Feminism in 2012

[Fragile Bird]

I should have linked the original report from Geek Girl Con, which the other article is actually commenting on. straits, I think the point being made is that elements of the plot were deliberate choices made by GRRM, including, as the first writer says, what seems to be a rape-a-chapter in GOT. There certainly is a lot of interesting discussion here on the forum about GRRM's depiction od women, nothing really new in either piece, just a non-Westerros view, that's all.

[Castel]

Martin’s series is in the same genre as Harry Potter is. It’s written purely for escapism and entertainment, where readers can leave the real world behind for a moment and revel in the author’s creation. But while there’s nothing too disturbing about a child (or grown-up) imagining that they can pick up a wand and do magic,

I want to post something more serious later buy I just find this bit hilarious. Harry Potter lives in a universe that condones rape-passively or no-, mental and by extension physical. They sell love potions in fucking mainstream stores! I wonder what people would say if that stuff was more apparent.

Probably not much, since everyone is fine with vampires glamoring and mind raping people. It certainly hasn't hurt their sex appeal.

I don't think the series would have so many female fans if the misogyny in the books was as unironic as the article suggests. Too often mediaeval fantasies gloss over or romanticise the misogyny inherent in mediaeval civilization to make a "nice" story. I think women readers of the books appreciate the fact that the realities of mediaeval war are not sugar-coated, and that although some of the female characters are victimised, none of the viewpoint characters are helpless victims.

I actually think that if you're going to write about such a world the classism and misogyny should be shown. None of this bullshit about suspiciously noble nobles who never fuck up or sacrifice people to advance their own personal ends and are amazingly liberal. It's insulting. I like that people are unconsciously racist and classist, even when they think that they're progressive. It's like Mad Men where Betty thinks that she's for civil rights and says things like "Maybe now's not the time" I think highlighting that sort of passive, hypocritical bigotry is good.

This, of course, does not address the issue of whether or not we should write said books in the first place.

Maybe I feel that way because I love the series so much; I dunno. I hav noticed, though, as a member of this forum, how much harder we seem to be on the female characters than on the male characters. I think that's a great example of the unintentional misogyny we as a society engage in.

Are we? Putting aside the low post count newbies that pop in, drop a bad comment and leave, oblivious, I haven't noticed that much dislike for female characters for it's own sake. Dany and Cat get the most hate and I can say that the hate for Cat can be sexist (she's expected to care for a child that isn't hers) but people have had valid reason to dislike Dany for years.

eta: I don't account for the faceless throng that is the internet because well, that's a pointless exercise imo.

[Lyanna Stark]

And after reading that extremely interesting piece about The Kiss in Times Square, did you also notice the article about a GOT panel discussion at Geek Girl Con, George R.R. Martin and the misogyny in GOT?

That author has clearly not been to the book forums much. Post the HBO series, it's been flooded with female posters and yes, a lot of feminist. There is a lot of critical reading going on among fans, although as always not everyone is capable of it. I guess it depends.

Sadly, in A Song of Ice and Fire, rape or abuse of women happen on almost every page. They are depicted in an offhand manner, completely gratuitous, and pass without comment. Worse, the perpetrators are frequently portrayed as sympathetic characters instead of villains.

And this shows the writer has really not bothered reading the books particularly well. Which rapist is described in a positive manner? Gregor Clegane? Amory Lorch? The marital rapist Robert Baratheon? Few readers really think these characters are morally upstanding.

Tyrion Lannister post ADWD is often getting severe critique for being a rapist, if that is the person the writer is complaining about. Victarion Greyjoy can only be described as "sympathetic" if you have a huge hole in the head where the brain is supposed to be, sort of like himself.

EDIT: The one scenario which often gets critiqued for being problematic is the Dany/Drogo relationship where she magically falls in love with him, and makes the relationship work. And it gets slammed *a lot*.

ETA: We've had the discussion here, about reading the books critically through modern eyes, and the author doesn't buy the idea that's the way they are supposed to be read.

The author of the article seems to have more prejudice against Fantasy than anything else. We're not meant to read genre literature this way. Evidenced by this really dense and inaccurate comment:

Martin’s series is in the same genre as Harry Potter is. It’s written purely for escapism and entertainment, where readers can leave the real world behind for a moment and revel in the author’s creation.

Clearly, the author thinks ASOIAF is at the level of Harry Potter and should be read as Harry Potter: for escapism only. When in reality, it's so shock full of themes, motifs, foreshadowing, symbolism and psychology that sure, you can read it as a pure adventure story, but you'll miss out 60% of what's in there.

