R+L=J #33

[FrozenFire3]

Fair enough. Someone upthread said that Jon was of Ice and Fire, IMO Jon being of Stark blood matters the most.

IF Jon is the fruit of a starcrossed, dychotomic (ice and fire) love, it simply CANNOT be irrelevant. It's one of the basic rules of narrative. You don't introduce a plot twist of such a relevance if you don't intend this element to impact the story or/and the development of a character.

It will be a shock for Jon and he will struggle to accept it but in the end Ned is no stranger to him. He is still his blood. And being the child of Lyanna will put to rest his torments and doubts about his mother: she was a highborn lady, beautiful and wild, brave and kind hearted (ask Howland Reed...), she didn't abandon him, she had him out of love. As for his dragon father, we really don't know how this is going to play. Too many variables. IMHO it all comes to this, if Jon will have a chance to 'access' - one way or another - Rhaegar's inner feelings and thoughts. The ponderous weight of his emotions. All the plausible witnesses (Lyanna and Arthur in primis) are dead BUT what about the weirwood net? What about a material legacy? Is a piece of Rhaegar's resting in the crypts with his beloved Lyanna? A letter, a song... even Lightbringer. Keep reading, folks :lol:

I must have hit a nerve for both Alia and FrozenFire to comment on that.

Not at all. You simply affirmed a truth. When it comes to attraction we are all a bit pigs ;) I just playfully pointed out that we... drool in different ways LOL

For instance, when I spot a handsome guy, before thinking of anyhting else I have to be moved to tears by his singing performance, test his loyalty in the face of my little escapades, his prowess on the jousting field, share a thousand and one tales, dream together a few prophetic dreams and run away with him as far from the cruel world as possible... Am I asking too much??? :rofl:

Thats a good point on Jon.

As his story evolves, and certainly when he "recovers" he may begin to resemble a dragon more than a wolf, (though I imagine it may be a source of pride for him to find that his Mother was the KotLT, as well his relationship with Arya making sense).

I've often speculated that Jon by nurture may be a Stark, but by nature and instinct, he may have been a dragon all along and that could be a good thing, or a bad thing.

:agree:

[Kosh Naranek]

Sometimes I believe AA, the Prince that was Promised and the Last Hero are three renditions of the same tale. Other times I think not.

I have about come to the conclusion that Rhaegar was the Prince that was Promised because intentionally or no, he set a lot of things in motion.

I change my mind about all this on a daily basis though.

Jon for the AA win though.

[Alia of the knife]

I totally agree. Which is part of why I think he will be of Ice, not fire.

As a heretic, crack pot, and conspiracy nut job, I think that his Targ blood is throwing you off. Aegon was the song of Ice and Fire, not Jon. But then I believe that AA and ptwp are not the same.

I must have hit a nerve for both Alia and FrozenFire to comment on that.

Nope, I tend not to be an overt drooler, but I was drawing distinctions between what I personally like. ;)

And I stay away from name-calling, because to me, this is all in fun. :D

In terms of Aegon being the child of Ice and Fire, I don't see where that fits the narrative, because at best Aegon might be considered fire and fire, given the Sigil for House Martell is the Sun.

[Zupoleon]

In terms of Aegon being the child of Ice and Fire, I don't see where that fits the narrative, because at best Aegon might be considered fire and fire, given the Sigil for House Martell is the Sun.

Exactly, I guess that makes him a sunburn then... ;)

To say Jon is ice is to ignore who his father is. Unless I missed something, he's the only character we know of to this point that is a product of ice and fire - which makes him quite unique. I would be concerned about his Targaryen roots if his dad was Aerys, but with what we know of Rhaegar, he got the best of the bloodline...

