Brandon Stark, the douchebag?

[Ser_Patreck]

But we only know about one -Dustin- and they seemed to have a closer relationship.

Not to mention that he was single when he had that relationship unlike someone else who kidnapped-eloped a teen and was married...

Technicality: He was engaged.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Technicality: He was engaged.

Brandon enganged Cat after his relationship with BD

[Naathi Prince]

Technicality: He was engaged.

We are not given a date and time when Brandon got engaged to Catelyn Stark, AND we are led to believe by Barbrey Rysell that he found out while they were dating.

[Cruella]

Ned obviously nursed a pretty big crush on Ashara,

We have no idea, actually. We also don't know if Brandon liked her and had heavy flirting going on before Ned told him he'd like to dance with her. It could be that siblings were pushing Ned to dance with someone, and he choose of all people Ashara.

Hell, we don't even know if there was something between them! Maybe she slept with third guy, and then turned to Ned for comfort, or whatever.

Anyway, if your relationship with a woman consist (potentially) from a single dance, and then you find out she has an affair with your brother, a normal person mutters "asshole" and gets over that, not carries a grudge for decades (long after said brother was killed horribly). That's Littlefingery behavior, and that dude at least knew Catelyn for ages. How could Ned have deep feelings for Ashara when they in all likehood just met at Harrenhall? I don't consider it a big crush if you never had good conversation with a person even. "That chick seems hot from afar" doesn't seem like big crush to me.

[Naathi Prince]

We have no idea, actually. We also don't know if Brandon liked her and had heavy flirting going on before Ned told him he'd like to dance with her. It could be that siblings were pushing Ned to dance with someone, and he choose of all people Ashara.

Hell, we don't even know if there was something between them! Maybe she slept with third guy, and then turned to Ned for comfort, or whatever.

Anyway, if your relationship with a woman consist (potentially) from a single dance, and then you find out she has an affair with your brother, a normal person mutters "asshole" and gets over that, not carries a grudge for decades (long after said brother was killed horribly). That's Littlefingery behavior, and that dude at least knew Catelyn for ages. How could Ned have deep feelings for Ashara when they in all likehood just met at Harrenhall? I don't consider it a big crush if you never had good conversation with a person even. "That chick seems hot from afar" doesn't seem like big crush to me.

So there's no "decades" involved here, number one, and number two, as I said before there's pretty much no evidence that Brandon slept with Ashara in the first place. I still maintain that, no matter what the level of commitment between Ned and Ashara was, Brandon isn't touching her, because he has plenty of other options and why risk upsetting his loyal dutiful brother?

[LordBloodraven]

Robert would wine and dine women and then forget they existed. Brandon appears to have actually had a relationship with Barbrey Ryswell.

This. Honestly, Robert cared only about one thing and Brandon, from the way Lady Dustin describes him, seems to have cared for her. I don't think that any woman could say that of Robert Baratheon

[David Selig]

We are not given a date and time when Brandon got engaged to Catelyn Stark

We are - when Catelyn was 12.

"And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

[They see me R'hollin]

Isn't most of this coming off the back of Selmy too who himself harboured affections for Ashara? I'm not saying he's biased but he seems to resent the fact that Ashara didn't "turn" to him...

[Cruella]

decades

You're right, it's probably less than two decades, or just two decades, I am bad with numbers. (Age of Jon plus some years) Still helluva time to feel angry towards older brother because he slept with your once upon a time crush, considering that Ned doesn't think badly about Aerys even (I mean, he must think badly of him, but we don't see his thoughts about him - quite possible he didn't spare time to hate his brother, either). I seriously don't see Ned having angry feelings towards his dead brother who was killed horribly along with his dad. Ned who could calmly talk with Cersei and wonder if Catelyn would do what she did to protect their children? His one thought "Everything was meant for Brandon" actually supports the theory. Maybe he was upset at the time, I am pretty sure he'd forgive Brandon seeing how he's mature grown man with family of his own.

When man and woman have serious hots for each other and chemistry, "I can find another chick to fuck" doesn't always work, you know. People risk their necks to satisfy desire, including people who could get other sex partners at less risk, let alone risking upsetting your little brother, who, for all we know, never had a chance with Ashara who was hanging out with older, more confident men. And we're talking about someone so impulsive as to act almost with no regard to his safety. Why scream at heir to the throne to come out and die? Surely not for logical, well thought out reasons.

