Sansa's hold on littlefinger

[Sneak]

1.) i think your mistaking cause with outcome

2.) your making the same mistake LF does : never underestimate your enemies

3.) and what if the Lords declarant join them? and declare for another king?

1. What do you mean?

2. Sure, they could be secretly working together and playing LF like a fiddle, but I just don't see it. That's not the impression I got from the Lords Declarant.

3. The clans hate them and they hate the clans. The clans want to kill them and rule the Vale. I don't see them joining forces. What do you mean declare for another king?

[Drezelle]

I think if Sansa started to behave as if she were truly in love with LF he would start making more and more "mistakes" like he did kissing her while Lysa was watching. IF Sansa ever wanted to bring him down that would be the way to go, but really why would she? At this point he IS all she has! As far as she knows none of her family is alive and the Queen is after her. With LF letting her in on his plans she will start thinking they are a team. She will be likely to do as he asks.

I know LF has some crazy fucked up plans in store but for now Sansa might as well go along with them and see where they take her. I don't think LF wants her hurt in anyway and yes he most likely intends to marry her in the end but what are her options at this point? Where would she run too and who does she have? She was more then willing to marry William (was that his name? Margery's other brother or w/e) just to escape the Lannisters so why not marry LF? The age difference would not be an issue and he is earning titles left and right.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Yes, Littlefinger is the classic mustache-twirling villain, the James Bond evil genius supervillain who wastes time bragging about how smart he is while Bond wiggles out of his handcuffs and goes for his gun.

Sansa, however, is not James Bond, although I'm sure GRRM had her pocket the hairnet full of poison for some reason.

I see Sansa's stay at the Gates of the Moon as rather short because there are people around her who probably know her real identity (Ser Shadrich and Myranda) and will act on it. Will she be kidnapped for the bounty Cersei is offering? Will her marriage to Harry the Heir be squashed because she's still married? Will the Blackfish appear and take her away from LF because he's her oldest living male relative and thus her natural guardian? (Unlikely, I think he has unfinished bizness in the Riverlands). Will the Mountain Clans attack and carry her away to become the Bride of Shagga? Will Brienne finally develop a frickin' sense of direction and save Sansa's butt? Stay tuned folks, news at 2015 . . .

[Fat Mac]

If anyone but Sansa destroys/kills/defeats Littlefinger, I would be super fucking mad. Quite honestly, this situation would make me more mad than anything else. I don't want her to defeat him for "love" of another person, like some have suggested. I want her to defeat him for Ned, and for Cat. And I don't want Sansa to be saved. She needs to be her own savior. I love Littlefinger, he's my favorite character. But he's a villain, and I've come to accept that his day will come. But Sansa needs to do it, or else I will rage.

[The Silence]

- via Lothar Brune who is in love with Mia who in turn is becoming an ally of Sansa

I kinda like this scenario for some reason! Even though Ifind Littlefinger fascinating!

[Newstar]

Yes, Littlefinger is the classic mustache-twirling villain, the James Bond evil genius supervillain who wastes time bragging about how smart he is while Bond wiggles out of his handcuffs and goes for his gun.

Littlefinger reminds me of that bit from The Incredibles: "And then he starts monologuing!"

Sansa, however, is not James Bond, although I'm sure GRRM had her pocket the hairnet full of poison for some reason.

It's really not the sort of weapon she can use reflexively in self-defence, like a knife, so the use would have to be premeditated, and I have a lot of trouble believing that Sansa is capable of premeditated murder, no matter what the provocation. But still, I think the hairnet will be used. If not by her, then, who? Could Sweetrobin somehow accidentally poison himself? It would be fitting if Littlefinger were to die by the very same method he used to have Joffrey murdered, but who would poison him if not Sansa? Who would know that the hairnet amethysts were poison who would have sufficient motive to kill Littlefinger that way?

I see Sansa's stay at the Gates of the Moon as rather short because there are people around her who probably know her real identity (Ser Shadrich and Myranda) and will act on it. Will she be kidnapped for the bounty Cersei is offering? Will her marriage to Harry the Heir be squashed because she's still married? Will the Blackfish appear and take her away from LF because he's her oldest living male relative and thus her natural guardian? (Unlikely, I think he has unfinished bizness in the Riverlands). Will the Mountain Clans attack and carry her away to become the Bride of Shagga? Will Brienne finally develop a frickin' sense of direction and save Sansa's butt?