Also, she fails @ life for using Stieg Larsson as a good example of what we ought to read. Sure, the message is simple and straight forward, but that's disregarding the sexually promiscuous man who is the main character and he's like both oh so clever and a complete alpha male sex god. She needs to maybe try to read between the lines in Stieg Larsson, just like she ought to do in ASOIAF, and she might get a clue. Until, then, she should stay with Harry Potter, I think.

There are many parents here so let me ask--what do you teach your daughters about acting ladylike? At what point do you instruct them to keep their knees together? Have you ever taken them aside and suggested that they shouldn't run without a sports bra? To me one of the key differences between men and women is that men have much less shame about their bodies and I can't think of a single example where a man would be judged with low character because of how he moves. As always, I am happy to be instructed.

This is something I often think of. I have a little three year old troll girl, and I try to not inflict sterotypes on her if I can. I encourage her to play with trains and buses, or to run around outside to get dirty, but at the same time, if she wants to dance and try on my make up (and she does, sometimes) I won't stop her.

[Brienne the Beauty]

but people have had valid reason to dislike Dany for years.

Not really. You can dislike the character as unfun to read about, sure - everyone has their unfavourites. But she's a white hat for sure, and very much the self projection character for female readers and watchers of the TV series. She's not perfect but no-one is in ASOIAF, that's the appeal of the story.

Wanting her to be raped and humiliated is creepy for all those female readers and TV watchers who identify with her. Sure it may happen, as she goes through all the trials of life in that very harsh world. But wanting it to happen is just screwed up. Imagine if 50% of female readers were rooting for Jon Snow to be raped by the Bastard of Bolton to "teach him a lesson"?

[straits]

I should have linked the original report from Geek Girl Con, which the other article is actually commenting on. straits, I think the point being made is that elements of the plot were deliberate choices made by GRRM, including, as the first writer says, what seems to be a rape-a-chapter in GOT. There certainly is a lot of interesting discussion here on the forum about GRRM's depiction od women, nothing really new in either piece, just a non-Westerros view, that's all.

Thanks. I think that avoiding to write the series the way GRRM did (all the misogyny included) would be a cop-out of its own. It's like eliminating all the icky bad parts of society to make a fluffy tale.

[Maithanet]

Are we? Putting aside the low post count newbies that pop in, drop a bad comment and leave, oblivious, I haven't noticed that much dislike for female characters for it's own sake. Dany and Cat get the most hate and I can say that the hate for Cat can be sexist (she's expected to care for a child that isn't hers) but people have had valid reason to dislike Dany for years.

I dont' want to derail this discussion, which has been really good, but I do agree with Elder Sister on this. If I were to name the three characters that attract the most scorn and controversy on the board, it would be Cat, Dany and Sansa. Now, this is not to say these are the most contemptuous characters; there aren't a lot of Gregor or Qyburn fans. But there are a lot of people that seem to give Tywin a pass for his many monstrous actions because of his Machiavellian "get the job done" approach, but are unwilling to give any benefit of the doubt to Dany.

[Lyanna Stark]

Thanks Castel for mentioning the love potions in Harry Potter. I have no idea why people describe it as some sort of perfect fantasy universe where everything is flowers.

I dont' want to derail this discussion, which has been really good, but I do agree with Elder Sister on this. If I were to name the three characters that attract the most scorn and controversy on the board, it would be Cat, Dany and Sansa. Now, this is not to say these are the most contemptuous characters; there aren't a lot of Gregor or Qyburn fans. But there are a lot of people that seem to give Tywin a pass for his many monstrous actions because of his Machiavellian "get the job done" approach, but are unwilling to give any benefit of the doubt to Dany.

Yes, a lot of readers are sexist (news at eleven). That doesn't mean that the text itself is.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Thanks. I think that avoiding to write the series the way GRRM did (all the misogyny included) would be a cop-out of its own. It's like eliminating all the icky bad parts of society to make a fluffy tale.

The bookshop shelves groan under the weight of cuddly fantasies like this that never hit the bestseller lists. The harshness and horror of ASOIAF is one of the reasons why it is such a big seller. Inexplicably feminist and tolerant mediaeval societies always ring odd to me, like a Ren Faire version of the past, with all the bad bits taken out.

[Castel]

And this shows the writer has really not bothered reading the books particularly well. Which rapist is described in a positive manner? Gregor Clegane? Amory Lorch?

Tyrion Lannister post ADWD is often getting severe critique for being a rapist, if that is the person the writer is complaining about. Victarion Greyjoy can only be described as "sympathetic" if you have a huge hole in the head where the brain is supposed to be, sort of like himself.

I honestly think that people want Stieg Larsson hamfistedness before they accept that a character isn't being portrayed sympathetically for being bad. They want to hear a voice from the heavens say "Thus it came to pass that Ser Gregor became the biggest asshole in Westeros". I personally don't like that type of writing in my limited third person.

