Brandon Stark, the douchebag?

[lilenadheas]

Could yes, but people are talking as if there is evidence that he did. I can't recall any.

I agree that there is no in-text concrete information, but the evidence is there on a subtextual level. That, or I'm reading WAY too much into the set up of the story

[lilenadheas]

There is no evidence at all. It could be Brandon, or it could be Ned. All we know is that 1.-Ned loved Ashara, 2.-Brandon was a lady-killer, and 3.-One of them impregnated Ashara.

To be fair, we don't know 1 or 3.

[Field of Asphodel]

Could yes, but people are talking as if there is evidence that he did. I can't recall any.

Other people have explained this better than I think I could, but I'll try.

In ADWD, Selmy reflects that,

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from the tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well...If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Though the language is vague, the implication seems to be that it was "Stark" who "dishonored" her at Harrenhal. It seems unlikely that Selmy, who earlier in the book defended Ned Stark, would talk of Ned Stark in these terms. Both Brandon and Ned danced with Ashara. As others have said, perhaps she politely danced with Ned, but hit it off with Brandon.

"Dishonored" doesn't have to mean rape. Consensual sex outside of a marriage brings dishonor, so anything that may do that may be called "dishonored." Selmy has personal reasons for wanting to blame Ashara's pre-marital affair on someone other than her, so he chooses to describe it in this way. Yes, having pre-marital sex with a maiden highborn lady is considered a slight to the girl's family, but considering the fact that Brandon was fostered with the Ryswells, I think it's reasonable to assume the two knew each other quite well. Marriage was at least a possibility prior to the Stark-Tully marriage proposal.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

When presented with the Brandon theory, it made much more sense to me.

When Robb marries Jeyne, he says "it's what father would have done", which I think is another subtle clue by Martin.

Probably so. As Devil's advocate, lets say they do fall in love, he does sleep with her(as Rob impulsively did), and do intend to get married. His brother and father then get killed, and he's suddenly Lord of Winterfell and needs to marry Catelyn to gain Riveruns support or risk the ruin of his house, and Robert's, and Jon Arryn's etc.

[Field of Asphodel]

Probably so. As Devil's advocate, lets say they do fall in love, he does sleep with her(as Rob impulsively did), and do intend to get married. His brother and father then get killed, and he's suddenly Lord of Winterfell and needs to marry Catelyn to gain Riveruns support or risk the ruin of his house, and Robert's, and Jon Arryn's etc.

If what Robb did was truly what Ned Stark would've done...

Ned Stark would've married Ashara Dayne shotgun style and forswore his oath to Catelyn as Lord of Winterfell.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Yes. Hes more like Theon before Winterfell than most of the current Starks. You do not go to Court and threaten the King, or threaten his son in his presence. Under English Law of the time, it was a treasonable (ie execution) for even "imagining to kill the King" and I think Tywins reaction to Tyrions harsh words on Joffrey is very indicative. It is treason to threaten to kill the Royal family. By the letter of the Law, the Mad King had every right to kill the man. Being an idiot meathead is no excuse.

Plus, by the sound of it. Brandon Stark was a hypocrite; plain and simple. He dishonoured several noble women and yet blew his top off when it happened to be his sister; who may even have came willingly. His reaction is more about his patriarchal sense of family honour being insulted by Rhaegar stealing a female member of his house intended to strengthen its political positon. The fact that he doesn't see this in his own actions entails a massive amount of entitlement. He thinks its his right as the head of a great house to have his way with the women of lesser houses. Which is exactly how Rhaegar might have viewed abducting Lyanna if thats how it went down. Hence defending his, not his sisters honour, is only a kind of selfish ego, he wants to put himself across as an honorable heir when he is nothing of the sort.

I think thats about as harsh as I can get. ;)

I think it's a little unfair to say Brandon should have kept his cool and gone through everything diplomatically, I mean he thought this dude kidnapped his sister. If someone took my hypothetical sister against her will I would have done the same thing. He basically went to king's landing and yelled "FUCK THAT GUY" I don't blame him for that.

[gregory]

Brandon seems like a cool guy. I don't think people should criticize him so much for going to KL. Rhaegar had just kidnapped and raped his sister, he had to defend his family's honor by demanding justice. It was rash, but it's not like he could just let Rhaegar get away with it.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Though the language is vague, the implication seems to be that it was "Stark" who "dishonored" her at Harrenhal. It seems unlikely that Selmy, who earlier in the book defended Ned Stark, would talk of Ned Stark in these terms.