[y ddraig]

What about a material legacy? Is a piece of Rhaegar's resting in the crypts with his beloved Lyanna? A letter, a song... even Lightbringer. Keep reading, folks :lol:

Do we know what happened to Rhaegar's sword? We hear so much about rubies, and about Blackfyre and Dark Sister being the ancient Targaryen family swords, but I don't recall hearing anything about Rhaegar's (or Aerys's) swords. That's a bit weird, isn't it? If Rhaegar was convinced that he, or later his son, would be AA reborn, surely he'd have looked for a suitable Lightbringer? I find the lack of information quite suspicious. Maybe you're on to something.

[Alia of the knife]

Exactly, I guess that makes him a sunburn then... ;)

To say Jon is ice is to ignore who his father is. Unless I missed something, he's the only character we know of to this point that is a product of ice and fire - which makes him quite unique. I would be concerned about his Targaryen roots if his dad was Aerys, but with what we know of Rhaegar, he got the best of the bloodline...

And of course, given the snippets of what we found out about Brandon, while he isn't evil or mad, there seems to be a curve of behavior amongst the Starks which suggests they aren't perfect either.

If you look back into their past, it seems they have as many scary family members as the Targs. do.

While the Starks are proud and honor is important to them, (much like the Daynes but who also have an exception to the rule- Darkstar), and with Lyanna perhaps being a cross between Brandon, (wild wolf), Ned (the staunchly honorable wolf), and she being Jons Mother, he may have gotten the best of Stark blood too.

(Though it may be stretching to go so far to say that Rhaegar and Lyanna had all their bloodlines strengths and none of the weaknesses given how things did play out).

Do we know what happened to Rhaegar's sword? We hear so much about rubies, and about Blackfyre and Dark Sister being the ancient Targaryen family swords, but I don't recall hearing anything about Rhaegar's (or Aerys's) swords. That's a bit weird, isn't it? If Rhaegar was convinced that he, or later his son, would be AA reborn, surely he'd have looked for a suitable Lightbringer? I find the lack of information quite suspicious. Maybe you're on to something.

I've always believed there was something hidden in those crypts:

- A Targaryen marriage cloak

- A sword

- Lyannas Shield

- A Dragons Egg for Jon, (and the fire at Winterfell hatched it).

- A letter written by Rhaegar for Lyanna that maybe Ned was able to get hold of.

[lojzelote]

To say Jon is ice is to ignore who his father is.

But (a metaphorical) Ice Dragon ("Nothing burns more than cold.") sounds much cooler than a boring balanced Song. :P

[Alia of the knife]

Am I the only one that thinks the subterannean envrivonment under Winterfell is a little reminiscent of the mines spoken of by the FM?

I know that Valaryia was much more tropical and volcanic than the North, but the idea of the hot springs, and the evidence of hot water running through the walls, keeping it warm, (whats it's source)?, as well as the idea that the Starks themselves may be sitting on mines in terms of their personal wealth, (as discussed in another thread), makes me think that that might be an ideal environment for incubation of dragons eggs- which leads me to wonder again about the possibility of Ice Dragons and that Valaryia may not have been the only source of origination for Dragons.

[Erudain]

There could be a dragon egg under Winterfell but..... I don't think there was a grown up Dragon invernating down there (as lots of ppl believe due to Bran/Summer POV) and that he is the cause of the hot springs and the water in the walls and bla bla bla...no, just no

[Old-Growth]

Erudain: just so.

[Alia of the knife]

There could be a dragon egg under Winterfell but..... I don't think there was a grown up Dragon invernating down there (as lots of ppl believe due to Bran/Summer POV) and that he is the cause of the hot springs and the water in the walls and bla bla bla...no, just no

No, I don't mean a grown, or hatched dragon, and I've always took Brans vision of the dragon image as a foreshadowing to Jon.

My main question is what is the source of the heat, and I never thought it was a dragon, but the other way around and some volcanic activity, but, whatever geological event is taking place within the geography of the North and Winterfell, it can still make for a natural enrivironment for the incubation of an egg.

So, the environment comes first, and then the animal that adapts and evolves.

And since we're dealing with Westerosi biology, I would assume there may be a dormant period, and that over time, perhaps a period of one hundred of years, and under the right circumstances, they hatch.

