So.. Okay, Margaery Tyrell is a lesbian?

[Blueberry Stark]

First of all, let's move beyond labeling Margaery as gay, bi, or straight. That may be how we understand sexual orientation now but it's a social construct that didn't exist before the 19th century. It makes more sense to discuss whether or not she's sexually and/or romantically interested in women. Also, at least when it came to the upper class, men and women did not let their sexual orientation stop them from marrying people of the opposite sex. This shouldn't be surprising given that people mostly married for political reasons and not for love.

So the real question is whether or not Margaery is into women. I've thought about this a bit since Margaery is one of my favorite characters and while I don't think there's conclusive evidence in the books one way or the other I tend to lean towards thinking that she is.

Here are the reasons why I think Margaery probably likes girls:

1. In ASoIaF siblings frequently reflect one another. The best example of this is Jaime and Cersei. Since Loras and Margaery are foils for Jaime and Cersei it makes sense that they are also mirror each other closely. Ergo conjecturing that Margaery, like Loras, is into people of the same sex is logical given other sibling relationships in the series.

2. She's constantly surrounded by young women. Given how much incest there is in the books I don't think it matters much whether or not they're related to her. Now, it wasn't uncommon for girls to share beds with each other or for very highborn ladies to have large entourages so the first time I read the series I didn't think much of it. But upon rereading the books I realized there was a LOT of emphasis put on both the bed-sharing and on how much time Margaery spends frolicking with other young women. That's not true of any of the other female characters.

3. She has a real knack for marrying guys who will never demand sex from her, at least not on a regular basis (Renly) or anytime soon (Tommen). (Joffrey doesn't count since they were only married very briefly and she always intended to off him before their wedding night.) This suggests that she actively works to avoid having to interact sexually with men. Other than the fact that she never gets involved with a man (which is honestly just politically astute) this is the only thing that suggests that she's not at all interested in men.

Also, In the TV show it's pretty obvious that Margaery is into girls given that scene she has with Sansa. Now, usually I would say that that's the show and not the books. But since GRRM wrote that particular episode I tend to think that it's relevant.

Still, it's a hard call and there's not enough evidence in the books for me to feel comfortable making any definitive judgments about Margaery's sexual orientation. Maybe we'll get more information in future books.

Martin has deliberately made all things sexual with Margaery ambiguous - is she a virgin, does she have a lover, Cersei's thoughts about her and Loras, the entourage of female bedmates, etc. However, I don't see the frequency of marriages that can't be consummated as compelling evidence of possible lesbianism. With all three of her marriages she was marrying for political gain, as women in her position did at the time. Renley was homosexual, which she undoubtedly knew, but an alliance between them made sense politically. Joffery would have consummated the marriage, however, the guy didn't live long enough to be able to. Finally, Tommen obviously solves the problem of Joffery' s death ending the new alliance, so marrying him also makes political sense. Since all of Margaery's marriages seem to result in her political gain, I would assert that she's not marrying these guys to avoid heterosexual sex, but rather to be a queen.

Finally, although I don't necessarily think that it's definitive proof for or against her homosexuality, one possible reason that her number of bedmates is emphasized may be because it comes into importance during her trial. I'm sure that M's cousins/friends will swear that no men visited her because they were with her (another reason why unmarried noblewomen rarely slept alone).

[lifefullofwords]

Martin has deliberately made all things sexual with Margaery ambiguous - is she a virgin, does she have a lover, Cersei's thoughts about her and Loras, the entourage of female bedmates, etc. However, I don't see the frequency of marriages that can't be consummated as compelling evidence of possible lesbianism. With all three of her marriages she was marrying for political gain, as women in her position did at the time. Renley was homosexual, which she undoubtedly knew, but an alliance between them made sense politically. Joffery would have consummated the marriage, however, the guy didn't live long enough to be able to. Finally, Tommen obviously solves the problem of Joffery' s death ending the new alliance, so marrying him also makes political sense. Since all of Margaery's marriages seem to result in her political gain, I would assert that she's not marrying these guys to avoid heterosexual sex, but rather to be a queen.

Obviously she didn't marry those guys just to avoid heterosexual sex, I didn't mean to imply that. I figured it was obvious that Margaery's primary goal is to becomes queen. I just think it's an odd pattern, and one I've taken notice of. If it weren't a possible part of a larger pattern I would think nothing of it.

Finally, although I don't necessarily think that it's definitive proof for or against her homosexuality, one possible reason that her number of bedmates is emphasized may be because it comes into importance during her trial. I'm sure that M's cousins/friends will swear that no men visited her because they were with her (another reason why unmarried noblewomen rarely slept alone).

Very good point about the bedmates but that doesn't explain the emphasis on the time she spend with her ladies during the day, how much she enjoys the company of women, etc.

