Feminism in 2012

[TerraPrime]

Speaking of iconic images...

The true story behind that famous kiss from the celebration of WW2's ending.

The answer to the first question is yes. He is perfectly entitled to be ecstatic. He is perfectly entitled to celebrate. However, this entitlement does not extend to his impinging on someone else’s bodily autonomy.

Also, before you respond, read the follow-up, too.

[kairparavel]

Well let's not forget Adrien Brody then in the seconds after he won the Oscar.

I understand rape culture and entitlement and power, but I also understand elation, jubilation, and sheer joy. That is to say, assault is a regular occurrence, but the war ending and winning an Oscar does not. Where do extraordinary circumstances come to play? Or can they not?

[Kalbear]

I understand rape culture and entitlement and power, but I also understand elation, jubilation, and sheer joy. That is to say, assault is a regular occurrence, but the war ending and winning an Oscar does not. Where do extraordinary circumstances come to play? Or can they not?

The rape culture and entitlement and power are not about her being kissed against her will; they're in what she can say, her reaction, the news about this coming out 60 years later and the reaction to that, etc.

The summary article TP linked does a good job of describing that.

[Elder Sister]

I also thought some of the reader comments about Bob Marley and John Lennon sort of exemplify this.

We often choose our own reality. It's hard sometimes to face facts, and people disregarded the facts about the photo in light of what it represented for them.

[straits]

Speaking of iconic images...

The true story behind that famous kiss from the celebration of WW2's ending.

Also, before you respond, read the follow-up, too.

The comment section is enjoyable. Here's an article giving some more background on the story, I believe:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2187071/Times-Square-Sailor-nurse-kissing-iconic-WWII-photograph-reunited.html#ixzz28TAh6cxv

He kissed the woman in front of his date and future wife!

[straits]

Another interesting article on selective media coverage.

I liked Sean Penn :(

[Castel]

Another interesting article on selective media coverage.

I liked Sean Penn :(

And I liked Christian Bale. And Michael Fassbender. And Alec Baldwin apparently. All these people are just as fine today as ever. Fassbender I might leave out because I don't know enough about but Bale and Baldwin have tremendous amounts of respect in their fields. This has literally never occurred to me when these people are mentioned because it's never brought up.

Though I'll say that things were made infinitely worse for Brown because there was a photo. Rihanna with her face looking like a fucking pizza...is a heck of an image.

And the fact that he's just an unrepentant asshole doesn't help. He really needs to listen to his PR person the way everyone else on the list did.

[Gillio]

I also thought some of the reader comments about Bob Marley and John Lennon sort of exemplify this.

We often choose our own reality. It's hard sometimes to face facts, and people disregarded the facts about the photo in light of what it represented for them.

This is very true. I think also we try to attribute roles played by actors as being their personality, not the role.

I always remember workmates saying "but they were so much in love!!" when Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman divorced. I was saying "They are Actors , how would you know?"

[Elder Sister]

I think Castel is right - we are quick to forgive people who act like they're sorry, even when subsequent actions show they really weren't...we just appreciate the lip service, apparently.

ETA: Professional sports players are a great example of this - there are guys that repeatedly get into scrapes and as long as they act all hangdog and contrite, man we eat that up. The guys that are defiant get harsher treatment.

And yeah, Gillio...that's very true.

I hate the cult of celebrity that we seem to worship these days. Blech.

[kairparavel]

I think Chris Brown's biggest problem is not his skin colour, but his continued lack of maturity in dealing with his actions.

[Tears of Lys]

Well let's not forget Adrien Brody then in the seconds after he won the Oscar.

I understand rape culture and entitlement and power, but I also understand elation, jubilation, and sheer joy. That is to say, assault is a regular occurrence, but the war ending and winning an Oscar does not. Where do extraordinary circumstances come to play? Or can they not?

I remember being shocked when that happened. She certainly didn't look like she enjoyed it either.

[Castel]

I think Castel is right - we are quick to forgive people who act like they're sorry, even when subsequent actions show they really weren't...we just appreciate the lip service, apparently.

A lot of people forgave Chris Brown. It was his ridiculous reaction to being asked about this (flipping out and breaking stuff) that caused it to be that big an issue again. IF he had slapped on a look of remorse or distaste and said something like 'That was a part of my life I wasn't proud of and I've made my peace with God and want to move on" THEN flipped out to his publicist, who then made it clear to everyone that those questions were offbounds we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But honestly, people can forgive anything. Look at Roman Polanski. It helps if the person that was abused wasn't a beloved celebrity as well.

ETA: Professional sports players are a great example of this - there are guys that repeatedly get into scrapes and as long as they act all hangdog and contrite, man we eat that up. The guys that are defiant get harsher treatment.

I've always found the weird relationship between sportsmen and the fans amazing. It seems ridiculous that people have to go up and give public apologies for things that don't concern anyone but themselves and if they don't they get crucified. But if they do..nothing happens. I don't get why the apology automatically erases the bad they did.

Everyone knows that the apologies mean fuck all, yet we ask for it.