As I said, I personally tend to think Brans vision is more of a foreshadowing of Jon, but as an alternative theory of it being a literal dragon, it would not be inconsistent with the hatching of Danys dragons of around the same time and circumstances.

Edit: As a few posters have stated, the whole "Dragon has Three Heads" thing may be a red herring itself, and Danys dragons as well, because the one thats a true dragon may mean having three idenities, or wearing three crowns:

1) King beyond the Wall

2) King of the North

3) King of a United Seven Kingdoms.

Or, AA, so the idea that Jon might actually have his own Dragon, particular to him is not outside the realm of possibility.

(See GRRM's "The Ice Dragon").

[Black Wolf Smith]

Nothing of what you say suggests in the slightest way that the prophecy requires or even hints that there is more than one person prophesied rather than one known by two different names. Why is it that the latter is so difficult for some to wrap their heads around? Do you really think you know better than Aemon and Marwyn and Moqorro?

Thats funny, lot of heretics think R'hollor and the great other are 2 names for the same thing.

GRRM has said many times there is no black or white in aSoIaF. I could not find the quote, but he said in one of the Spainish interviews that "prophecy is a two edge sword" and many other things thru over the years, including in one of the books about prophecy biting off you cock. So you really think that we( or characters in the books) have it all right? How many times has any one gotten a prophecy right( other then Moqorro) really? The way they thought, not saying the prophecy was wrong, but its never straight forward. In the interview I was looking for he tells of about a man who was told a castle would fall on him, and the man stayed away from Castles. He went to an Inn and a sign fell on him, killing him, and the sign said Castle Inn.

Read my Sig lines, I pretty much admit I am a bit out there but if you think anything in this book is as simple as it looks, we have been reading different series.

[Lady Octarina]

I've always believed there was something hidden in those crypts:

- A Targaryen marriage cloak

- A sword

- Lyannas Shield

- A Dragons Egg for Jon, (and the fire at Winterfell hatched it).

- A letter written by Rhaegar for Lyanna that maybe Ned was able to get hold of.

I would add:

- Rhaegar's harp

Lyanna's shield (if you mean the KotLT's) is unlikely, as I'm sure Aerys would have gladly burned it to show off his power and menace whoever meant to challenge him.

Am I the only one that thinks the subterannean envrivonment under Winterfell is a little reminiscent of the mines spoken of by the FM?

I know that Valaryia was much more tropical and volcanic than the North, but the idea of the hot springs, and the evidence of hot water running through the walls, keeping it warm, (whats it's source)?, as well as the idea that the Starks themselves may be sitting on mines in terms of their personal wealth, (as discussed in another thread), makes me think that that might be an ideal environment for incubation of dragons eggs- which leads me to wonder again about the possibility of Ice Dragons and that Valaryia may not have been the only source of origination for Dragons.

:agree:

Or, if not dragons, some creatures that have dragon-ish characteristics, maybe "distant cousins" or whatever the northern correspondent is. Could you point me to this thread you mention?

[Black Wolf Smith]

IF Jon is the fruit of a starcrossed, dychotomic (ice and fire) love, it simply CANNOT be irrelevant. It's one of the basic rules of narrative. You don't introduce a plot twist of such a relevance if you don't intend this element to impact the story or/and the development of a character¹.

It will be a shock for Jon and he will struggle to accept it but in the end Ned is no stranger to him. He is still his blood. And being the child of Lyanna will put to rest his torments and doubts about his mother: she was a highborn lady, beautiful and wild, brave and kind hearted (ask Howland Reed...), she didn't abandon him, she had him out of love. As for his dragon father, we really don't know how this is going to play. Too many variables. IMHO it all comes to this, if Jon will have a chance to 'access' - one way or another² - Rhaegar's inner feelings and thoughts. The ponderous weight of his emotions.