[Blueberry Stark]

To MargaeryTyrell - I think that you bring up a lot of interesting points about M, I've just never thought of her as gay. I am currently doing a reread of the series though, and I'll be sure to notice the evidence that you've presented my next go around. One final note about Margaery and her collection of female friends and cousins. I always juxtaposed Margaery's abundance of female companionship with Sansa's complete lack thereof. In doing do, I always saw the reason for her number of female friends/cousins being to testify for her innocence during her trial, and as a plot device to make Sansa trust her (M's a girl's girl, Sansa wants companionship, etc). I look forward to looking at these scenes from a different perspective though.

[Silverscream]

Obviously she didn't marry those guys just to avoid heterosexual sex, I didn't mean to imply that. I figured it was obvious that Margaery's primary goal is to becomes queen. I just think it's an odd pattern, and one I've taken notice of. If it weren't a possible part of a larger pattern I would think nothing of it.

Very good point about the bedmates but that doesn't explain the emphasis on the time she spend with her ladies during the day, how much she enjoys the company of women, etc.

Mace is the person who wants Margaery to be queen, not her. And if Petyr is right about her (which he probably isn't) then keeping her maidenhead or her crown isn't high on her wishlist. I don't think using the nonconsummation of her marriages can be used as proof for her sexuality - Renly is gay, Joffrey's a monster, and Tommen's too young. Assuming she was in on the plan to marry Robert, she definitely wouldn't have been able to avoid having sex with him.

As for the ladies, the reason they are constantly around is explained in the text: a maidenhead shield. It's the whole point as to why Osney failed to deflower her - she's constantly surrounded, either by other women, or even some men. I'm pretty sure it's meant to be a juxtaposition to Cersei, who has a whole paragraph dedicated to how little bedmaids she's had because she doesn't trust them. Not to mention, but her ladies aren't exactly prime material to sleep with. One's pregnant and another one is eight. Besides, Cersei and Qyburn pay the guards outside her room for information, if she was having sex with anyone, Cersei'd know.

Which doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy having sex with women, but that any proof is pretty minimal. Her younger cousins play kissing games with each other, maybe they learned it from Margaery? And Taena seems to be experienced with having sex with other women.

[Blueberry Stark]

Sorry to post so soon again, but I just thought about Taena. Didn't she start out as part of Margaery's entourage before befriending Cersei? If so, Taena certainly is a worldly lady. That's not to say that Margaery has to be a lesbian because she's friends with someone who engages in a homosexual act, but I think that Taena's apparent sexual experience does lead one to question just how virginal the ladies that Margaery keeps company with actually are.

[the trees have eyes]

Obviously she didn't marry those guys just to avoid heterosexual sex, I didn't mean to imply that. I figured it was obvious that Margaery's primary goal is to becomes queen. I just think it's an odd pattern, and one I've taken notice of. If it weren't a possible part of a larger pattern I would think nothing of it.

Very good point about the bedmates but that doesn't explain the emphasis on the time she spend with her ladies during the day, how much she enjoys the company of women, etc.

I thought the whole point of Marge's sleepovers with her cousins was so that she could not be accused of infidelity. The sleepovers are to visibly display to any doubters that a grown woman married to a child had neither the privacy or the opportunity to indulge herself. I find it ironic that her shield against accusations of fornication - which drive Cersei to the ridiculous accusations that all the Tyrell girls were conducting chandelier-swinging orgies with armies of lovers - is instead posited as a lesbo slumber party. And the sexes in a medieval world are supposed to have separate orbits (husband and wife even had separate suites of rooms): it would be quite scandalous if Margaery spent time with any male companions (blood relatives aside). The only people she can spend time with are her ladies in waiting so this is entirely natural, as is her having close friendships with cousins close to her own age. I think this is a perfectly normal depiction of the court lifestyle of a young queen.

[silentwanderer]

Well she may not be a virgin. Her family insists this but i think she has done the deed.

For one, Margarery wouldn't be drinking moon tea if she were still a virgin.

...or a lesbian.

[grand old duke of stark]

Margaery's sexuality is all the means to an end. Whatever her own preferences are (and I surmise she is 'bi'), she does what she has to to gain power for herself and her family. But it is terribly convenient for her to have had three husbands (including Joff, briefly) and very little sexual interference from them. Cersei has said that a woman's sex is her greatest weapon, and that is equally true for Marg.

[Blueberry Stark]

For one, Margarery wouldn't be drinking moon tea if she were still a virgin.

...or a lesbian.

True, but are we sure that she drinks Moon Tea? Who's to say that Pycelle isn't lying for Cersei? Or, perhaps Margaery got the Moon Tea for another girl (which is stupid to do but possible). Right now it's unclear.

[silentwanderer]

Don't get me wrong: I've considered the possibility Pycelle is lying too but, if he's not, it would be stupid to drink it if Margaery were a lesbian.

Even in medieval Westeros, women are fairly aware that other women don't carry any seed.

[lifefullofwords]

Mace is the person who wants Margaery to be queen, not her.

Margaery is clearly super ambitious and has spent most of the book scheming, with her family's help, of course.