I am not 100% convinced they slept together, I just don't buy your arguments.

Right now, we don't know. Just like we don't know if Ned had any chance whatsoever with Ashara or she was just humouring a guy who might seem still like a kid to her, compared to other men around her. and whether Ned dreamt about her or thought she's a cool chick he wouldn't mind dancing with.

[Ser_Patreck]

This. Honestly, Robert cared only about one thing and Brandon, from the way Lady Dustin describes him, seems to have cared for her. I don't think that any woman could say that of Robert Baratheon

People give Barbrey WAY too much credibility here. So, she believes Brandon told her he didn't love Catelyn. She also believes he was sincere and would leave Catelyn for her if she could.

Yeah, right, because every man that tell his mistress "I'll divorce her for you, I promise" is totally telling the truth and keeps his word, right?

Barbrey's recollections reek of rose-tinted glasses and, more that that, romantic self-delusion.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

Given that he paraded in front of the King and yelled in his face rather than trying to find his sister. I can only assume that it wasn't in the forefront of his mind. He was after vengence and felt it was more important to have a big man moment in front of the King; rather than find his sister. That is selfish and disgusting. He travelled hundreds of miles and the best thing he thought he could do with his time was to hurl spit at the King?

Actually, in a patriarchy pre-marital sex for women is forbidden and part of being a father was that you made sure your daughter wasn't screwed by a single man. This was very much a matter of family and masculine honour. Brandon was directly insulting other lords with his casual affairs, by the standards of his own society, and only got away with this because he was the heir to Winterfell. He then bitches when Rhaegar does this and goes to avenge his honour. Mans a hypocrite; pure and simple.

He dishonoured Ashara. I assume that implies rape in medieval jargan.

I'm pretty sure this is all sexist.

[Harle The Handsome]

Ashara was raped by Aerys and turned to Brandon for comfort. It is known. Brandon died and she killed herself in grief. Brandon nor Ned never dishonoured her.

From where? Makes sense but what suggests it

Here is a quick synopsis of this theory. Major spoilers if you haven't finished reading ADwD.

While at Harrenhal, Ashara captured the eye and fancy of many men, one of whom happened to be the Mad King. Ashara turned to Ned Stark, who probably went to his brother for advice on what to do. Since it was the king, what could they do? When Rhaegar left with Lyanna, Brandon probably made the conclusion that Rhaegar was carrying on a Targaryan family tradition of raping highborn maidens. With his house's honor at stake he ran off to KL to duel, to the death, Rhaegar.

This theory would explain Brandon's actions. It also may tie in with several other actions revealed in ADwD.

The clue that set off our many conspiracy minded readers was from Barristan Selmy's PoV, discussing the regrets he had at Harrenhal. Had he not been unhorsed by Rhaegar, perhaps she would have turned to him instead of the Stark boy. He also mentioned that Ashara's daughter was stillborn and that she threw herself into the sea in grief for her loss and, perhaps, for the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal.

His words don't quite make sense if a Stark dishonored her at Harrenhal. Brandon died at the start of Robert's rebellion, so one would presume she had ample time to get over her grief, and Ned isn't dead yet. So what if it was someone else? A question that gnaws on the conspiracy minded reader is, "How did Selmy know this stuff?" Two possible reasons:

1.) While on kingsguard duties, Barristan overheard Ned and Ashara asking Aerys for the King's justice to be meted out. However, if this were the case, why was nothing done by the king? After all, a highborn maiden's honor was at stake.

2.) While on kingsguard duties, Barristan had to guard Aerys while he dishonored Ashara.

The second possibility better explains how he knew she was dishonored. It also explains why Barristan may have thought she felt grief for the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal (she threw herself into the sea shortly after the fall of King's Landing). However-and this is where the conspiracy gets really interesting-perhaps the stillborn daughter was a ruse and she had a son. Varys claims to have switched Aegon and sent the real one to Essos before the fall of King's Landing. What if her son, the bastard get of Aerys was the young boy killed in the fall of KL?

This is all speculation but the circumstantial evidence is quite compelling.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I'm pretty sure this is all sexist.

