Feminism in 2012

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

But then we'd have to go into the book forum. Can we have a separate book forum reserved for gen chatters? 11822

[Gillio]

Look they're nice people, mostly, get out there, make new friends.

[straits]

Look they're nice people, mostly, get out there, make new friends.

I believe that he used the sarcasm symbol, 11822!

[Guest Raidne]

Speaking of iconic images...

The true story behind that famous kiss from the celebration of WW2's ending.

Also, before you respond, read the follow-up, too.

Interesting story.

The comment section is enjoyable. Here's an article giving some more background on the story, I believe:

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz28TAh6cxv

And this one too.

What I miss from the first that I get in the second is that a sailor kissed a nurse because she was a nurse - the thing expressed was gratitude, but the manner in which it was expressed still would apply only to a woman, I'd guess. The fact that he did it in front of his wife does indicate it wasn't sexual in nature, however. Don't know, can't decide if it's like a guy getting kissed on both cheeks by another guy out of gratitude for his service or not. Still, painting it as "man grabs woman to make out with in celebration of the end of WWII" is not any more accurate than the myth. In fact, the author of the original piece could just as easily be criticized for reducing the nurse to just her sex, when it's her occupation that was the necessary condition for the sailor's reaction; although her sex was probably the necessary condition for the manner in which the emotion was expressed.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I was under the impression that it wasn't -- although their combined uniforms might be (part of) why they were the ones photographed, or at least who made it famous. One of the articles mentioned how he was going around kissing many of the women he came across, and she was just one of them.

[Guest Raidne]

A new book entitled 'The Kissing Sailor' details how, in August 1945, Mr Mendonsa, 22, was on leave after surviving battles in the Pacific, where he watched nurses care for wounded sailors.

As they set on their way, Mendonsa spotted a woman in a nurse’s uniform - he left Petry and rushed to grab her.

'The excitement of the war being over, plus I had a few drinks,' he told CBS. 'So when I saw the nurse, I grabbed her, and I kissed her.'

Didn't see the stuff about "kissing many women" that you mentioned, although who knows? He was pretty trashed, apparently.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Aha, not those articles, from Eisenstaedt.

In Times Square on V.J. Day I saw a sailor running along the street grabbing any and every girl in sight. Whether she was a grandmother, stout, thin, old, didn't make a difference. I was running ahead of him with my Leica looking back over my shoulder but none of the pictures that were possible pleased me. Then suddenly, in a flash, I saw something white being grabbed. I turned around and clicked the moment the sailor kissed the nurse.

ETA: And it's perfectly possible he embellished, or was conflating this sailor with others around; I know there are conflicting reports.

[TerraPrime]

Aha, not those articles, from Eisenstaedt.

ETA: And it's perfectly possible he embellished, or was conflating this sailor with others around; I know there are conflicting reports.

I appreciate that truth matters.

Let us remember, too, that there were several pictures taken, over a few seconds, of the event. It was not a jubilant quick smooch to show appreciation. The kiss went on for at least long enough for 4 to 5 pictures to be taken. Also, how shows gratitude by French-kissing? Or, in what social context is French-kissing a stranger, while immobilizing her in your embrace, an appropriate way to express thanks? If I grab a police officer off the street and French-kiss him for 4 seconds while restraining his arms, I'm just showing my gratitude for his service to our community? Or maybe if I were to get drunk first that'd be... what, more ok? Less problematic?

Ultimately, I would also argue that the intent doesn't matter. He violated her personal boundaries in a physical way, and that should be the start of our discussion. But alas, it is not. I read some posts at a different internet spot where someone was arguing that we couldn't say that he kissed her, because the evidence only showed their lips touching, and so it'd be more like he grabbed her hands and kissed her hands, so really, all this talk of rape culture and sexual assault are totally wrong. Seriously. So I am just not that interested in arguing about the basic fact, and I'd rather see us talking more about our reactions to this fact as people in 2012.

[Elder Sister]

Terra,

Regarding your point about discussing our reactions to the facts of the photo in 2012: I think there are two different schools of thought. There are people who apologize or make excuses for this, like for example, she's in a nurse's uniform, he's grateful etc., he's jubilant, drunk what have you. The second school of thought is that you have the truth come out about an iconic photo that represents, for many, the end of a terrible war.

One thing that I have noticed is that people from WWII era seem to glorify pretty much everything about that time. Society, the war, gender roles, etc. you don't see that as much with the Vietnam era. There is a much more cynical view about the world.

I think we have a tendency to maybe unintentionally glorify that time period as well.

[Maithanet]

So I am just not that interested in arguing about the basic fact, and I'd rather see us talking more about our reactions to this fact as people in 2012.

I think that part of the reason that many people, including myself, bristle at the suggestion that this picture is an endorsement of rape culture is the cultural baggage associated with the photo and how it represents that particular moment in American history, where American both victorious in World War II and coming into its own as the preeminent economic power in world.