Yeah, there are so many things that could go wrong for Littlefinger in so many possible ways--Randa, Ser Shadrich, Brienne, Blackfish, Vale Lords, Cersei, Harry the Heir, Tyrion, mountain clans, Sweetrobin, Sansa--that it's just a matter of "how" and "when."

Not sure how I feel about Sansa as Bride of Shagga, but I like the idea of her becoming queen of the mountain clans, at least for a little while. It would be another parallel with Dany's arc.

Stay tuned folks, news at 2015 . . .

2015? Sweet summer child!

I'm very curious to see how Sansa reacts to Littlefinger's proposal to give her the Vale and the North, whether she figures out that Littlefinger is poisoning Sweetrobin, and if she does figure it out, what she chooses to do with that information. It will be very telling as to which way her arc is leading (which is why GRRM hasn't provided a Sansa chapter for TWOW...yet, at least).

[voodooqueen126]

3. The clans hate them and they hate the clans. The clans want to kill them and rule the Vale. I don't see them joining forces. What do you mean declare for another king?

I very much agree with you hear. However the fact that the Lords Declarant (and all civilized people living in the Vale) despise the Mountain clans, could work against Littlefinger.

To use real world examples: corrupt leaders have corrupt underlings. More importantly it is also worth noting that many corrupt leaders are much too busy plotting to stay in power and eliminating legitimate/honest leaders to deal with genuine criminality which is to say the real threats to the safety of their citizens.

I think despite the fact that Littlefinger has been given a year to sort out the problems in the Vale with the Mountain Clans, it does not follow that he will actually do anything to curb them. I could easily imagine him putting out reports saying "250 Stone Crows killed by Baelish forces" or words to that effect, but not actually killing them. Instead I expect Petyr to be far more focused (and expend resources) on petty power plays against the Lords Declarant to deal with genuine threats to the safety of the Vale citizenry. Thus further alienating the Lords Declarant and weakening his own position.

It's all rather self defeating.

I think if Sansa started to behave as if she were truly in love with LF he would start making more and more "mistakes" like he did kissing her while Lysa was watching. IF Sansa ever wanted to bring him down that would be the way to go, but really why would she? At this point he IS all she has! As far as she knows none of her family is alive and the Queen is after her. With LF letting her in on his plans she will start thinking they are a team. She will be likely to do as he asks.

I know LF has some crazy fucked up plans in store but for now Sansa might as well go along with them and see where they take her. I don't think LF wants her hurt in anyway and yes he most likely intends to marry her in the end but what are her options at this point? Where would she run too and who does she have? She was more then willing to marry William (was that his name? Margery's other brother or w/e) just to escape the Lannisters so why not marry LF? The age difference would not be an issue and he is earning titles left and right.

I agree with you here: if Petyr is a narcissist then he is no doubt highly susceptible to Narcissistic supply. If Petyr is a psychopath, he is still susceptible to flattery, in fact one of the most flattering things for a psychopath is to pretend to be learning from them. Which Sansa does in AFFC.

The reason Sansa should not marry Littlefinger is that: he lied to her mother, he betrayed her father, his schemes have destroyd her whole family and began a civil war that has killed countless people, he is responsible for her marriage to Tyrion, he murdered Ser Dontos and killed Lysa (who loved him-which fits the profile with narcissists and borderlines). He would destroy her personality-either turning her into Lysa or someone like him. He would eventually get bored of her, given what he did with Lysa, this would not be a good thing. Also since I think it is likely that Sweet Robin is his son, I think his genetic material is utterly substandard. He would not be emotionall fulfilling, and he does not have very good genetic material. Since he is legitimately heir to a Keep on the Fingers, there is no justifying financial motive.

Harry the Heir would be a much better match.

However I certainly think Sansa should pretend that she is on team Baelish, and work with him, manipulate him into placing her in a position of power, then eliminate him.

If anyone but Sansa destroys/kills/defeats Littlefinger, I would be super fucking mad. Quite honestly, this situation would make me more mad than anything else. I don't want her to defeat him for "love" of another person, like some have suggested. I want her to defeat him for Ned, and for Cat. And I don't want Sansa to be saved. She needs to be her own savior. I love Littlefinger, he's my favorite character. But he's a villain, and I've come to accept that his day will come. But Sansa needs to do it, or else I will rage.