The wording is incredibly awkward though. She 'turned to Stark' to dishonor her? Is she in heat or what? The 'turned to Stark' almost sounds after the fact to me.

Both Brandon and Ned danced with Ashara. As others have said, perhaps she politely danced with Ned, but hit it off with Brandon.

There's no evidence that they hit off though. Brandon is more handsome and heir to Winterfell for sure, but if they were having a hoot together why is the rumor that she fell in love with Ned?

[Alexander Stark]

He was a douche in the same was good ol king Bobert was a douche. He was raised to lead, born to be a lord, told he would be a lord and an important man

With these young, strong, handsome men, it turned them kind of arrogant and bold and confident. Which leads them to douchey actions

[Stark@heart]

It was the wolf blood that made him act like an idiot. Do you really ride into the King's Walled City and into his palace and call for the death of his son and heir?

He must have been drunk too.

As to Barb the Bimbo and possibly Lady Ashara - He was just trying to make the 8. :cool4: Nothing wrong with that.

[LordBloodraven]

Ye i never got the impression that Ashara was raped.

I think the way the text is set up favours Brandon as the father. We are told again and again that N+A=J, which we know is untrue. Martin has been telling us a story that doesn't quite fit, Ned would never have dishonoured either woman imo. If Ned slept with Ashara, it was extremely uncharacteristic, whereas Brandon, as we know could well have fathered bastards with highborn ladies without much thought. When presented with the Brandon theory, it made much more sense to me.

When Robb marries Jeyne, he says "it's what father would have done", which I think is another subtle clue by Martin.

Just wondering... is the timeline known around Brandon's death?

Considering

1) Brandon was engaged to Cat

2) Brandon seemingly wasn't the "no premarital sex" kinda guy

3) As soon as he died, Ned was hurriedly married to her

4) While Ned went to war, Cat gave birth to Robb

As a bonus: if it's true that Brandon dishonoured Ashara Dayne while betrothed to Cat, then chose Cat... then Robb's actions with Jeyne would be one of those typical inversions. Of course, same if it's with Ned.

====

And I wouldn't call him a douchebag. Just a brainless twat for his KL stunt.

The irony is that being "douchy" (Hey Rhaegar, come here to die!!!) doomed Brandon and not being a douche (Jeyne, it was amazing and thanks for curing and comforting me, I have a Frey to marry. Bye) doomed Robb

[LordBloodraven]

He dishonoured Ashara. I assume that implies rape in medieval jargan.

There's no proof that she was raped or that they slept together. Robb thought that he dishonoured Jeyne Westerling by sleeping with her without any coercion.

Taken without context, the "come out and die" makes him appear very badly but for all we know, this could have been a trial by combat demand or anything like that. Rhaegar disappearing with Lyanna is a big fuck you to the Starks and to Robert Baratheon

[Lion of Judah]

I don't believe that Brandon was the Stark that dishonored Ashara Dayne. He only remains a possibility because of Barristan's vague rendition of the events that took place Harrenhall. If you consider comments made by Ashara's nephew Edric; then the Stark Barristan is referring to is actually Eddard. I have yet to see any evidence that suggest that Brandon bedded Ashara knowing that she loved Eddard. Eddard always looked up to him and felt as though he was never as good as Brandon, so considering the type of man Eddard was I can only assume that Brandon wasn't as bad as some may think.

[Field of Asphodel]

The wording is incredibly awkward though. She 'turned to Stark' to dishonor her? Is she in heat or what? The 'turned to Stark' almost sounds after the fact to me.

There's no evidence that they hit off though. Brandon is more handsome and heir to Winterfell for sure, but if they were having a hoot together why is the rumor that she fell in love with Ned?

I'll admit I'm a bit stumped. Any way I think about it, the phrasing sounds awkward. "...mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well." Why would she "grieve" for a man who had "dishonored" her? This is why I don't think the "dishonoring" was non-consensual by any standard. His later statement, "If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?". If he meant "look to him" for love, I agree that would sound weird. But Selmy is also saying that winning a damn tourney competition might've significantly influenced Ashara's willingness to consider one man over another. If Selmy means "turning [in her grief] to Stark" for comfort, then he must've meant Ned Stark...but why should Selmy's feelings for Ashara make him a better source of comfort for Ashara than Ned Stark? One doesn't need to be in love with someone to give someone comfort? Does Selmy think he could've prevented Ashara from committing suicide whereas Ned Stark couldn't have for some reason?