[Elder Sister]

yeah, we do - that's the whole point I'm making. How many times have we read about Alec Baldwin or Sean Penn acting an ass, but we give them a pass because they act contrite later?

I would think more of Chris Brown if he never lays another hand on another creature again, and still acts defiant about it. But that's not how it works. Society doesn't care if you really are repentent about it, they just want to be able to watch you pretend to be repentent.

It's bizarre.

[litechick]

I'm glad the Scary Movie Guy blog made it into this thread because it highlights a point I tried to make in a previous thread and got nowhere with. Without meaning any disrespect to either the clutchers or the clutchees, I consider this learned behavior.

Bear with me because I have a very specific example tied to this. On the elementary school playground I remember a day when the boys decided it would be great fun to sneak up on girls and scare them. The first girl they tried it on didn't react and they were disappointed. They moved on to another girl and she squealed in a very satisfying manner so the boys were pleased, the girl got attention and approval.

Long story short, it was abundantly clear that a female who wants respect and equality should not react but if she wants to be noticed as a female and get that attention and approval, she better squeal. Unfortunately for straight females, we often want both--respect and attention.

Of course the real kick to the ovaries is that while men endorse and encourage that behavior, they will also use it as an argument why women just 'aren't meant' to do certain jobs. "The last thing we need in the military is a bunch of chicks on maneuvers who will squeal when they hear a twig snap." I'm sure we've all heard that logic before.

This is why I have argued that the mating dance is the greatest obstacle to gender equality. Whether it's the squeal and clutch or high heels, tight skirts, and a fear of spiders--many of the things which make women attractive to men make women less capable.

Let me be clear that I am not talking about men/women on the board. I know there is a chorus of men here who are anxious to point out that they find a woman who can deliver a roundhouse kick much more attractive than a woman in a tight skirt. I get it. Congratulations, I'm not talking about you.

How about that nurse in the WWII kiss? In the follow-up link, there are 3-4 pictures so that you can see the interaction over time. It isn't until the last photo that she is shown putting her arm up in a show of resistance. In the famous photos her body is in an attitude of total submission--to a stranger. I don't find this surprising at all. Even today you can probably find a Cosmo article suggesting that you shouldn't be too quick to slap that man grabbing your ass. He could be a millionaire or a doctor.

Of course, you do have to slap him eventually because if you don't you're a slut. A lady surrenders to the kiss, then slugs him. Just like in the cheerleading thread where it's great to display raw athleticism and grace, do as many midair splits as you can but once you hit the ground you better smooth that skirt down--what are you, a tramp?

Don't get me wrong. There are lots of modern examples of women who are both attractive and capable. Even in Gone With the Wind there's that scene where Scarlett brandishes her pistol and Rhett watches her drive away saying, "What a woman." I'm just pointing out that for a woman who is playing the numbers game--trying to be attractive to the largest possible group of men--a certain amount of helplessness is needed.

Pity the woman who is attracted to Scary Movie Guy. If she doesn't startle easily she's not getting invited to see that movie with him. It's all very well and good to say she shouldn't be attracted to him but come on, who are we kidding?

Since I have Gone With the Wind on the brain, there's another scene where Scarlett implores Mammy, "why does a girl have to act so silly to catch a husband?" Mammy responds, "I expect it's because gentlemen don't know what they want. They just know what they think they want.....gentlemen expect their wives to have sense."

On the topic of Feminism in 2012, it's appropriate to examine how we've progressed and how things stay the same. My feminist wish list would include squashing the madonna/whore double bind and making the female body less taboo.

There are many parents here so let me ask--what do you teach your daughters about acting ladylike? At what point do you instruct them to keep their knees together? Have you ever taken them aside and suggested that they shouldn't run without a sports bra? To me one of the key differences between men and women is that men have much less shame about their bodies and I can't think of a single example where a man would be judged with low character because of how he moves. As always, I am happy to be instructed.

[Elder Sister]

Litechick, interesting points. I agree with you on most of what you said, but will say that I don't know the timing factor on the WWII kiss. The nurse was probably shocked and then immediately began struggling.

I tried to teach my daughter to be true to herself more than anything else. I didn't want her to be a reflection of me or a stereotype. She's her own person. And she's very strong, very compassionate, very capable. I could not be more proud of her.

I don't know what it's like to raise boys, but I can tell you as a woman, and as a mother to a daughter, it's tough not letting the world influence your ideas about what is and isn't 'feminine ', or why that should even factor into anything. I think teaching and abiding by gender roles is damaging and limiting.

I tried to give her a sense of self. Not feminine self - just self. And that's hard sometimes in a world of Victoria's Secret, plastic surgery, airbrushed models, and so much other crap.

[straits]

Let me be clear that I am not talking about men/women on the board. I know there is a chorus of men here who are anxious to point out that they find a woman who can deliver a roundhouse kick much more attractive than a woman in a tight skirt. I get it. Congratulations, I'm not talking about you.

It's a vicious circle with the whole attraction to helplessness. Take a walk around a city with a major university in it after 11 pm and count the tight skirts.