I don't have any problem with calling what happened sexual assault - it is a pretty open and shut case. But those facts weren't known or reported until decades after the picture became famous, and thus I would argue that the moment the picture is capturing is representative of something bigger than the emotions of those two people, but rather of the joy sweeping the entire country. And thus saying that the picture is of sexual assault, while factually accurate, is mostly missing the point.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Oh no, Terra, I agree. Based on the interviews with all of the women who were candidates for being in that picture(*), I can't recall a single one who said it was consensual. About the best was that she "figured she should let him".

I just meant the quote as a counter to the idea that it was because the woman was a nurse(**) that the sailor kissed her. No, it's because she was a woman, and apparently quite a pretty one. The fact that he -- or other people present, if not this particular man -- were running around, basically kissing anybody they could get their hands on, it's just a fantastic example of not seeing other people as people, with their own desires and agency.

(*) Although Mendonsa and Friedman seem to be the currently-accepted people, it's been under debate for decades. Still is, although not as hotly.

(**) Dental hygienist.

[Dinsdale!]

I was in the grocery store reading the trash magazines while waiting in line, like we all do (lol, I think), and I see that Chris and Rihanna have bee seen together again and have each sung on songs on each other's new cds, Now that is hard to take. And Brown has issued statements about being in love with two women (his current gf and ?) and so is therefore breaking up with the current gf so as not to cause her pain. What do you think about that?

More than seen together; there's good reason to believe they've fucked. I think that this should be the focal point of a conversation about abusive relationships. Because the way Rihanna and Chris Brown are acting may be really pathological by normal people standards, but is really common in abusive relationships.

Victims of abuse defend their abuser, in both internal dialogue with themselves and externally to other people. They make excuses for behavior that can't be excused. Their perception of reality and what is fair interplay between a couple is completely warped; they accept their abusers argument that the abuse is the victim's fault. "He wouldn't have hit me, if I hadn't acted so stupid. Why do I have to act stupid all the time!?"

If like Rihanna, they've had an abusive childhood, than they strongly associate abusive behavior with affection. Jealousy and controlling behavior is taken as affection. Lack of that behavior is taken to be lack of affection. And one can't doubt the intensity of an abusive relationship, an intensity which some victims find reassuring. Consequently, some victims of abuse will repeatedly enter into new and return to old abusive relationships.

Rihanna is just a very public example of this. And we could use her as an example to think of how to help women* who are repeatedly abused. But I don't think that is happening.

* and men. It's less common a situation certainly, but also more likely to be kept hidden and unaddressed due to the stigma of revealing it and society's general belief that it does not happen.

[Castel]

I was in the grocery store reading the trash magazines while waiting in line, like we all do (lol, I think), and I see that Chris and Rihanna have bee seen together again and have each sung on songs on each other's new cds, Now that is hard to take. And Brown has issued statements about being in love with two women (his current gf and ?) and so is therefore breaking up with the current gf so as not to cause her pain. What do you think about that?

As said above they've apparently had sex and all. I would hope that Rihanna has seen some change in him that can lead to this reconciliation but I doubt it. I really fucking doubt it. Hopefully they're trying to find some way to avoid the problems they had before. I honestly don't know about how bad their relationship was before the beating to talk about how abusive it was.

I try not to judge,but imo it's a good rule of thumb to stay away from people that are violent in any way, but some people may feel the need to forgive "lapses". I personally think that people who can do that once cannot be trusted. Going back to someone like that seems like a terrible idea, especially if you're Rihanna.

On Brown breaking up with his current girlfriend: well, at least that's decent.

The bad thing obviously is that people might take this as a justification for staying in abusive relationships (which iirc Rihanna was worried about).

If like Rihanna, they've had an abusive childhood, than they strongly associate abusive behavior with affection

Rihanna had an abusive childhood? Didn't know that.

[Shryke]

I appreciate that truth matters.

Let us remember, too, that there were several pictures taken, over a few seconds, of the event. It was not a jubilant quick smooch to show appreciation. The kiss went on for at least long enough for 4 to 5 pictures to be taken. Also, how shows gratitude by French-kissing? Or, in what social context is French-kissing a stranger, while immobilizing her in your embrace, an appropriate way to express thanks? If I grab a police officer off the street and French-kiss him for 4 seconds while restraining his arms, I'm just showing my gratitude for his service to our community? Or maybe if I were to get drunk first that'd be... what, more ok? Less problematic?

Ultimately, I would also argue that the intent doesn't matter. He violated her personal boundaries in a physical way, and that should be the start of our discussion. But alas, it is not. I read some posts at a different internet spot where someone was arguing that we couldn't say that he kissed her, because the evidence only showed their lips touching, and so it'd be more like he grabbed her hands and kissed her hands, so really, all this talk of rape culture and sexual assault are totally wrong. Seriously. So I am just not that interested in arguing about the basic fact, and I'd rather see us talking more about our reactions to this fact as people in 2012.