Indeed. It's not as if Brandon Stark screwed all the highborn maidens or something, and he surely did not rape them. Brandon acted as a big brother there, and as the heir to Winterfell. While it was still a stupid action, it is a completely understandable one and one far from hypocritical. Brandon was convinced his sister was being raped by the crown prince, the crown prince had abducted her, for someone's sake, and he thought they were in King's Landing, which is also an understandable thought. His ''Come out and die'' is stupid to yell, but not hypocritical. I mean, what should he have done? ''Hey, Aerys, I heard something like. Ya son is raping ma sisterr. You know, that's not cool man. Want her back.'' Come on.

Besides, it is not even sure whether Brandon ''dishonored'' Ashara, and it is surely not rape, not even in medieval jargon. Robb Stark dishonored Jeyne Westerling and decided to marry her, does it make that rape? No.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Indeed. It's not as if Brandon Stark screwed all the highborn maidens or something, and he surely did not rape them. Brandon acted as a big brother there, and as the heir to Winterfell. While it was still a stupid action, it is a completely understandable one and one far from hypocritical. Brandon was convinced his sister was being raped by the crown prince, the crown prince had abducted her, for someone's sake, and he thought they were in King's Landing, which is also an understandable thought. His ''Come out and die'' is stupid to yell, but not hypocritical. I mean, what should he have done? ''Hey, Aerys, I heard something like. Ya son is raping ma sisterr. You know, that's not cool man. Want her back.'' Come on.

Besides, it is not even sure whether Brandon ''dishonored'' Ashara, and it is surely not rape, not even in medieval jargon. Robb Stark dishonored Jeyne Westerling and decided to marry her, does it make that rape? No.

I miss the like button.

I agree. "Dishonoring" isn't rape. Also how can anyone be dishonored if he/she had done something willingly?

As for Ashara. I don't think that in the Dornish society and their general sexual liberation there is such think as "dishonoring".

[Ludd]

I think we can be sure that Ned did not dishonour or hurt Ashara Dayne. Ned Dayne is named for him. If Ned had been dishonourable I think that the Dayne family would have chosen ANY other name for the heir of Starfall

[David Selig]

Ned Dayne's actual name is Edric, not Eddard.

[Naathi Prince]

Ned Dayne's actual name is Edric, not Eddard.

and Robb Stark's name is Robb, not Robert. He's still named for Robert Baratheon

[Aegon IV]

I agree. "Dishonoring" isn't rape. Also how can anyone be dishonored if he/she had done something willingly?

As for Ashara. I don't think that in the Dornish society and their general sexual liberation there is such think as "dishonoring".

I believe the dishonouring is more about her no longer being a maiden, which means she will fetch either a lesser Lord in a marriage or less of a dowry, etc. This is why Hoster had to arrange Lysa's marriage to Arryn instead of possibly a better house in the South as she was already dishonoured by Petyr.

[VaramyrSixchins]

There is a bit of a misinterpretation going on here that should be clarified. I have seen that Barristan said Brandon "dishonored" Ashara and I have seen Barristan said she was "dishonored" and then turned to a Stark. Those two notions are incorrect see "The King Breaker" in ADWD

"..., and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

He never mentions Brandon's name for one, and he's definitely not saying that she was dishonored and THEN turned to a Stark. As I stated before he was never clear on which Stark "dishonored" Ashara, but Edric Dayne's details of those exact events suggest that is was Ned and not Brandon that dishonored his aunt.

[VaramyrSixchins]

But the overall theme of Barristan's musings is what would have happened had he revealed his love for Ashara. He thinks 1, it would have prevented Rhaegar from crowning Lyanna, thus possibly preventing war and 2, possibly prevented Ashara from being 'dishonored", thus knocked up, thus non-suicidal. "Looked to Stark " in this context, could only mean he suspects a Stark to be the a father of the stillborn girl. Ned Dayne maintains that not only were Ned and Ashasra in love, but Ned Stark knocked up Wylla. NOTHING indicates that Ned Stark would EVER have a sexual relationship with the. servant of the woman he loves, so what reason would Ned Dayne have to assert this? It has to be the stillbirth. If a Stark is the father, then everything we have been told about Brandon--rash, emotional, not above premarital sex, wild wolf, etc. indicates he is far more likely to engage in sex w Ashara than Ned.