I completely agree with you hear, but I think destroying Littlefinger would be an act of love: it would be an act of love on behalf Sweet Robin, for Jeyne Poole, for her parents and everyone else who has suffered through Petyr's pettiness.

[The Other Others]

Neither had any hold on the other but Littlefinger trusts Sansa as much as he trusts anyone (he trusts her about his plans to kill Sweetrobin and that he killed Lysa) so he might make a mistake about telling her about one of his plans,she warns the target and the target( whoever is king at the time,probabily) takes action. She won't kill him herself,she'll use someone else to.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think we already saw LF slipping once due to Sansa. Remember the castle of snow and him kissing her? This was an incredible stupid move, because 1. it alarmered Lysa and led to her death (which was dangerous for LF in terms of power maintainance even if he might have planned her death for a later stage of the game) 2. they were in plain sight and everybody could have seen them which could have led people to start questioning her identity.

So I think it is fair to say that we already have seen signs that LF is not his reasonable self when being around Sansa, Now we just need a trigger - like him going to far sexually or Sansa learning about his involvement in Ned´s death or the whole Jeyne Pool thing - and then the bomb will go off...

It was incredibly foolish of Petyr to give his supposed daughter a definitely un-paternal kiss outside, within sight of windows and the eyes of servants and his quite unstable wife (who was the Lady of the Eyrie and knew some of Petyr's greatest secrets). This was not the act of a cool and machiavellian schemer who had just acquired three crucial pawns - the Lady of the Eyrie as his wife, the child Lord of the Eyrie as his stepson, and the only legitimate Stark heir that is known to be alive as his 'daughter' and future Cat-substitute - this was the act of a man who cannot control his own desires, at least not to the extent that he should in that time and place. For a moment, Petyr's mask slipped; the mask he had worn successfully for years with some very powerful and smart game-players; all because of the presence of Catelyn Tully's barely nubile lookalike daughter.

No wonder Littlefinger has taken pains to physically and emotionally isolate Sansa and increase her dependence on him! The more she realizes her own beauty and charm and power over men, power over him, and how to use that power, the more danger for Petyr; and perhaps on some level he realizes this.

[Newstar]

It was incredibly foolish of Petyr to give his supposed daughter a definitely un-paternal kiss outside, within sight of windows and the eyes of servants and his quite unstable wife (who was the Lady of the Eyrie and knew some of Petyr's greatest secrets). This was not the act of a cool and machiavellian schemer who had just acquired three crucial pawns - the Lady of the Eyrie as his wife, the child Lord of the Eyrie as his stepson, and the only legitimate Stark heir that is known to be alive as his 'daughter' and future Cat-substitute - this was the act of a man who cannot control his own desires, at least not to the extent that he should in that time and place. For a moment, Petyr's mask slipped; the mask he had worn successfully for years with some very powerful and smart game-players; all because of the presence of Catelyn Tully's barely nubile lookalike daughter.

Agreed. The ASOS kiss is just the tip of the iceberg, though. Littlefinger has taken all kinds of ridiculous risks to get Sansa not only under his control, but with him. He doesn't just want to stash her somewhere to trot her out at a convenient moment (like Jeyne or as has been speculated, Varys and Tyrek Lannister), and he doesn't want to deal with her using third parties indefinitely, which would be smarter and safer. No, he wants her with him, under his power and within his reach, thus the elaborate "daughter" charade and the parading Sansa around those living in the Vale, at least one of whom has met her, despite the terrible danger. He has gone out on many, many limbs to get her and keep her right where he wants her. Those who praise Littlefinger's planning skills seem to be overlooking just how incautious he's being when it comes to Sansa, and I suspect that's going to back up on him sooner or later.

o wonder Littlefinger has taken pains to physically and emotionally isolate Sansa and increase her dependence on him! The more she realizes her own beauty and charm and power over men, power over him, and how to use that power, the more danger for Petyr; and perhaps on some level he realizes this.

I suspect, assuming nothing happens to upend the situation in the Vale anytime soon, that Littlefinger's next step will be tutoring Sansa in how to "charm" Harry and all the grossness that that entails. I don't think it will go as far as having Sansa "trained" the way Jeyne apparently was, but every time I keep thinking these books can't get any creepier, GRRM somehow manages to surprise me.