I just don't see why it matters. Nothing about the things the photo represents to people intersects with the new information about it being forced sexual contact.

It's never been seen as a photo about sex or gender relations or any of that.

[Guest Raidne]

All I'm suggesting is that the discussion start with a sailor who kissed a nurse, not a sailor who kissed a woman or a man who kissed a nurse.

Other than that, all I recall doing is asking some questions, so in the game of "who is Terra's straw man," I'm out.

I will add that I happen to be in a situation where I read what men who were at war think about women and the feminine more than the average person, and I think it raises some much larger, very problematic questions that aren't well-served by reducing the issue to sexual assault. I just don't think it helps to pull all of the texture out of it, especially since we just added so much.

[Fragile Bird]

More than seen together; there's good reason to believe they've fucked. I think that this should be the focal point of a conversation about abusive relationships. Because the way Rihanna and Chris Brown are acting may be really pathological by normal people standards, but is really common in abusive relationships.

Victims of abuse defend their abuser, in both internal dialogue with themselves and externally to other people. They make excuses for behavior that can't be excused. Their perception of reality and what is fair interplay between a couple is completely warped; they accept their abusers argument that the abuse is the victim's fault. "He wouldn't have hit me, if I hadn't acted so stupid. Why do I have to act stupid all the time!?"

As said above they've apparently had sex and all. I would hope that Rihanna has seen some change in him that can lead to this reconciliation but I doubt it. I really fucking doubt it. Hopefully they're trying to find some way to avoid the problems they had before. I honestly don't know about how bad their relationship was before the beating to talk about how abusive it was.

I try not to judge,but imo it's a good rule of thumb to stay away from people that are violent in any way, but some people may feel the need to forgive "lapses". I personally think that people who can do that once cannot be trusted. Going back to someone like that seems like a terrible idea, especially if you're Rihanna.

On Brown breaking up with his current girlfriend: well, at least that's decent.

The bad thing obviously is that people might take this as a justification for staying in abusive relationships (which iirc Rihanna was worried about)..

Absolutely agree.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Maithanet

But those facts weren't known or reported until decades after the picture became famous, and thus I would argue that the moment the picture is capturing is representative of something bigger than the emotions of those two people, but rather of the joy sweeping the entire country. And thus saying that the picture is of sexual assault, while factually accurate, is mostly missing the point.

I think that is part of what's muddying the water. We see that in comments responding to the blog post. The critique was never about the picture glorifying sexual assault. The critique was on how the recent coverage of this new discovery failed to, in 2012, address the very prominent issue of how women's bodies/autonomy had been subjugated in the past (and still going on, for sure).

That said, I do find it problematic that some people can still find that picture idyllic or inspirational if they now know the true story behind it. I, for one, will not be able to look at that picture again without seeing a sexual assault in progress. So perhaps that is indeed a genuine sort of anger to this analysis, because it is indeed demolishing the romantic notions associated with this picture.

Re: Aoife

I just meant the quote as a counter to the idea that it was because the woman was a nurse(**) that the sailor kissed her. No, it's because she was a woman, and apparently quite a pretty one. The fact that he -- or other people present, if not this particular man -- were running around, basically kissing anybody they could get their hands on, it's just a fantastic example of not seeing other people as people, with their own desires and agency.

Just so.

And the lack of appropriate (imo, of course) critique of what this picture depicts in the recent news coverage is what makes it relevant to our time.

Re: Shryke

It's never been seen as a photo about sex or gender relations or any of that.

I agree.

AndI find that to be the largest part of the problem: We have grafted a narrative of triumphant homecoming onto the image of a sexual assault. I find that very troubling. We, of course, didn't know this was the case until recently, so it was not a deliberate act. Yet, deliberate or not, we have been erasing the assault of a woman in service to our public narrative about the ending of WWII.

[Shryke]

I agree.

AndI find that to be the largest part of the problem: We have grafted a narrative of triumphant homecoming onto the image of a sexual assault. I find that very troubling. We, of course, didn't know this was the case until recently, so it was not a deliberate act. Yet, deliberate or not, we have been erasing the assault of a woman in service to our public narrative about the ending of WWII.

Are we?

I'm saying that context wasn't erased, it's irrelevant. The photo is important (or, at least, well known) because it represents something. Nothing about this new information undercuts what it represents. It's just a bit of historical trivia. It's like finding out what the guy on the right here ate for dinner the night before. It doesn't really matter.

I mean, the reaction to this new information can certainly be seen as indicative of current cultural attitudes towards this sexual assault, but that doesn't really come back to the photo itself.

[sologdin]

but the WW2 image is an unacknowledged crime, whereas the vietnam image is an acknowledged crime. certainly that distinction is important?

[Elder Sister]

but the WW2 image is an unacknowledged crime, whereas the vietnam image is an acknowledged crime. certainly that distinction is important?

I think it is. And I think it reflects how we as a society tend to gloss over and view that time period, the WWII era, through rose colored glasses.