath .They were very close

almost like brothers. In my opinion Theon is weak willed enough to be controlled by Robbs

spirit

[Urien the Ragged]

@Alasdair no offense taken on my part thank you for your apology and explaination.

when you said "As to Mel's visions I think she starts seeing Jon simply out of proximity and that Stannis was a tool to make other events happen in other locations before basically being Mel's ticket up North to chill with Jon" are you implying that Mel has always known jon is AA?

Because i believe she has and that she minipulated Stannis into believing he is AA in order to rally the forces of the kingdom into being where

Jon needed them to be without revealing jons indentity to the rest of Westeros.

I think its entirely possible that Robb warged. My first thought when he was killed

was that Theon swore his sword to him and then betrayed that oath .They were very close

almost like brothers. In my opinion Theon is weak willed enough to be controlled by Robbs

spirit

but Theon wasn't there. in Varamyr's prologue it's implied, i believe, that the creature being warged must be in the vicinity. My bet is still on Reynald Westerling, as there is some evidence of Westerling behaving oddly during the fighting at the RW.

[kissdbyfire]

@Alasdair no offense taken on my part thank you for your apology and explaination.

when you said "As to Mel's visions I think she starts seeing Jon simply out of proximity and that Stannis was a tool to make other events happen in other locations before basically being Mel's ticket up North to chill with Jon" are you implying that Mel has always known jon is AA?

Because i believe she has and that she minipulated Stannis into believing he is AA in order to rally the forces of the kingdom into being where

Jon needed them to be without revealing jons indentity to the rest of Westeros.

I think its entirely possible that Robb warged. My first thought when he was killed

was that Theon swore his sword to him and then betrayed that oath .They were very close

almost like brothers. In my opinion Theon is weak willed enough to be controlled by Robbs

spirit

From what we've seen in Mel's PoV in ADwD, she really believes Stannis to be AAR. Here's one of the passages that support this.

ADwD, Melisandre:

“The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.”

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

@darksellsword I sort of meant that but I think it was a mix of the two, I think she thought he was AA at the very beginning but by the time he lost the BW she was just using him to get to Jon with his army. Thanks for understanding as well. I also like the Robb warging theory, it is one I have never seen and looks quite cool.

Here is an idea that I was thinking that I wanted to run by you guys. Now many here agree that R+L=J or at least think it is an option, so that means that people involved in telling Jon would be Howland Reed (Or his kids), Bran, Bloodraven or I am now beginning to think Davos may be involved some how. He is off to get Rickon, and it just occurred to me that the Starks thrive in winter while others in the south do not, and that we are due some Stark vengence, so what I was thinking is we could see Jon meet up with Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor, the Reeds, Davos and I think Stannis will die, so we will get his army and Mel following him, the Queens men and I think the watch will fall so any watch members and wildlings left alive. This would be a pretty large force (My estimate at about 40k fighting folk). I reckon they will continue the Winterfell repairs and then strike south, clearing the rest of the Iron Islanders out using Theon and his sis and then go join up with Sansa who has managed to wrest her way free of LF and marry Harry (or whatever his name is) "the heir" (sweet robins heir) and is now rulling the Eerie. This may be crackpot but if you have a look at the "hint for stark vengeance ..." thread you may see where I am going. This will also help with speeding the tale up a little after the slow of aDwD. What do you guys think of my wee theory? :D

[darksellsword]

but Theon wasn't there. in Varamyr's prologue it's implied, i believe, that the creature being warged must be in the vicinity. My bet is still on Reynald Westerling, as there is some evidence of Westerling behaving oddly during the fighting at the RW.

From what we've seen in Mel's PoV in ADwD, she really believes Stannis to be AAR. Here's one of the passages that support this.

ADwD, Melisandre:

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

I should of clarified my comment regarding Robb warging Theon. It didnt happen at Rw i believe it will happen later. i find your theory that Robb

warged Reynald Westerling very plausible, but ultimately its Theon that has a debt owed to Robb.

kissdbyfire . yes you are right Melisandre does appear to believe stannis is AA . I still have a hard time accounting for stannis appearing at the wall to vanquish all of jons foes. I know there will be people who say of course he should because of the wildlings and the threat from the others. The south seems for the most part oblivious to the threat beyond the wall. If Renley Baratheon had of succeeded in taking westeros he was far too much of a pragmatist to heed the warnings of a supernatural force invading his kingdom like wise if stannis had of won the battle of the Bw he would never of ventured to the wall he would of stayed in kingslanding obsessed with holding the Iron throne engaged in a long drawn out battle with the lannisters and tyrells..The only large force that would of aided Jon without the intervention of the R'hllor would of been the starks. Robb before Rw would of been unable to disengage from the war to retreat to the wall to help Jon. My question is this a pattern that provides a hint that Jon is AA being protected by R'hllor through the actions of Melisandre?