Not at all. You simply affirmed a truth. When it comes to attraction we are all a bit pigs ;) I just playfully pointed out that we... drool in different ways LOL

For instance, when I spot a handsome guy, before thinking of anyhting else I have to be moved to tears by his singing performance, test his loyalty in the face of my little escapades, his prowess on the jousting field, share a thousand and one tales, dream together a few prophetic dreams and run away with him as far from the cruel world as possible... Am I asking too much³???

1. R + L = J? Of coarse it will impact the story, but in the end it wil be his Stark blood, and not his Targ that will matter. If not I am not sure what you mean.

2. I agree that he will be conflicted by it, but IMO he will finally accept himself as a member of the Stark family.

3. Damn, I guess as a old, fat, bald, and broke, I am out of luck.

[Alia of the knife]

I would add:

- Rhaegar's harp

Lyanna's shield (if you mean the KotLT's) is unlikely, as I'm sure Aerys would have gladly burned it to show off his power and menace whoever meant to challenge him.

:agree:

Or, if not dragons, some creatures that have dragon-ish characteristics, maybe "distant cousins" or whatever the northern correspondent is. Could you point me to this thread you mention?

It was thread:

"Were the Starks Poor?"

And the discussion was about the source of their wealth.

Rhaegars Harp would be very cool.

Martins Ice Dragon was indeed unique because it was set in a Northern climate as well, and you are correct that it wasn't exactly like other Dragons, and on some level stronger than the others.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Or, if not dragons, some creatures that have dragon-ish characteristics, maybe "distant cousins" or whatever the northern correspondent is. Could you point me to this thread you mention?

When Ygritte talked of people living under the wall, I thought it might be firewyrms. Maybe under WF too.

[Scarlet Seastar]

I would add:

- Rhaegar's harp

Lyanna's shield (if you mean the KotLT's) is unlikely, as I'm sure Aerys would have gladly burned it to show off his power and menace whoever meant to challenge him.

:agree:

Or, if not dragons, some creatures that have dragon-ish characteristics, maybe "distant cousins" or whatever the northern correspondent is. Could you point me to this thread you mention?

I agree that there must be something of R+L=J down in the crypts.

Wouldn't the Ice dragon be a some sort of a cousin to the Fire dragons? Anatomically speaking, they must be different, but of the same family. :D

[Alia of the knife]

"The Ice Dragon," by GRRM.

http://ebooks-imgs.c...00255193_s4.png

If you look at the image on the book, it's appearance seems consistent with it's point of origin.

Another image, one ice and one fire, though not from Martin.

http://images4.fanpo...13-1280-942.jpg

[Lady Octarina]

1. R + L = J? Of coarse it will impact the story, but in the end it wil be his Stark blood, and not his Targ that will matter. If not I am not sure what you mean.

But what would be the point of revealing he is Rhaegar's son if in the end it doesn't make any difference? If only his Stark blood is to matter, than it would make more sense for him to be simply Ned's bastard, which all 33 R+L=J have proved to be unlikely.

It was thread:

"Were the Starks Poor?"

And the discussion was about the source of their wealth.

Rhaegars Harp would be very cool.

Martins Ice Dragon was indeed unique because it was set in a Northern climate as well, and you are correct that it wasn't exactly like other Dragons, and on some level stronger than the others.

Thank you :cool4:

And after all this time, I still haven't read The Ice Dragon. I'll see if I can do so (beginning with the Dreamsongs vol.1 version) this weekend.

[Alia of the knife]

But what would be the point of revealing he is Rhaegar's son if in the end it doesn't make any difference? If only his Stark blood is to matter, than it would make more sense for him to be simply Ned's bastard, which all 33 R+L=J have proved to be unlikely.

Thank you :cool4:

And after all this time, I still haven't read The Ice Dragon. I'll see if I can do so (beginning with the Dreamsongs vol.1 version) this weekend.

Oh no!!! :)

Well, your going to be busy this weekend, because you can read "The Ice Dragon," in one sitting, (and it will make you cry). :crying:

You also have to catch "The Walking Dead," this Sunday, so you can't be disturbed. :cool4:

You may even have to take Monday off. :drool: