Brandon Stark, the douchebag?

[corbon]

Ned never said that Brandon's reaction was wrong either. It is moments like these that determine a good leader. Act in a reckless manner and the game is lost.

Ned never had a chance to. But even Hoster Tully said Brandon's actions were wrong.

Robert's rebellion technically started when Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark. The war of the five kings when Catelyn Stark took Tyrion. Poor Starks, brave people terrible judgement...

Err, no. Robert's rebellion started only when Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads, to add to Rickard and Brandons, and Jon Arryn said "Nuts!" Before that there was no rebellio, not even by the Starks (note Rickard came south to defend his son at trial, not to rebel) and Robert was not involved in any way.

The War of the 5 Kings started when Robert died, Cersei had Eddard Stark arrested and that freed Tywin to openly war against the Riverlands. Before that there was a local guerilla conflict starting in the riverlands, but not yet escalating into war, until Lannister forces openly crossed Tully borders and thrashed Vance and Piper at the Battle of the Golden Tooth.

[Batman]

Ned was closer to Robert than Brandon, but I still hope he didnt bang Ashara. I really hope that Ned got some from a hot Dornish woman, he deserves it considering what came later.

[Ser Lepus]

Frankly I find the thinking that makes Brother B automatically a douchebag in this situation somewhat barbaric. It turns Girl B into an object with no agency and means the only important thing becomes 'who called dibs first' between the brothers. What a disgusting way to work out relationships!

If Ashara were just another one in a list of conquests for Brandon, but Ned was in love with her, Brandon would be hurting his little brother just to get some one-night-stand sex. He could have banged somebody else; Brandon already knew he would marry Catelyn, it's not as if he were pursuing a serious relationship with Ashara.

[corbon]

If Ashara were just another one in a list of conquests for Brandon, but Ned was in love with her, Brandon would be hurting his little brother just to get some one-night-stand sex. He could have banged somebody else; Brandon already knew he would marry Catelyn, it's not as if he were pursuing a serious relationship with Ashara.

Yes, but the point is that we don't know that this is the case.

Its the simple "Brandon banged the girl his brother liked, therefore he is a douchebag regardless of the circumstances" assumption that I despise. If she was just one of many conquests, if Ned truly liked her, if Ned made a 'claim' first, if Ashara didn't choose/pursue Brandon, if Ashar didn't actually reject the idea of Ned, etc etc etc, then Brandon might well be acting like a douche.

But we don't know any of those things.

All we know is that Ned was shy, Brandon asked her to dance with him. later she was dishonoured, and later she looked to a Stark.

Several years later we have differently-attributable rumours that Ned and Ashara were in love/had a baby.

[Danelle]

Are you forgetting something? Did Lyanna threw mad king's daughter out of the windows while being a guest in Kings Landing?? Tyrion was a potential suspect with evidence(flawed) behind it. And Cat took him on the name of kings justice. As far as I know, she didn't rape Tyrion.

Jaime started the war of the five kings when he threw innocent boy out of the window while being guest in his house.

Cat finds out that Jaime threw Bran at CoK. She is surprised by the fact that both Lannisters deny to have sent an assassin to kill the boy while he was in a coma. You approach the story as a reader and forget that the characters ignore things that we know. Cat when she took Tyrion as a prisoner she was under the impression that Bran slipped and fall.She had made her son promise not to climb ever again. No one in Winterfell was surprised when news of Bran's fall reached them. Cat was after the man who hired the assassin and she was eager to trust the word of the man who had an unhealthy obsession with her. So when the opportunity rose, she captured a dwarf, forced him to travel all the way to Eyrie, presented him to her insane sister who locked him in a sky cell and put him on trial. Even after Tyrion left Eyrie he survived the mountain clans thanks to his wit. Cat was with Brandon when he found out about Lyanna's abduction. She should have known what it means to lose a sibling to someone stronger. Also the only person who claims that Lyanna was raped was Robert Baratheon, the same person who raped his wife for years. I can't blame Brandon for acting like that though and I can't blame Jaime. Most of my favourite characters are Starks but this doesn't mean they don't act in a foolish manner. So the Starks are allowed to act recklessly but the Lannisters are not? The way I see it,the Stark approach in the incident with Tyrion was hypocritical. I don't mind if others disagree though.

[corbon]

Cat when she took Tyrion as a prisoner she was under the impression that Bran slipped and fall.

This is not entirely accurate. Once there was an assassination attempt, Cat surmised (correctly) that the fall was not just a fall but that the boy had seen something he should not - there was no other reason to assassinate him. It was the mere fact of the assassination attempt that made her suspect that fall was not a fall.

Initially she guessed Lannisters, due to Lysa's letter, and assumed Brandon had seen something with the Lannisters plotting (not the incest). The evidence of Tyrions knife (false, but easily confirmed in a trial, so very dangerous for Littlefinger to lie about) merely 'confirmed' Lannister involvement, pinpointing Tyrion for the assassination, presumably to support his family's plottings.

The rest of your characterisation if events is so far from accurate, at least from her point of view, its not funny. Very guilty of taking outside reader knowledge, not the character's perspective and knowledge.

[The Fallen]

` Not to mention that Cat avoided Tyrion when she came across him at the Inn. It was the singer who brought attention to her and that was when Tyrion noticed her.

[Danelle]

This is not entirely accurate. Once there was an assassination attempt, Cat surmised (correctly) that the fall was not just a fall but that the boy had seen something he should not - there was no other reason to assassinate him. It was the mere fact of the assassination attempt that made her suspect that fall was not a fall.

Initially she guessed Lannisters, due to Lysa's letter, and assumed Brandon had seen something with the Lannisters plotting (not the incest). The evidence of Tyrions knife (false, but easily confirmed in a trial, so very dangerous for Littlefinger to lie about) merely 'confirmed' Lannister involvement, pinpointing Tyrion for the assassination, presumably to support his family's plottings.

The rest of your characterisation if events is so far from accurate, at least from her point of view, its not funny. Very guilty of taking outside reader knowledge, not the character's perspective and knowledge.

I simply approach the events as they were told. Brandon was told that Lyanna was taken by none other than Prince Rhaegar. His little sister. So he stormed into KL demanding for revenge. And we know what happened next. Brandon reaction was similar to Jaime's when he found out that his baby brother was prisoner of the Starks. I am not going to perpetuate the discussion any further but since the Stark family knew what the abduction of a family member meant and Lyanna's abduction started the war and gave Aerys pretext to demand the heads of Ned and Robert, Cat ought to have been more careful. Just like Lyanna's abduction was the first of many tragic events which led to Robert crowned as King. If Mace Tyrell or Balon Greyjoy or Doran Martell had been in Cat's place perhaps they would have killed Tyrion without a trial or even refused him the right to ask for a champion. But they are not Starks and therefore their action wouldn't be hypocritical, since they had not known the pain of losing a family member in that manner. History repeats itself. Feel free to object.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I will say the If Brandon was engaged to Cat, after cuting up Littlefinger, went to talk to Ashara for Ned, and then turned around and sleep with her himself, He would be a douchebag.

But I don't think he slept with Ashara, I think that was Ned.

[Torron]

I don't know, but Rickard and Brandon were obviously idiots. You do not go up to a psychopathic king and demand that his son come out and die. I don't know what they expected to happen, but they deserved to die simply for being moronic.

[LordBloodraven]

I don't know, but Rickard and Brandon were obviously idiots. You do not go up to a psychopathic king and demand that his son come out and die. I don't know what they expected to happen, but they deserved to die simply for being moronic.

It was Brandon who went to KL and the "come out and die" bit is far from being certain. Rickard went to answer for his son's crimes and was killed for that

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No I cannot see him as a douchebag. He was a Casanova, hot blooded, confident. Long post short he was a Knight templar/big brother

He dishonoured several noble women and yet blew his top off when it happened to be his sister

We only know about Lady Dustin... and she went willingly. When for Lyanna, there is no way to know that.

[eggs]

first off all i don't think brandon slept with ashara

he had an eye for the ladies and I wouldn't be surprised if lady dustin has a bastard by him hidden in barrowton

I agree. I doubt Brandon would sleep with a girl he knew his brother liked.

Ned Dayne says that Eddard Stark loved Ashara, not that he slept with her. It's perfectly possible that Ashara didn't feel impressed by young, shy Eddard, and felt attracted to older, bold Brandon. Brandon could have sleeped with the girl Eddard liked, which would make him an even greater douchebag.

No, Ned says that they fell in love at Harrenhall:

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal - "

That's information that comes straight from Ashara's own sister.

[Naathi Prince]

People love to criticize Brandon apparently, but they seem to have selective memories. Afterall, Gatehouse Ami seems to know a few groomsmen quite well and there's no mention of them being hanged. Attacking Brandon Stark for sleeping with multiple women is extraordinarily shallow. After all, his relationship with Barbrey Ryswell did not prevent her from being married to William Dustin, the Lord of Barrowton, which was a very good marriage until he died. There's no mention of Brandon "dishonoring" other maidens, and we have nothing but a single non-commital throwaway line by Ser Barristan to suggest that he impregnated Ashara Dayne. It simply doesn't stand up. Even if we were sure that Brandon slept with Ashara and impregnated her, she killed herself for her own reasons and blaming Brandon is still silly. For all the high-minded morality I see here, I don't see a lot of consequences for Brandon's choices when it comes to sex, and its especially hypocritical when people who are fans of Dany, Rhaegar, Prince Oberyn, etc. do it. The fact is that no matter what the prevailing morality of the day is, there are always those who willfully ignore it. The handsome, charismatic ones get away with it. It is almost expected.

The other tact people take when attacking Brandon is attacking him for charging to Kings Landing and challenging Rhaegar. The criticism here is also pretty misguided. Some people have suggested that he should have "looked for her elsewhere" or otherwise changed his course. Thats based on knowledge they have, but Brandon did not have. Brandon rode to Kings Landing under the assumption that that is where Rhaegar took his sister. There was absolutely no reason to suspect that she was holed up in a Tower in the Dornish desert. He also did not ride alone. Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister, all sons of either High Lords or powerful bannermen, rode with him. All of their houses are known for wisdom and honor as well, and their joining his cause lends credence to his action. Any time you end up rationalizing or defending the acts of Aerys Targaryen, you have probably lost the argument.

So, to conclude, Brandon Stark was not Ned, but he's not a villain either.

[corbon]

I agree. I doubt Brandon would sleep with a girl he knew his brother liked.

No, Ned says that they fell in love at Harrenhall:

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal - "

That's information that comes straight from Ashara's own sister.

Sigh. Same old same old.

Allyria, who his been betrothed to Berris Dondarrion for 6 years. Berric Dondarrion is in his early 20s (23?). Why haven't they been married yet? The usual reason is that one or both of them are not considered old enough yet. So if after 6 years of betrothal, Allyria Dayne is not yet married to 23 year old Lord Berric Dondarion, how old is she?

Unless she is a comparative 'old maid', she's not exactly a first class source on the secret love life of her big sister that died around 20 years ago. :bang:

People love to criticize Brandon apparently, but they seem to have selective memories. Afterall, Gatehouse Ami seems to know a few groomsmen quite well and there's no mention of them being hanged. Attacking Brandon Stark for sleeping with multiple women is extraordinarily shallow.

Is there that much criticism?

Sleeping with one noble maiden usually cited as a reason why Brandon might just be a little more in character to have slept with another unmarried maiden, as opposed to Ned, for whom it is absolutely out of character. Not that its a terrible thing, just that someone who does something slightless less than pure once, is more likely to have done so a second time than someone with the character and reputation of Ned Stark.

After all, his relationship with Barbrey Ryswell did not prevent her from being married to William Dustin, the Lord of Barrowton, which was a very good marriage until he died. There's no mention of Brandon "dishonoring" other maidens, and we have nothing but a single non-commital throwaway line by Ser Barristan to suggest that he impregnated Ashara Dayne. It simply doesn't stand up.