Which doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy having sex with women, but that any proof is pretty minimal.

I agree that any evidence in the book is sparse and inconclusive. I said so repeatedly in my original post.

[WhiteWalder]

I don't think Margaery is a lesbian, for the same reason I think Dany is not. Some girls experiment in their teens, and they didn't have a thing called college where it should happen.

Cersei is a different matter. She wanted to be a man before figuring out that she wasn't - in her encounter with Taena.

[2fingers]

Ok, so now that it seems OK to pull stuff out of our asses, I shall do the same.

Let's see here....

...All right...Is Sandor Clegane gay?

Because well he kills a lot of men throughout the books and it seems like he does this to kill "the gayness" out of himself. Also he took a toy (which can be a doll) from Gregor as a kid and well we all know what happened then.

[starklinson]

There's nothing /super/ solid, however, there are a few clues. One that I can remember is Cersei noticing "more similarities" between Marge and Loras. And there's one bit (I don't remember when) where she suggests liking "pretty girls". She's a mystic character, so we don't know for sure, but it's possible that she may be at least bi curious.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Cersei said Margaery her entourage is impolitely big. Which could mean size of her bedtime party is consider strange. Maybe Cersei though her entourage is too big, because she may have wild parties, but we don't hear anything bad from her and young noblewoman do nothing, so they should have fun, just to do something... Which lead to conclusion it's strange for some reason.

Cersei might not be reliable, and might confuse her brother with her, but at that time, I though she was being reliable (I think Martin write that to give us a clue). I also agree with Blueberry Stark, but she doesn't have to have impolitely large entourage, she just needs women people would trust if she needs to call them as her witnesses.

[the trees have eyes]

There's nothing /super/ solid, however, there are a few clues. One that I can remember is Cersei noticing "more similarities" between Marge and Loras. And there's one bit (I don't remember when) where she suggests liking "pretty girls". She's a mystic character, so we don't know for sure, but it's possible that she may be at least bi curious.

This means nothing though. Loras and Margaery are close but so were Ned and Lyanna. Cersei's perceptions are coloured by her own relationship with Jaime and a bout of wishful thinking.

Don't forget that Cersei is looking for ways to bring down a rival. Maggy Frog's prophecy is that one "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear".

Cersei said Margaery her entourage is impolitely big. Which could mean size of her bedtime party is consider strange. Maybe Cersei though her entourage is too big, because she may have wild parties, but we don't hear anything bad from her and young noblewoman do nothing, so they should have fun, just to do something... Which lead to conclusion it's strange for some reason.

Cersei might not be reliable, and might confuse her brother with her, but at that time, I though she was being reliable (I think Martin write that to give us a clue). I also agree with Blueberry Stark, but she doesn't have to have impolitely large entourage, she just needs women people would trust if she needs to call them as her witnesses.

There is nothing strange in this. The size of Margaery's retinue and the number of attendants she has is an indication of power and wealth: it is a very conscious play by the Tyrells to show that they are the power behind the throne.

Margaery is keeping a following around her to show that she is the future Queen. Cersei's paranoia from Maggy's prophecy is fuelled by jealousy at this upstart rival.

It's part of the Tyrells establishing themselves in KL and demonstrating their power while Margaery builds a court circle around her.

And it's a very useful shield against accusations that she was unfaithful to Tommen. Cesei has gambled that she can get one of the younger cousins to crack and give a Shae-style confession in court to damn Margaery. This is Cersei going power crazy but it doesn't mean that Marge's shield is a fake and they are all having a teenage frolic...

[Newstar]

Littlefinger has stated that Margaery will keep her crown and her maidenhead for the time being, neither of which she particularly wants. He could be wrong on both counts--it's interesting that he doesn't seem to think Margaery wants to be queen--but if she doesn't want her maidenhead, that implies that she wouldn't mind heterosexual sex, no? Littlefinger seems like a dude in the know, and he seems to have the Tyrells' number.

I agree about Cersei projecting her own activities--incest, lesbianism, etc.--on to Margaery.

[Martin Lasarte]

I always thought Margaery sharing her bed with her female friends was a way of deflecting any rumours of promiscuity. If she always sleeps with a companion, it's more difficult to accuse her of being unfaithful (of course, in the end Cersei simply also accused her maidens of fornication). There was nothing Sapphic about it.

[chrisdaw]

Margaery is clearly super ambitious and has spent most of the book scheming, with her family's help, of course.

I don't find that clear at all, her behavior and motivations are ambiguous, and it's Petyr's assessment vs Cersei's.

[Benjen of the Kingsguard]

I mean, if she is, that's cool.

But I don't think I'm that oblivious.

I've been bored, jumping around different aSoIaF message boards, tumblrs, etc.

and well...

Why do so many people think Margaery is gay?

I've seen people saying they'll stop watching the show if she's not portrayed as a lesbian because it's not true to the book!?

Basically did I miss something or is this just a certain key demographic of fans?

No offense meant to anyone.

It's probably just tumblr.