Sansa's hold on littlefinger

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think we already saw LF slipping once due to Sansa. Remember the castle of snow and him kissing her? This was an incredible stupid move, because 1. it alarmered Lysa and led to her death (which was dangerous for LF in terms of power maintainance even if he might have planned her death for a later stage of the game) 2. they were in plain sight and everybody could have seen them which could have led people to start questioning her identity.

So I think it is fair to say that we already have seen signs that LF is not his reasonable self when being around Sansa, Now we just need a trigger - like him going to far sexually or Sansa learning about his involvement in Ned´s death or the whole Jeyne Pool thing - and then the bomb will go off...

Not only did Sansa see LF murder Lysa, she heard the whole story about LF telling Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and blame it on the Lannisters. Sansa's still in a state of PTSD coming down the mountain and it doesn't seem to have sunk in, but mark my words, it WILL eventually sink in and in any case, Sansa now has a whole lot of dirt on LF.

In addition, LF is confiding his means of achieving power to Sansa - he tells her right in her face that he operates on lies, BS, blackmail and bribery. He underestimates her just like everyone else does - surely there is no harm in confiding in the "stupid little girl," right? Sansa is far from stupid and I think that underestimating her is going to be his downfall (and perhaps Cersei's as well).

Finally, I think LF is obsessed with having his Catelyn 2.0. He's got a third try at a "Tully" woman and he wants it to succeed - never mind that Sansa is a Stark. I think that the plans to marry her to Harry, make her Lady of the Vale, and take back the North for her, are so much BS, because why should LF tell the truth? He's telling her what he thinks she wants to hear (a handsome, gallant knight to marry her and get back Winterfell for her, thinking of the "old" Sansa but the current Sansa has outgrown the fantasies of knights to the rescue). I think he plans to marry Sansa himself and try to take the North in her name, and get the North AND the Vale under his control, and from there - POWAAH! Unlimited POWAAH! And Catelyn 2.0!

[The Storm Queen]

Not only did Sansa see LF murder Lysa, she heard the whole story about LF telling Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and blame it on the Lannisters. Sansa's still in a state of PTSD coming down the mountain and it doesn't seem to have sunk in, but mark my words, it WILL eventually sink in and in any case, Sansa now has a whole lot of dirt on LF.

In addition, LF is confiding his means of achieving power to Sansa - he tells her right in her face that he operates on lies, BS, blackmail and bribery. He underestimates her just like everyone else does - surely there is no harm in confiding in the "stupid little girl," right? Sansa is far from stupid and I think that underestimating her is going to be his downfall (and perhaps Cersei's as well).

Finally, I think LF is obsessed with having his Catelyn 2.0. He's got a third try at a "Tully" woman and he wants it to succeed - never mind that Sansa is a Stark. I think that the plans to marry her to Harry, make her Lady of the Vale, and take back the North for her, are so much BS, because why should LF tell the truth? He's telling her what he thinks she wants to hear (a handsome, gallant knight to marry her and get back Winterfell for her, thinking of the "old" Sansa but the current Sansa has outgrown the fantasies of knights to the rescue). I think he plans to marry Sansa himself and try to take the North in her name, and get the North AND the Vale under his control, and from there - POWAAH! Unlimited POWAAH! And Catelyn 2.0!

To me this is the ultimative irony behind his obsession. Sansa may look like Cat but in terms of character she ressembles Ned greatly (for example I read her scene with Lancel during Blackwater as parallel to the Ned/Cersei scene in GoT). So if LF really searched Cat 2.0 Arya might have been a better candidate

[Queen Sansa Stark]

To me this is the ultimative irony behind his obsession. Sansa may look like Cat but in terms of character she ressembles Ned greatly (for example I read her scene with Lancel during Blackwater as parallel to the Ned/Cersei scene in GoT). So if LF really searched Cat 2.0 Arya might have been a better candidate

Honestly the statement of Sansa is so like ned is not entirely true. Yes Sansa is the most like Ned out of the Stark children, but Sansa is not completelety like ned. For example Sansa is out the current Stark generation the most political savy. No way in hell does that comes from Ned. That purely comes from catelyn. Sansa would have not been that succesfull in kings landing if she wasn't diplomatic Like Catelyn. So Sansa has the good qualities of BOTH her parents.

But aside this yes i agree with you. Though she may have the tully look. Sansa is throughout a she-wolf and a child from the north. A mistake LF will pay for dearly.

[The Storm Queen]

Honestly the statement of Sansa is so like ned is not entirely true. Yes Sansa is the most like Ned out of the Stark children, but Sansa is not completelety like ned. For example Sansa is out the current Stark generation the most political savy. No way in hell does that comes from Ned. That purely comes from catelyn. Sansa would have not been that succesfull in kings landing if she wasn't diplomatic Like Catelyn. So Sansa has the good qualities of BOTH her parents.