There is a lot more to it than that, but I guess you need to reread, or read around a bit.

The other tact people take when attacking Brandon is attacking him for charging to Kings Landing and challenging Rhaegar. The criticism here is also pretty misguided.

Some people have suggested that he should have "looked for her elsewhere" or otherwise changed his course. Thats based on knowledge they have, but Brandon did not have. Brandon rode to Kings Landing under the assumption that that is where Rhaegar took his sister. There was absolutely no reason to suspect that she was holed up in a Tower in the Dornish desert. He also did not ride alone. Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister, all sons of either High Lords or powerful bannermen, rode with him. All of their houses are known for wisdom and honor as well, and their joining his cause lends credence to his action. Any time you end up rationalizing or defending the acts of Aerys Targaryen, you have probably lost the argument.

So, to conclude, Brandon Stark was not Ned, but he's not a villain either.

:bang:

Its not that he went to Kl and challenged Rhaegar, its the frikken moronically stupid method. There is zero chance of any positive result from what he did. It could not be a more useless action if he planned it for pure incompetence and uselessness.

Just going there wasn't smart - Hoster Tulley called him a fool and tried to dissuade him - before he pulled out his moronic methodology. But it was how he went about things once he got there that makes him an incredible douche.

And those companions? A bunch of boys and young men. Arguing that they were wise and honourable is a joke. They were foolish boys, young dumb and full of ...testosterone, the same as boys their age always have been and always will be. And they followed the foolish Wild Wolf to their doom.

[Naathi Prince]

Hoster Tully tried to dissuade him because Brandon Stark being alive and marrying his daughter, Catelyn Tully, was more important to him than Lyanna Stark being alive and marrying Robert Baratheon. I suspect Brandon felt differently than that. Riding to KL and demanding a duel to the death with Rhaegar was not a genius move, but its an understandable one. It is the move of a young man, granted, but that doesn't make it wrong. What was wrong was Rhaegar kidnapping his sister and Aerys burning his father to death.

I am sorry, but trying to save your sister after someone kidnapped her is not douchey. What other options did he have "pretty please send her back?" Sorry, not cutting it in Westeros. If Rhaegar had gone back to the Red Keep, he would have come out to fight Brandon and died.

As far as Elbert Arryn, Royce, and Mallister are concerned, Elbert was the heir to the Vale, someone Jon Arryn was pleased with enough that he didn't look for a new wife to have sons with until after Elbert died. Royce was the son of the greatest Vale bannerman, and Mallister is a universally respected last name. Look at the way people treat Ser Denys, the way Lord Tywin explains that he expects Jason Mallister to fight on even when his cause is finished. If you want to dismiss a bunch of characters we have never met, that's your prerogative, but its still foolish.

[eggs]

Sigh. Same old same old.

Allyria, who his been betrothed to Berris Dondarrion for 6 years. Berric Dondarrion is in his early 20s (23?). Why haven't they been married yet? The usual reason is that one or both of them are not considered old enough yet. So if after 6 years of betrothal, Allyria Dayne is not yet married to 23 year old Lord Berric Dondarion, how old is she?

Unless she is a comparative 'old maid', she's not exactly a first class source on the secret love life of her big sister that died around 20 years ago. :bang:

Her age doesnt really matter. If she was feeding Ned false information then surely there would be someone to correct her.....unless you think that Ashara's personal life was a closely gaurded secret even at her own home.

[Naathi Prince]

Her age doesnt really matter. If she was feeding Ned false information then surely there would be someone to correct her.....unless you think that Ashara's personal life was a closely gaurded secret even at her own home.

This as well, Allyria could easily have been told the story by the various servants who would know.

[Red Magic]

Ashara was raped by Aerys and turned to Brandon for comfort. It is known. Brandon died and she killed herself in grief. Brandon nor Ned never dishonoured her.

[Naathi Prince]

Ashara was raped by Aerys and turned to Brandon for comfort. It is known. Brandon died and she killed herself in grief. Brandon nor Ned never dishonoured her.

From where? Makes sense but what suggests it