Pity the woman who is attracted to Scary Movie Guy. If she doesn't startle easily she's not getting invited to see that movie with him. It's all very well and good to say she shouldn't be attracted to him but come on, who are we kidding?

Then why is she attracted to him? He's a negative stereotype, right? It's all good to say a guy shouldn't be attracted to the tight skirt girl, but who are we kidding?

On the topic of Feminism in 2012, it's appropriate to examine how we've progressed and how things stay the same. My feminist wish list would include squashing the madonna/whore double bind and making the female body less taboo.

There are many parents here so let me ask--what do you teach your daughters about acting ladylike? At what point do you instruct them to keep their knees together? Have you ever taken them aside and suggested that they shouldn't run without a sports bra? To me one of the key differences between men and women is that men have much less shame about their bodies and I can't think of a single example where a man would be judged with low character because of how he moves. As always, I am happy to be instructed.

Most men that I see on the street, regardless of age and country, and time of day, wear baggy clothing. So you can say the male body is not 'taboo', but often the male body is neither asked to be exibited, nor does it get exibited. In fact, peacocking for guys nowadays involves wearing more and more clothes. So maybe men are ashamed about their bodies? Maybe more ashamed than women, because a woman would wear clothes people would expect a guy to wear, but a man would not wear what a woman is expected to? For example, all my shirts' necklines are at the neck. I'd be ashamed to wear lower and I can't explain why because I don't expect anyone to stare anyways.

[Fragile Bird]

A lot of people forgave Chris Brown. It was his ridiculous reaction to being asked about this (flipping out and breaking stuff) that caused it to be that big an issue again. IF he had slapped on a look of remorse or distaste and said something like 'That was a part of my life I wasn't proud of and I've made my peace with God and want to move on" THEN flipped out to his publicist, who then made it clear to everyone that those questions were offbounds we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I was in the grocery store reading the trash magazines while waiting in line, like we all do (lol, I think), and I see that Chris and Rihanna have bee seen together again and have each sung on songs on each other's new cds, Now that is hard to take. And Brown has issued statements about being in love with two women (his current gf and ?) and so is therefore breaking up with the current gf so as not to cause her pain. What do you think about that?

And after reading that extremely interesting piece about The Kiss in Times Square, did you also notice the article about a GOT panel discussion at Geek Girl Con, George R.R. Martin and the misogyny in GOT?

But while there’s nothing too disturbing about a child (or grown-up) imagining that they can pick up a wand and do magic, there’s something very creepy about millions of people choosing to escape into a world where women are nothing more than objects to be bought and sold, where young girls are raped by the side of the road, and where the brutal killing of defenceless women is normalised.

ETA: We've had the discussion here, about reading the books critically through modern eyes, and the author doesn't buy the idea that's the way they are supposed to be read.

[straits]

"As Hodge rightly points out, the first point does not hold water. There were no skinny, icy killers called ‘The Others’ in Medieval England. Summer has never lasted eight years. No king of ours ever won his crown by riding a fire-breathing dragon into battle. So why glorify the brutalization of women? Martin was not forced to do so. Everything in the book was a choice, and he chose to mimic the extreme inequality of that era."

Can this person not discern between the setting of a story and the behaviour of characters? What, are humans going to be nicer in a world with a green sun? I stopped reading after that paragraph.

[Elder Sister]

And after reading that extremely interesting piece about The Kiss in Times Square, did you also notice the article about a GOT panel discussion at Geek Girl Con, George R.R. Martin and the misogyny in GOT?

I like some of the points that the author of this article makes, but I think they're a bit hard on GRRM. Maybe I feel that way because I love the series so much; I dunno. I hav noticed, though, as a member of this forum, how much harder we seem to be on the female characters than on the male characters. I think that's a great example of the unintentional misogyny we as a society engage in.

And when I have brought that subject up, people get extremely defensive about it. They'll tell you over and over why they are saying what they are saying, but the big picture is we are more harsh in our judgments of women. Therefore, if they get worse treatment in a work of fiction, most people don't really notice or care.

[Brienne the Beauty]

And after reading that extremely interesting piece about The Kiss in Times Square, did you also notice the article about a GOT panel discussion at Geek Girl Con, George R.R. Martin and the misogyny in GOT?

I don't think the series would have so many female fans if the misogyny in the books was as unironic as the article suggests. Too often mediaeval fantasies gloss over or romanticise the misogyny inherent in mediaeval civilization to make a "nice" story. I think women readers of the books appreciate the fact that the realities of mediaeval war are not sugar-coated, and that although some of the female characters are victimised, none of the viewpoint characters are helpless victims. The misogyny of their society is their main foe and challenge, just as the Others are Jon Snow's main foe and challenge.

ETA: We've had the discussion here, about reading the books critically through modern eyes, and the author doesn't buy the idea that's the way they are supposed to be read.

Unfortunately a lot of misogynist male readers read the books unironically cheering on all the misogyny. I was surprised to find out how positively male readers responded to the new character Victarion, a pirate with all the Jack Sparrow charm removed and all the raping and misogyny put back. A lot of male fans are rooting for his plan to rape Dany to go ahead as planned. Because she's too "uppity." Ugh.