But aside this yes i agree with you. Though she may have the tully look. Sansa is throughout a she-wolf and a child from the north. A mistake LF will pay for dearly.

I totally agree with you, sorry I should have clarified that a bit more. Of course Sansa, and her silblings, are "mixed bags" and there are no pure Ned or Cat copies. But I tend to think that Sansa and Robb show more resemblance with Ned while Bran and Arya are more similar to Cat.

[Elba the Intoner]

Honestly the statement of Sansa is so like ned is not entirely true. Yes Sansa is the most like Ned out of the Stark children, but Sansa is not completelety like ned. For example Sansa is out the current Stark generation the most political savy. No way in hell does that comes from Ned. That purely comes from catelyn. Sansa would have not been that successfull in kings landing if she wasn't diplomatic Like Catelyn. So Sansa has the good qualities of BOTH her parents.

But aside this yes i agree with you. Though she may have the tully look. Sansa is throughout a she-wolf and a child from the north. A mistake LF will pay for dearly.

Yes and no. Ned was clearly not prepared for how politics worked in the South and Cat had a much better understanding of the south for sure. But, Ned instilled great love and loyalty from his bannermen in the North (aside from the Boltons who are abnormal psychos anyway - I mean a flayed man is there sigil for Pete's sake!) Ned knew how to instill that in his bannermen, to the point that they are willing to join with Stannis and risk their lives for Ned's little girl, by meeting with each of them and making them feel important and Sansa seems to know how to do this instinctively as well.

Also, another problem with LF's little plan about marrying Sansa to Harry is that he does not have any idea how much Sansa does not want to be married for her claim anymore. She's really disillusioned about that. She wants someone to love her for herself. Lf doesn't know how strongly Sansa feels about this and even if he did he wouldn't care about that at all. It's just another little hitch in LF's plot.

[Sneak]

Yes that is the beauty of it - there are so many triggers who can set off Sansa right now, I only posted the two of them I thought first of. But it is also likely that she will not allow SR´s murder by LF. I can see some possibilities for her to off LF:

- via the Strangler as Fantasy already pointed out

- via Moondoor which would have a certain irony I´d appreciate

- via the Lord Declarant who seem to be all too happy to be rid off LF

- via Lothar Brune who is in love with Mia who in turn is becoming an ally of Sansa

My guess is either a single assasination Strangler scenario or Sansa framing LF and a subsequent capital punsihment by Moondoor

The Eyrie is closed for the winter so he won't be leaving via the Moon Door;

He's won most of the Lords Declarant over.

But the other two options are plausible.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I am torn between Sansa learning to "keep her hands clean" versus Ned's view that he who passes the sentence shall wield the executioner's sword. Sansa has been brought up with this belief - albeit she was not present when Ned executed the deserter in the opening chapter of GoT - most likely because Ned thought executions were a man's job as Lord of Winterfell. If Sansa feels that LF should die - not just for what he did to her family members, but for fomenting a war that has caused many innocent people to be starved, raped and murdered - will she feel she has to do it herself in a capacity as Lady of Winterfell or Rickon's regent? It's a bit much for a woman of slim build to decapitate someone, though Brienne certainly could do it. Sansa could, I suppose, stab or poison LF. But what I'm wondering is will she feel she has to openly execute him, and if so, do it herself out of Stark honor, or will she get rid of him covertly? Or will she pass the sentence but have someone like Brienne or Sandor do the deed out of practicality?

As far as Tully vs. Stark women - Lysa was willing to marry LF, even tried to pull the shotgun marriage ploy, but Catelyn went all Family, Duty, Honor on Petyr and rejected him for her fiance Brandon Stark. Sansa thinks she has no family or honor left, and I don't know about duty. But I agree 100% with Elba that Sansa does not want to be married for her claim, not by Harry or LF or anyone else - she is sick to death of that. She's not even asking for a shining knight, she just wants someone to love her for herself. On top of all that, claim or no claim, LF is a creepy creep from Planet Creep and while I know he wants Sansa, I shudder at the thought of him winding up with her. :ack:

[voodooqueen126]

Lots of people say that, and I see where they're coming thing. Sometimes the only thing that can bring a strong man to his knees is a beautiful woman. But I don't really think LF is the type. He seems, not quite asexual, but, very much in control of his emotions. His infatuation with cat, although I'm sure it started out as a innocent romantic/sexual attraction, is more with her as a symbol than as a woman. She (the upper class, and by extension power) is what he was denied. Now he's working to get what he believes he deserves. Cat (Sansa) is only a symbol for the end result of his ambition. I think he learned the danger of love at an early age. He's not the type to make the same mistake twice (or even two mistakes in one lifetime).

But I could be wrong.