But this type of hyperbole is common in reviews of GOT, which is why I don't read them. Ever since the books have become popular people have felt the need to come out and "bash" it. This article is actually not that bad compared to some of the "critiques" I've seen recently.

Honestly, the closest thing to a rapist or sexual abuser being treated well as far as I can see is Tyrion, and I'm not sure that I buy that completely, some of the things that Martin does there are suspect though (like writing the majority of his marriage to Sansa from his POV). Other than that...Ygritte and her "sleep with me or I'll tell Mance" ploy is the only other example I have off head.

eta: Oh, and maybe Dany/Drogo. Though Drogo really doesn't come out of this looking good.

Wanting her to be raped and humiliated is creepy for all those female readers and TV watchers who identify with her. Sure it may happen, as she goes through all the trials of life in that very harsh world. But wanting it to happen is just screwed up. Imagine if 50% of female readers were rooting for Jon Snow to be raped by the Bastard of Bolton to "teach him a lesson"?

Wait, what ? How do you go from: "people can dislike Dany for good reasons" to "it's not right to want Dany to be raped"? How are the two even remotely connected? I'm not claiming that people have valid reasons for waiting Dany to be raped, I'm claiming that they have valid reasons for not liking her.

I was trying to seperate the logical reasons people dislike Cat, Dany and Sansa from the sexism that might be lurking in Gen.

[straits]

I dont' want to derail this discussion, which has been really good, but I do agree with Elder Sister on this. If I were to name the three characters that attract the most scorn and controversy on the board, it would be Cat, Dany and Sansa. Now, this is not to say these are the most contemptuous characters; there aren't a lot of Gregor or Qyburn fans. But there are a lot of people that seem to give Tywin a pass for his many monstrous actions because of his Machiavellian "get the job done" approach, but are unwilling to give any benefit of the doubt to Dany.

She does not really get the job done. And I've noticed that people like stoicism, which Tywin has plenty of. Dany comes across as a child still. She'd have the right to be one in another situation. But she shouldn't be.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Wait, what ? How do you go from: "people can dislike Dany for good reasons" to "it's not right to want Dany to be raped"? How are the two even remotely connected? I'm not claiming that people have valid reasons for waiting Dany to be raped, I'm claiming that they have valid reasons for not liking her.

There's valid reasons to dislike every character in the bloody story; this is Martin's famous "grey characters" technique.

But I'm getting tired of male fans going hur-hur-hope-Victarion-rapes-Dany. Seriously, you can't read a Dany or Victarion discussion without tripping over this attitude. It is not rare, and you don't get it even with the most annoying male characters. People manage to dislike Tyrion's self-pitying portrayal in ADWD without fervently hoping for his continued enslavement, for instance.

[Lyanna Stark]

Castel, missing the like feature right now, but we are completely agreed. :)

The bookshop shelves groan under the weight of cuddly fantasies like this that never hit the bestseller lists. The harshness and horror of ASOIAF is one of the reasons why it is such a big seller. Inexplicably feminist and tolerant mediaeval societies always ring odd to me, like a Ren Faire version of the past, with all the bad bits taken out.

The harshness and horrors of ASOIAF also serves to highlight something that the "prettified" versions of Fantasy often gloss over: women in that type of society were their feudal lord's subject in everything. Arranged marriages aren't pretty things. Women being forced to have abortions and then married off to some old codger aren't seen as good things, and we see what came out of it: misery and murder. We're supposed to find these things bad. The fact that some readers don't serves more to highlight their own prejudice than it is a comment on what's lacking in the text.

There's valid reasons to dislike every character in the bloody story; this is Martin's famous "grey characters" technique.

But I'm getting tired of male fans going hur-hur-hope-Victarion-rapes-Dany. Seriously, you can't read a Dany or Victarion discussion without tripping over this attitude. It is not rare, and you don't get it even with the most annoying male characters. People manage to dislike Tyrion's self-pitying portrayal in ADWD without fervently hoping for his continued enslavement, for instance.

Actually I haven't seen Dany should get raped by Victarion yet. I have seen posts commenting that he is "her type" and that she might be raped and dragged to Vaes Dothrak. Or fried by her own dragons.

Also, it's not only male fans who manage to be sexist, I may point out here. There are a few staunch female rape apologists around, who have a hard time accepting stuff like marital rape, or that cultural context doesn't excuse it. Or why gendered slurs like "bitch" are bad to use.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Actually I haven't seen Dany should get raped by Victarion yet.

I think the mods banned it, I've seen people be warned here for skating close to that line.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think the mods banned it, I've seen people be warned here for skating close to that line.