I can't imagine Sansa ever consciously using her beauty/charm/sexuality to manipulate people, although there are troubling signs that she may be going that route in AFFC (trading kisses for obedience from Sweetrobin). That was one of Cersei's crappy queenship "lessons," wasn't it? (Learn to use the weapon between your legs.) If Sansa ever does go that route, it will be an indication that she is becoming corrupted, as women who use their sexuality to get ahead are vilified in the books. It's okay if people just fall at your feet prostrate at your beauty/sex appeal with no action on your part and help you/do as you ask/sacrifice everything for you as a result, but Heaven forfend you actually consciously try to influence them using your beauty/sexuality.

[Raksha the Demon]

I didn't mean to imply that Sansa will become a sexual temptress. There are ways to charm and even mildly flirt, to turn the heads of men and boys, without granting them sexual favors. It would surprise me if a young girl in Sansa's position did not start to experiment in the use of beauty and charm; this is something that girls often do, it is not necessarily evil, it can be as benign as taking pains with makeup and a special hairdo and outfit when at a particular gathering of peers, and smiling at a particular boy, or be used more consciously and more deliberately and even more viciously (which I hope Sansa would not do). Sansa doesn't have to be Lolita to accentuate some of her considerable positives; she could be a younger version of Queen Elizabeth I (and hopefully not get caught in the position that the young Elizabeth was found in, thanks to her stepfather, at the age of 15), who did use feminine charm as well as her mind.

[Sneak]

It's really not the sort of weapon she can use reflexively in self-defence, like a knife, so the use would have to be premeditated, and I have a lot of trouble believing that Sansa is capable of premeditated murder, no matter what the provocation. But still, I think the hairnet will be used. If not by her, then, who?

I agree with this, especially the bolded part. I too have trouble seeing Sansa as a murderer. What would prompt her to do such a thing? I can't see her finding out about LF's betrayal of Ned; who is close to her or coming to her who knows about it? Who knows about it anyway? Just LF and Cersei? She doesn't know about the dagger lie, only LF, Varys and Tyrion know I think and LF certainly isn't going to tell her while the other two are in no position to reveal the truth. What esle could be motivation to murder LF? She already knows everything Lysa blurted out and she hasn't done anything about it. Granted, she is probably surpressing it, but I just can't see her kill someone, even LF.

If she is to be his downfall, it will be via some other way IMO. Perhaps she will just reveal everything she knows from Lysa and what he himself has told her. It's more than enough to ruin him.

[Lord Arryn]

I think Sansa is acting naive just for LF. Don´t know why, but her chapters in AFfC seemed different from thse previous. Seemed to me like she held some things just for herself and did not say fully what she wanted - not even in her mind.Her self-controlis definitely strong. I would not be surprised if she tricked LF somehow after she learns about Ned. Maybe not kill him directly, but lets say prison him in sky cell would be enough - and it would end with the same result as she would just execute him, only in this case her hands would be technically clean.

If Sansa has some quality that Cersei has not - it´s control over her emotions and subtlety. Which can be crucial in the Game of Thrones and reason why Cersei can never win it.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I agree it would be perfect if sansa has someone else do her work. "Clean hands". This is why I want sansa to presuade the lords of vale to get rid of lf. Wouldnt it be sweet irony if Sansa uses all the lessons lf thought against him.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I think Sansa is acting naive just for LF. Don´t know why, but her chapters in AFfC seemed different from thse previous. Seemed to me like she held some things just for herself and did not say fully what she wanted - not even in her mind.Her self-controlis definitely strong. I would not be surprised if she tricked LF somehow after she learns about Ned. Maybe not kill him directly, but lets say prison him in sky cell would be enough - and it would end with the same result as she would just execute him, only in this case her hands would be technically clean.

If Sansa has some quality that Cersei has not - it´s control over her emotions and subtlety. Which can be crucial in the Game of Thrones and reason why Cersei can never win it.

Sansa has took this method on the minute dontos explained to her acting all naive and dumb will limit suspicious eyes on her. Readers often do not give sansa credit for her accomplices. And Sansa in ASOS is a prime example. Sansa was fooling everyone: Tyrion, cersei, tywin and those courtiers. Nobody had an idea that Sansa was plotting her escape. Yes that was all LF doing, but had sansa wearing her emotions on her sleeve then they would have caught her on and killed for it.