I think he is a bit cerebral, yet that he constantly makes passes at Sansa-something which she clearly dislikes-means that he cannot be simply using sex to manipulate her (which is how he used sex with Lysa), since he should have figured out that Sansa loathes that sort of contact. So I think he must see sex with Sansa as symbolic of having power.

I don't think it's his desire to possess Sansa that will ultimately bring him down, it's the need he has to show off, to impress her with how powerful and clever he is. That is what is leading him to tell her things he should not be telling anyone.

I think this will certainly play a role: after all, what's the point of doing all of those evil/great things if you have no audience.

http://samvak.tripod...itybubbles.html

http://www.narcissis.../journal56.html

And that is how she will controle him, "you want a tuggie, sure but u need something for me "

I think the only argument against Petyr being a psychopath is that he has not yet committed rape. But I doubt that he is motivated by sexual desire persay-I think he has rather low testosterone (he is little, effeminate and generally unmasculine). Rather I think his sexual passes at Sansa are motivated by a desire to possess and dominate her (the daughter of great houses who rejected him). Though that she looks like Catelyn rather than Ned certainly helps.

I'm inclined to agree with that Littlefinger is not the type to be blinded by love. I don't think he is in love with Sansa, or sees her as a replacement for Catelyn and that it is exactly what he said to Lysa, he has loved "Only Cat". He probably has closed his heart after what happened at Riverrun.

Love may have turned to hate, he did nothing to protect Catelyn or her interests when she was in Kings Landing.

I'm afraid he is one in the long row of people who will use Sansa as a means to their end.

But I can be wrong, GRRM may have some twist in store. I hope it will not be Littlefinger at the end doing a 'Snape' though, that could be a bit tacky.

I don't think Littlefinger loved Catelyn, or that he is capable of love. I would say that he feels only the most shallow emotions. He certainly wants Sansa to possess her and receive narcissistic supply from her-which in his undeveloped psyche-would construe love

I think Sansa is LF's one major weakness right now. It might not be love (I'm not sure the man LF has become is capable of love), but it's certainly some kind of obsession with proving himself brilliant and worthy to Sansa and by extension in his sick mind Catelyn.

I'm torn about it though. I tend to think that LF has not actually "learned" anything from what happened when he was younger with Cat and Brandon. He's just determined to repeat it and "do it right" this time, getting the result he wants. Based on Cersei's remembrance during the Walk of Shame and LF's sick conditioning techniques he's trying to use on "Alayne", I'd still have to think the end goal is marriage to Sansa and by extension Cat. I'm not sure how he's planning on getting there though, as hooking her up with Harry the Heir seems like a very poor and roundabout way of doing it.

I guess from what we know about Harry and Brandon, there actually seems to be a lot of similarities between the two. Maybe LF is set on replaying the Cat/Brandon scenario with Sansa/Harry, except this time he's trying to rig the deck to make her choose him over Harry.

I don't think Petyr is capable of learning from his mistakes, since I don't think he can, or wants to change.

Although Petyr is incapable of love, I still think it is possible for Petyr to be manipulated by Sansa.

I think we already saw LF slipping once due to Sansa. Remember the castle of snow and him kissing her? This was an incredible stupid move, because 1. it alarmered Lysa and led to her death (which was dangerous for LF in terms of power maintainance even if he might have planned her death for a later stage of the game) 2. they were in plain sight and everybody could have seen them which could have led people to start questioning her identity.

So I think it is fair to say that we already have seen signs that LF is not his reasonable self when being around Sansa, Now we just need a trigger - like him going to far sexually or Sansa learning about his involvement in Ned´s death or the whole Jeyne Pool thing - and then the bomb will go off...

Both narcissists and psychopaths tend towards impulsivity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16768652

http://www.sciencedi...191886911001978

I am hopeful that over the next book, Sansa will gradually piece together the clues about Petyr's involvement in Ned's dowfall, Jeyne Poole's enslavement and gross maltreatment, her forced-fraudelent-marriage to Tyrion, hopefully before Sweet Robin dies. That would be so much more satisfactory than Sansa remaining a damsel in distress...

Honestly the statement of Sansa is so like ned is not entirely true. Yes Sansa is the most like Ned out of the Stark children, but Sansa is not completelety like ned. For example Sansa is out the current Stark generation the most political savy. No way in hell does that comes from Ned. That purely comes from catelyn. Sansa would have not been that succesfull in kings landing if she wasn't diplomatic Like Catelyn. So Sansa has the good qualities of BOTH her parents.

But aside this yes i agree with you. Though she may have the tully look. Sansa is throughout a she-wolf and a child from the north. A mistake LF will pay for dearly.

Well as IQ is largely X-linked, so it would make sense for Sansa to mentally resemble both parents.