I have reported a lot of the people who got their posts deleted in those threads, I might add. ;)

However, I think the more egregious examples have lessened of late. Either the Mods have been really busy or the real trolls have got tired.

That's not to say that the readership has suddenly been cleared of all sexism, or that readers judge the female characters harsher than the male ones quite frequently. Should that be corrected in the writing though to make all female characters morally superior and easier to like? I don't think that will help. People need to get used to reading about flawed female characters too.

[Fragile Bird]

That author has clearly not been to the book forums much. Post the HBO series, it's been flooded with female posters and yes, a lot of feminist. There is a lot of critical reading going on among fans, although as always not everyone is capable of it. I guess it depends.

And this shows the writer has really not bothered reading the books particularly well. Which rapist is described in a positive manner? Gregor Clegane? Amory Lorch? The marital rapist Robert Baratheon? Few readers really think these characters are morally upstanding.

In terms of what they read or didn't read, LS, did you notice they pointed out they saw the HBO series and so far have only read GOT? And loved it so much they are embarking on reading all the books? It's obvious they haven't been on the book forums, wise if they don't want to be spoiled. :) I only referenced the links because the two authors both were obviously not people who have read ASOIAF the way it gets read here.

This is something I often think of. I have a little three year old troll girl, and I try to not inflict sterotypes on her if I can. I encourage her to play with trains and buses, or to run around outside to get dirty, but at the same time, if she wants to dance and try on my make up (and she does, sometimes) I won't stop her.

Something to think about - what if your next is a boy and he wants to paint his toenails and play with dolls? You have to prepare yourself for both ends of the spectrum, as friends of mine have discovered.

[Fragile Bird]

I have reported a lot of the people who got their posts deleted in those threads, I might add. ;)

However, I think the more egregious examples have lessened of late. Either the Mods have been really busy or the real trolls have got tired.

That's not to say that the readership has suddenly been cleared of all sexism, or that readers judge the female characters harsher than the male ones quite frequently. Should that be corrected in the writing though to make all female characters morally superior and easier to like? I don't think that will help. People need to get used to reading about flawed female characters too.

I'm adding this post, Lyanna, because after posting above it made me curious. When did you start critically thinking about ASOIAF? While reading GOT? After reading GOT? After you read the first couple of books? After you found Westeros (or it's predecessor) and started talking with other people? I only read GOT last November, and was both fascinated and shocked by the story (I did not see the HBO series) and immediately devoured the rest of the books. I wanted to discuss what I had read, which is why I ended up on the internet and how I found Westeros. But since I came late to the series, I had the advantage of seeing the whole tableau in a short period of time. I'm not sure many people get into critical analysis right after the first book.

That's a question addressed to everyone, of course, but Lyanna does a lot of analysis, so I addressed it to her. :read:

[Kalbear]

Tyrion happily wishing to rape his own sister was a pretty low point for him as far as being a fan favorite goes.

And lyanna - I don't see how it's a good argument that GRRM is doing this to "not hide" the bad parts of his society. That's a false dichotomy. For starters one of the themes of the series isn't the sexism, it's the classism. There's no reason that the bad parts (like mycah) can't be shown without the misogyny; point of fact there's no specific reason that the society can't both be horrible and be not misogynistic.

I think that asoaif was a book that wanted to write a more realistic fantasy - a fantasy that took some elements of fantasies and merged them with a very realistic (or at least more realistic) view of what medieval periods were actually like. In that way it acts as a critique of those whitewashed escapist basic Tolkien ripoffs. However, I don't think it was thought out as well as it could have been and I think GRRM was lazy at times in not thinking critically of some of the conclusions his world would reasonably generate. This is IMO much worse in his nonwesterosian cultures but its pretty true about the role of women in the world.

Now, I very firmly think there is massive evidence against GRRM writing misogyny. All the women are in one way or another struggling with and fighting against the misogyny. It is something that they deal with; it is not something that defines them. But it's certainly not ideal.

[Brienne the Beauty]

ASOIAF has a tonne of sexism and classism, but one real-world medieval horror it leaves out is religious bigotry. The real middle ages were practically defined by it. The ASOIAF religions seem to get along amazingly well. No pogroms or crusades.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Lightingchick

Great post and great thoughts. [Like]

It is also part of my critique of Rothfuss's reasoning, that he shouldn't change his behavior just because it's expected of men to act a certain way. Of course he should. To compare the push for him to view women in a less sexist way to the decision that a woman needs to make in terms of being a stay-at-home-mom is inappropriate.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Let's keep this thread focused on feminism in the real world, 2012.

Feminism in the book series is better accommodated in the Book forums.

Thank you.

[/mod hat]