It's pretty vague exactly how well Ned and Ashara knew each other. Ned Dayne's aunt Allyria claims they fell in love at Harrenhal. Harwin heard the tales later in Winterfell, but also says he doubts if there's any truth to it. I think it's reasonable to assume Ned Stark was attracted to Ashara. They danced. Harwin says, "There's not like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe so words were whispered in a tent or a night, who can say?" It sounds to me like no one really knows (except possibly Allyria, but we don't even know that, she might be mistaken), but I think the combination of them dancing publicly, of Ashara killing herself shortly after meeting with Ned Stark, and Ned Stark having a bastard that fueled these rumors. I don't think the absence of rumors about Brandon and Ashara means nothing happened. They were at Harrenhal together and danced together. There's still a lot we don't know about Brandon. Ned Stark's mysterious bastard is better fuel than whispered words about two people long dead.

[Lion of Judah]

I may need clarification on this, but I was of the opinion being "dishonored" meant you were with child out of wedlock and not that maidenhead had been taken out of wedlock.

[StarkSupporter]

I have a hard time considering Brandon Stark a douchebag, but admittedly, I am a bit biased.

He gets thought of less, because he has dishonored Barbrey Ryswell, others, and possibly Ashara Dayne. I know that he slept with them, but most importantly, he has no bastards with the high born women he slept with. That is the most important part of being dishonored, there is no proof that Brandon was with any of these women. The whole "blood on a sword" is a bit weird for me, that is definitely douchey, but hey some people have fetishes. I'm going to give Barbrey Ryswell the benefit of the doubt, when she says Brandon wanted her (she has been kind of honest so far), and his betrothal to Catelyn does fit into Lord Rickard's "southern ambitions". I do not think that Brandon slept with Ashara, it seems to me that all the Stark children of Rickard were close, and we know how Ned loved Brandon and Lyanna, so I can't see Brandon destroying that relationship with his little brother.

Brandon's actions in KL were justified, if you ask me. He was going to retrieve his kidnapped sister. The situation with Brandon and women, is completely different from what Rhaegar did with Lyanna. Brandon simply slept with women, Rhaegar ran off with a betrothed high born women (betrothed to a high lord of a Great House, and the daughter of a Lord of a Great House). Rhaegar was in the wrong, a King's power is derived from his vassals, and he greatly dishonored two of his most powerful vassals when he ran off/kidnapped Lyanna. Brandon's "come out and die" could have been a challenge for a duel, or a trial by combat for Lyanna's return. Either way, as the heir to a Great House, especially the Starks, Brandon has the right to demand his sister's return, no matter how he words it.

I can see how some people would think Brandon is a douche, but I don't agree. He slept with women (as everyone does), but seemed to care about them. He called for violence when he thought his sister was kidnapped and possibly being raped, I can not fault him for this either. Most of Brandon's actions seem to be within the realm of how I think most high born men would act.

[DavosSeaworthy]

I've always assumed it was Ned who bedded Ashara. Yes, Ned is honourable, but he was what 17 at the time? The only honour any 17 year old boy would know is get on her and stay on her. If he got a chance he would have taken it. Also, isn't it well known that she was into Ned and not Brandon?

[kissdbyfire]

We don't really get that much info on Brandon. We hear odd bits here and there, and some of it at least may be very unreliable. I always understood that we do get the bits we do to help illustrate the whole 'Stark wolf blood' thing. In a way, so that we'd understand that the Starks have that wild side, and not all of them were like

Eddard. In fact, Eddard may be in the minority.

[StarkSupporter]

I may need clarification on this, but I was of the opinion being "dishonored" meant you were with child out of wedlock and not that maidenhead had been taken out of wedlock.

I think it can go anyway. IIRC there is a mention of how riding a horse can make a high born girl loose her maidenhead. So it would be difficult to tell if an unmarried high born girl was a virgin, unless she was pregnant, or caught with a man.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The only reason i think Brandon was semi-douchey is because he was hot-headed. And that leads to douchey actions and rash behavior. And...doom.