[JMJ]

IMO Jon warging into another human is unlikely at this point in the game. Bran's warging ability was arguably more advanced by the time he warged into Hodor, and that was initially a difficult task. Besides, one might assume that Hodor was easier to warg into given his mental submissiveness, as described in those passages. Moreover, Varamyr, a skilled warger, still had serious difficulty (in fact failure) warging into that wildling woman in the prologue to ADWD. Therefore, I would suspect Jon suddenly being able to warg into Stannis, some NW person, Wun Wun, or anyone other than Ghost when he's stabbed is unlikely.

[Dragonguard]

I proposed the idea that Robb warged Reynald Westerling after warging Grey Wind, and was roundly shouted down. Reynald's change of heart during the Red Wedding, cutting Grey Wind free, seemed to be a little strange.

but Theon wasn't there. in Varamyr's prologue it's implied, i believe, that the creature being warged must be in the vicinity. My bet is still on Reynald Westerling, as there is some evidence of Westerling behaving oddly during the fighting at the RW.

I dunno about this, its possible i suppose but you keep saying that Raynald Westerling acted 'strangely' - I didnt read it this way, it seemed to me quite normal that being outnumbered and unable to see what was happening inside the Castle (he was with Grey Wind at the kennels/stables - outside anyway) he surrendered thinking no one was going to be killed. Then when the Freys went to kill Grey Wind, Raynald realised that they would probably be killing Robb too and tried to help in the only way he could, being unarmed now - GW never disliked Raynald like he did his mother and uncle so Raynald must have been loyal to robb and not surrendering out of cowardice or treachery or anything - interestingly Raynald was there to see robbs will - all the other signitaries are still alive arnt they? Mallister, Greatjon and Edmure as prisoners, Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont headed North and Rs body was never found...

[Nelapsi]

I proposed the idea that Robb warged Reynald Westerling after warging Grey Wind, and was roundly shouted down.

I don't think that's even possible. We know warging isn't easy, the animals fight back, and a human being is going to fight even harder. And Robb is probably like Jon, he wargs GW sometimes but he doesn't know exactly what he is and what he is doing. He is far from being a trained warg. So, no, I really don't think it happeend that way.

[darksellsword]

We dont really know the rules of warging for want of a better term. What we do know is that while bran was in a coma his warging abilities increased dramatically.Weve never had a testimony from a dead warg let alone one with so many scores to settle as Robb had. I dont see warging playing a significant

role in jons story because its quiet frankly overkill if he is AA . G r.r.m might decide to ignore alot of this wish fulfillment as to which Charecters should die or return and leave Robb dead and focus on Jon reuniting with Arya and sansa styling their story similar to Aeogon the conqueror and his sisters with all the vengeance and retribution for the starks we crave.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I should of clarified my comment regarding Robb warging Theon. It didnt happen at Rw i believe it will happen later. i find your theory that Robb

warged Reynald Westerling very plausible, but ultimately its Theon that has a debt owed to Robb.

kissdbyfire . yes you are right Melisandre does appear to believe stannis is AA . I still have a hard time accounting for stannis appearing at the wall to vanquish all of jons foes. I know there will be people who say of course he should because of the wildlings and the threat from the others. The south seems for the most part oblivious to the threat beyond the wall. If Renley Baratheon had of succeeded in taking westeros he was far too much of a pragmatist to heed the warnings of a supernatural force invading his kingdom like wise if stannis had of won the battle of the Bw he would never of ventured to the wall he would of stayed in kingslanding obsessed with holding the Iron throne engaged in a long drawn out battle with the lannisters and tyrells..The only large force that would of aided Jon without the intervention of the R'hllor would of been the starks. Robb before Rw would of been unable to disengage from the war to retreat to the wall to help Jon. My question is this a pattern that provides a hint that Jon is AA being protected by R'hllor through the actions of Melisandre?

Yet she keeps seeing Jon Snow. Which is evidence for me that he is AAR.

[chaishr]

I do not think he warged into Ghost because he never has warged before and I'm guessing it isn't a walk in the park. And it's way too predictable.

[Montey14]

maybe Mellisandre realizes that Stannis is not AA, as she alwyas sees snow in the fires everytime she asks to see AA and looks for Stannis. Maybe Jons killing was an illusion planned by Mel just as she did with Mance. maybe the letter Jon got from Bolton was actually sent by Melissandre and the whole murder was staged to get him off the wall. Plus we dont know exactly what was written to Howland Reed in the letter Rob sent him before the red wedding. Perhaps Howland makes an appearance at the batle of WF to turn the tide against the Boltons and Freys and tells Jon of his true parantage....lets remeber that he is the last person in the realm still alive that knows of his true birth. Just a theory...perhaps Martin doesn't want to get all whimsical and doens't feel the need to kill off ghost so that Jon can live.

[mrlukeduke]

Jon warged into Mormont's crow!

But seriously, I hope there isn't an all-too-obvious 'warging solution' for Jon in TWoW. Poor plot device for such a monumental character and his situation IMO. It's just too... corn, corn!