What exactly is the appeal of Jon Snow?

[lostcause]

If you think my post was passive aggressive then I apologise. I thought yours was rude and snarky, so I replied in a similar tone. But if that was not your intention, I apologise. :)

Daenerys is not too likeable. At all. Hence why she has so many hate threads. Do I think GRRM has deliberately made Dany a sympathetic character? Yes. But a large section of fans dislike her anyway and seemingly don't sympathise with her. So there's no need to bring her up.

I don't think I said that Jon's fans were "forced" to like him? I said that I thought GRRM was a bit heavy-handed with his characterisation of Jon in an effort to make him likeable.

I'm not trying to offend anyone so there's no need to get defensive. I'm just a bit sick of seeing so many people say that there's no reason to dislike Jon, because that in itself is a pretty big reason to dislike a character.

No I wasn't intending to be either rude or snarky at all, so apologies right back at ya, was genuine curiosity hehe. English is my 3rd language so at times I know I don't always use the right words in the right context.

Thanks for clearing it up :)

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Keep your opinion about another user's character and personality off the public forum please. Address the argument, not the user.

[/mod hat]

[lyvyathan]

Strawman. What I said: I feel like GRRM tries to make Jon too likeable, which means he avoids making controversial decisions. What I didn't say: I wish Jon would flay people THEN he'd be so flawless!!!

Have you really read the books or just talking out of your straw hat? Jon does make a number of controversial, even bad choices - one of which ended in that cliff-hanger, yeah that one.

Anyhow, you should start a thread "GRRM has made Jon too likable" - you'd be surprised by the number of readers who hate him. Actually, just go through this thread, you'll find many posters, esp some Cat lovers, who think he is a terrible person and give a number of silly reasons to justify their opinion.

For me, I just love the books - I love the world that GRRM made up. OK, there are some chapters which get me annoyed and sometimes the story arc for some of the characters, even Jon, get a bit tiresome s I end up flipping to the ones I currently like before going back to read the rest. Maybe its time for you to give the "I hate Jon because I hate Jon" and re-read the book again?

[Winter's Knight]

Have you really read the books or just talking out of your straw hat? Jon does make a number of controversial, even bad choices - one of which ended in that cliff-hanger, yeah that one.

I don't think Patrick is talking about in-universe controversial decisions because those would include things like Ned's decision to let Arya train in sword-fighting: a decision that seems good to us but is controversial in Westoros.

Jon's decisions have been similar-with the exception of Gilly's babe-they've all been "right" in our view. Unlike the other characters, Jon doesn't challenge the reader, he doesn't make you rethink your world-views.

Anyhow, you should start a thread "GRRM has made Jon too likable" - you'd be surprised by the number of readers who hate him. Actually, just go through this thread, you'll find many posters, esp some Cat lovers, who think he is a terrible person and give a number of silly reasons to justify their opinion.

For me, I just love the books - I love the world that GRRM made up. OK, there are some chapters which get me annoyed and sometimes the story arc for some of the characters, even Jon, get a bit tiresome s I end up flipping to the ones I currently like before going back to read the rest. Maybe its time for you to give the "I hate Jon because I hate Jon" and re-read the book again?

Characters that are too likeable, that make the reader feel as though s/he is being forced to support it are not to everyone's tastes-Pollyhanna, Anne Shirley, most of Enid Blyton's heroes, Lucy Manette and so on.

I dislike this false dichotomy that all Cat lovers or all Danystans hate Jon-some of us are indifferent to him. He doesn't inspire (in me) any great love or hate, I do not feel like I can relate to him, in short he is to me like Bran, Areo Hotah, Arianne or JonCon: part of the story and nothing more.

[PatrickStormborn]

Have you really read the books or just talking out of your straw hat? Jon does make a number of controversial, even bad choices - one of which ended in that cliff-hanger, yeah that one.

Nope, I haven't read the books, clearly. Because it must be impossible for different readers to have different interpretations of the text. :rolleyes:

None of Jon's choices are controversial prior to ADWD. And, even in ADWD, every choice he makes is clearly supposed to be correct.

Anyhow, you should start a thread "GRRM has made Jon too likable" - you'd be surprised by the number of readers who hate him. Actually, just go through this thread, you'll find many posters, esp some Cat lovers, who think he is a terrible person and give a number of silly reasons to justify their opinion.

Again, this explains why some readers dislike Jon. Because you've just said that the only reasons for disliking ihm are "silly". If there's no reason to dislike a character, they're "probably a piece of cardboard", as GRRM puts it. I don't like cardboard characters.

And before anyone brings up Davos or Ned or Bran or Arya... There are plenty of reasons to dislike all of those characters. Davos is blind to Stannis' faults, he was a smuggler, he cheated on his wife, etc. Ned was stubborn and lacked foresight. Bran wargs Hodor. Arya has killed many people.

For me, I just love the books - I love the world that GRRM made up. OK, there are some chapters which get me annoyed and sometimes the story arc for some of the characters, even Jon, get a bit tiresome s I end up flipping to the ones I currently like before going back to read the rest. Maybe its time for you to give the "I hate Jon because I hate Jon" and re-read the book again?

I am re-reading the book, and he's even more boring (and stupid) this time around. YMMV.

[Viserys's Queen]

I do think Jon had an easy life

[PatrickStormborn]

I dislike this false dichotomy that all Cat lovers or all Danystans hate Jon-some of us are indifferent to him. He doesn't inspire (in me) any great love or hate, I do not feel like I can relate to him, in short he is to me like Bran, Areo Hotah, Arianne or JonCon: part of the story and nothing more.