[Elba the Intoner]

I didn't mean to imply that Sansa will become a sexual temptress. There are ways to charm and even mildly flirt, to turn the heads of men and boys, without granting them sexual favors. It would surprise me if a young girl in Sansa's position did not start to experiment in the use of beauty and charm; this is something that girls often do, it is not necessarily evil, it can be as benign as taking pains with makeup and a special hairdo and outfit when at a particular gathering of peers, and smiling at a particular boy, or be used more consciously and more deliberately and even more viciously (which I hope Sansa would not do). Sansa doesn't have to be Lolita to accentuate some of her considerable positives; she could be a younger version of Queen Elizabeth I (and hopefully not get caught in the position that the young Elizabeth was found in, thanks to her stepfather, at the age of 15), who did use feminine charm as well as her mind.

I agree. As for the sentence that I bolded, Sansa has already been doing that when she was in Court with Joffrey. A lot of people get on Sansa's case for being too into how she dresses and looks, but when she was in King's Landing everything she wore, dresses and jewelry, and how she made herself look were about making sure Joff was pleased. He made it obvious that he liked her looking pretty. It didn't keep him from beating her all the time, but it definitely worked some times. Also, look at how she acts when she goes to court to plead for Ned's life. She smiles just for Joff, a special smile just for him, and it would have worked too if LF hadn't whispered in Joff's ear about the need to look strong or whatever he likely said to get Joff to behead Ned.

I agree with this, especially the bolded part. I too have trouble seeing Sansa as a murderer. What would prompt her to do such a thing? I can't see her finding out about LF's betrayal of Ned; who is close to her or coming to her who knows about it? Who knows about it anyway? Just LF and Cersei? She doesn't know about the dagger lie, only LF, Varys and Tyrion know I think and LF certainly isn't going to tell her while the other two are in no position to reveal the truth. What esle could be motivation to murder LF? She already knows everything Lysa blurted out and she hasn't done anything about it. Granted, she is probably surpressing it, but I just can't see her kill someone, even LF.

If she is to be his downfall, it will be via some other way IMO. Perhaps she will just reveal everything she knows from Lysa and what he himself has told her. It's more than enough to ruin him.

My pet theory on how Sansa will find out about how LF betrayed her family and what he did to Jeyne is that she will learn to warg a bird and through that somehow get the information that will spur her to take action against him. There has been a ton of bird and flying imagery associated with Sansa's character, and there is her little bird nickname which is also the nickname Varys uses for his child spies. Coincidence? Now that she is out of the isolated Eyrie and in the Vale there will be more animals and birds around so it could happen. I agree though that the way she takes him down will be by using his own methods against him a la the clean hands theory. It doesn't even have to be by murder but rather just getting all the info she has against him out there so that someone else takes care of him (maybe they arrange for a nice little meeting for LF with Lady Stoneheart?) The student outsmarting the teacher would be oh so satisfying.

[Rhaquentis]

Littlefinger depends too much on Sansa, her role in his plan is major. I think that's the weakness that will lead to his failure.

[Sneak]

My pet theory on how Sansa will find out about how LF betrayed her family and what he did to Jeyne is that she will learn to warg a bird and through that somehow get the information that will spur her to take action against him. There has been a ton of bird and flying imagery associated with Sansa's character, and there is her little bird nickname which is also the nickname Varys uses for his child spies. Coincidence? Now that she is out of the isolated Eyrie and in the Vale there will be more animals and birds around so it could happen. I agree though that the way she takes him down will be by using his own methods against him a la the clean hands theory. It doesn't even have to be by murder but rather just getting all the info she has against him out there so that someone else takes care of him (maybe they arrange for a nice little meeting for LF with Lady Stoneheart?) The student outsmarting the teacher would be oh so satisfying.

I don't want Sansa to outsmart LF and I don't think she will, but I may be biased because I'm not really a fan of the whole student outsmarting the teacher thing. I only like it if the student is a genius and clearly better than the teacher, which I don't think Sansa is. IMO if Sansa brings him down it will be by revealing the truth of what she knows. I can't see it happening any other way.

[Fire Eater]

Little Finger was drunk in her last AFFC chapter. Does Little Finger come over as the person to be drunk. Do not think so. So yeah he IS slipping BECAUSE of Sansa. His obsession for her is blinding him.

Where do you get the impression that he was drunk?

[Kittykatknits]

Where do you get the impression that he was drunk?

Sansa always notes that his breath smells of mint. In that final chapter, he's alone late at night and she notices the smell of alcohol on his breath. If you combine that, his behavior towards her, and his unusual exuberance, it all points to the fact that he may be drunk. It's the very first time that Sansa notices alcohol with him, he has always been very careful before.