[The Mother of The Others]

Sansa will be Littlefinger's upfall.

Catelyn his downfall.

[the Scorpion Knight]

But the other two options are plausible.

did he ? he gained a year of peace from them. (usually such things are a hidden declaration of war)

Face it the tide turns against LF and he doesn't realise it

[Reznak mo Reznak]

I think we already saw LF slipping once due to Sansa. Remember the castle of snow and him kissing her? This was an incredible stupid move, because 1. it alarmered Lysa and led to her death (which was dangerous for LF in terms of power maintainance even if he might have planned her death for a later stage of the game) 2. they were in plain sight and everybody could have seen them which could have led people to start questioning her identity.

So I think it is fair to say that we already have seen signs that LF is not his reasonable self when being around Sansa, Now we just need a trigger - like him going to far sexually or Sansa learning about his involvement in Ned´s death or the whole Jeyne Pool thing - and then the bomb will go off...

I figured he intentionally kissed her there exactly so that Lysa would see it, and do something foolish which would give him an excuse to get rid of her.

[voodooqueen126]

I figured he intentionally kissed her there exactly so that Lysa would see it, and do something foolish which would give him an excuse to get rid of her.

Actually his psychological profile implies that he is highly impulsive.

Essentially, psychopaths and narcissists are maladaptive, self defeating, stupid people.

[Sneak]

did he ? he gained a year of peace from them. (usually such things are a hidden declaration of war)

Face it the tide turns against LF and he doesn't realise it

I haven't read AFFC in a while so my facts may be off, but there are 6 Lords Declarant and he already has 3 off them; Lady Waynwood, Lord Corbray and either Lord Templton or Belmore, I can't remember which. He says one of the Lords will most likely be murdered by his brothers and he can buy or become friends with the last one. Only Bronze Yohn won't join him, which LF himself says, so I don't think they will be a problem. But of course I could be wrong.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I figured he intentionally kissed her there exactly so that Lysa would see it, and do something foolish which would give him an excuse to get rid of her.

And risk the chance of others seeing them and because of that risking alaynes true identity? It is plain obvious that LF was reckless and impulsive there. After taking sansa under his care he slipped up a couple times. Though subtle it is there, and probably foreshadows his downfall

[Grand Vizier Zigzag]

I'd say Sansa has his "little finger" in a deadlock :cool4:

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I'd say Sansa has his "little finger" in a deadlock :cool4:

I dont know if i should laugh ore be disgusted by this statement.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I haven't read AFFC in a while so my facts may be off, but there are 6 Lords Declarant and he already has 3 off them; Lady Waynwood, Lord Corbray and either Lord Templton or Belmore, I can't remember which. He says one of the Lords will most likely be murdered by his brothers and he can buy or become friends with the last one. Only Bronze Yohn won't join him, which LF himself says, so I don't think they will be a problem. But of course I could be wrong.

1.) facts he told sansa drunk

2.) ever came to the ideas the lords declarant are playing Lf game against him (nestor and myranda royce might be the bronze yohn's spies)

3.) ignorance of the mountain clans borders on total desaster coming

[Sneak]

1.) facts he told sansa drunk

2.) ever came to the ideas the lords declarant are playing Lf game against him (nestor and myranda royce might be the bronze yohn's spies)

3.) ignorance of the mountain clans borders on total desaster coming

1. I concede the alcohol could have made him overconfident.

2. I don't think they are intelligent enough to beat LF at his own game. As long as LF gives them what they want I don't think they'll give him too much trouble.

3. What can they do? If they attack, it may force the Lords Declarant to work with LF, which is in his favour.

[Elba the Intoner]

I figured he intentionally kissed her there exactly so that Lysa would see it, and do something foolish which would give him an excuse to get rid of her.

I admit I thought about this possibility too as it's pretty obvious that LF would have wanted Lysa dead eventually. But, ultimately I have to agree with the others here who think it was just an impulsive stupid mistake. After this kiss, he still needs Sansa to be "Alayne" because he doesn't want it getting back to Cersei that he has Sansa with him, at least until he can get rid of the little problem of Sansa and Tyrion being married. Also, he still needed Lysa alive as that made his control on the Vale easier, and because he had to kill her earlier than planned, it raised some further problems for him, such as the Lords Declarants opposing him since Lysa was no long around to be the filter for his control of the Vale.

[the Scorpion Knight]

1. I concede the alcohol could have made him overconfident.

2. I don't think they are intelligent enough to beat LF at his own game. As long as LF gives them what they want I don't think they'll give him too much trouble.

3. What can they do? If they attack, it may force the Lords Declarant to work with LF, which is in his favour.

1.) i think your mistaking cause with outcome

2.) your making the same mistake LF does : never underestimate your enemies

3.) and what if the Lords declarant join them? and declare for another king?