Yes, this is basically how I feel. I don't feel strongly enough about Jon to dislike him or hate him, I'm just bored by him and fear how his story may progress.

[Viserys's Queen]

Jon is a Mary-SUE the end.

Or Gary Sue

[Raja]

fear how his story may progress.

Could you elaborate on that?

[PatrickStormborn]

Could you elaborate on that?

Let's put it this way -- I don't want to see a real burning sword. At all. The moment Jon has a sword of fire that slays wights and white walkers is the moment I stop reading the series. (The same goes for any other character who has a sword of actual fire, for the record.)

Now, if Jon comes back after ADWD to be more like Daario and less like Ned, he may just gain a fan. :cool4:

[Viserys's Queen]

Let's put it this way -- I don't want to see a real burning sword. At all. The moment Jon has a sword of fire that slays wights and white walkers is the moment I stop reading the series. (The same goes for any other character who has a sword of actual fire, for the record.)

Now, if Jon comes back after ADWD to be more like Daario and less like Ned, he may just gain a fan. :cool4:

You just took my words out of my mouth!

[Raja]

Let's put it this way -- I don't want to see a real burning sword. At all. The moment Jon has a sword of fire that slays wights and white walkers is the moment I stop reading the series. (The same goes for any other character who has a sword of actual fire, for the record.)

Now, if Jon comes back after ADWD to be more like Daario and less like Ned, he may just gain a fan. :cool4:

Jon being AA is up for debate , and whilst it's certainly something which Martin could go with it's not guaranteed. Plus the scene you've describe is probably a cliche which Martin wouldn't go into. It's all subjective when it comes to characters , and I can understand why you find Jon boring ( Daario is far too cringeworthy , and Dany as a character for me not intriguing at all ) it all depends on taste and what you can relate to.

Also I'm very sure if someone does come up with a flaming sword , you'll still read the books.

[Buried Treasure]

We're writing Beric out then? Setting a sword afire with your own blood counts as a real burning sword for me (versus Thoros' and Stannis' various 'fake' burning swords)

[PatrickStormborn]

We're writing Beric out then? Setting a sword afire with your own blood counts as a real burning sword for me (versus Thoros' and Stannis' various 'fake' burning swords)

Ha, nice catch, but I think it's pretty clear I was referring strictly to a sword of fire that goes by the name of 'Lightbringer'. :) As it stands, Beric Dondarrion's sword wasn't particularly good, anyway.

[Buried Treasure]

I don't spend much time debating the lightbringer prophecy and can't remember exactly how it goes, so I won't debate the merits of that. Prophecy is so much bull anyway, it never means anything until it is fulfilled and you go 'ah, thats what it meant' and the more important the event the harder it is to interpret properly.

However, if Jon does get resurrected by the breath of fire method he may find himself able to do the setting alight his own blood trick. He already owns a better quality sword than Beric ever did so it might be able to handle the fire better than Berics did. That wouldn't bother me so much because it is using a couple of previously established examples in combination rather than suddenly introducing some new magic.

[Peko]

I don't think even us who like Jon truly want to see him have a flaming sword that annihilates the Others in the end. Nor do we want to see him learn of his heritage and as a result, have men bending the knee to him everywhere he goes, becoming the king who unites Westeros and throws Dany back into the Narrow Sea (or marries her).

[Revilo]

I think Jon Snow is one of my favorite PoV characters.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Jon is a Mary-SUE the end.

Or Gary Sue

lol no. No. No no. People who say that need to really look at what a Sue character really is. Flawless to the point of idiocy and the entire plot revolves around them. Jon is neither of those things. Having Cat have serious disdain for him just because hes there is a mark away from Suedom. The fact he gets told time and time again about his actions, doesnt get made a ranger on the get-go, doesnt get the unanimous vote for Lord Commander (blame Sam for that one), loses the girl, gets stabbed by his black brothers, are pretty major marks against Suedom as well. Honestly, no one in this series is a Sue. No. One.

[The Marquis de Leech]

lol no. No. No no. People who say that need to really look at what a Sue character really is. Flawless to the point of idiocy and the entire plot revolves around them.

How about 'world shifts to accommodate the Sue/Stu'. By that criteria, Jon definitely qualifies (nor does he have much in the way of flaws - try naming one that has any significance, or causes him any real grief).

Jon is neither of those things. Having Cat have serious disdain for him just because hes there is a mark away from Suedom.

Troubled past/treated badly by those big meanies who don't understand? That's perfectly Sueish.

The fact he gets told time and time again about his actions,

Jon doesn't act. He reacts.

doesnt get made a ranger on the get-go,

Poor Jon. Sansa and Arya come face to face with psychopaths, and he doesn't get into his desired class.

doesnt get the unanimous vote for Lord Commander (blame Sam for that one),

Um, the sheer fact that he got the LC at all is seriously contrived.

loses the girl,

Having shagged her dozens and dozens of times. Killing Ygritte off neatly avoids the plot complications of pregnancy. Otherwise, she'd pretty much done what was needed, plot-wise.

gets stabbed by his black brothers,

See 'misunderstood by meanies'. Frankly, I'd have stabbed him too.

[Tattered Prince Pumpkinn]

Jon POV needs Finn and Jake.. Adventure Time!