Concerning LF

[Fat Mac]

Littlefinger is my favorite character. In that society, his relationship with Sansa is only creepy because he previously dug her mom and married her aunt. It should have nothing to do with her age. After all, don't people still pair Tyrion and Sansa?

Littlefinger has achieved things people could only dream of. Sure, thousands had to die so he could achieve it, but it shows skill and dedication nontheless.

[Antonius Pius]

All above are forum favourites, just examples.

Hmmm, I don't recall parading Tywin as the figurehead of good parenting...

I'd say LF and Varys, while Machiavellian, murdering bastards who helped start the war of the Five Kings, are actually quite decent compared to the above.

Not decent enough in my books as LF is probably a pederast but it's kinda hypocrite to diss LF (and Varys) while loving characters who have sinned like hell and perhaps more so then LF.

So they're all scumbags. LF is setting up a continent for war, just because he can. And he wants to settle an old score. Doesn't really place him out of the running of the election for Worst Person in Westeros.

[Mikkel]

Liking Jaime Lannister, a child-tossing twincest vain and egotistical man who murdered his first employer he swore an oath to and passed his own brood off as his second employer's to whome he also swore an oath to. Helped start the War of Five Kings costing thousends in lives and millions in property damage.

I'd say LF and Varys, while Machiavellian, murdering bastards who helped start the war of the Five Kings, are actually quite decent compared to the above.

I fail to see the difference between Jaime and what you yourself agrees that LF and Varys are doing, the only exception being Bran, which was of course horrible, but I'm sure LF and Varys have done equally nasty things (both were part of the decision to assassinate a pregnant Dany and her unborn child for instance).

[Antonius Pius]

Littlefinger has achieved things people could only dream of. Sure, thousands had to die so he could achieve it, but it shows skill and dedication nontheless.

Did you forget a smiley?

[Scipio Africanus]

I fail to see the difference between Jaime and what you yourself agrees that LF and Varys are doing,

My point was actually more that my examples generate a lot of fans and that it was hypocrite to 'hate' LF (and Varys) while those characters have basically done similar. Except they're players in a board game LF and Varys have set up.

I could name other examples, almost every ASOFAI character can dirt be dug up on.

ps I'm not saying LF isn't an evil prick perhaps I phrased the post wrong.

[David Selig]

I find LF quite entertaining and his plotting makes for a great read, which is why I like him as a character. As a person though, he's quite pathetic. He had a crush at 15, got rejected, and has spend his whole life being angry over it and avenging it. This is pretty much the ultimate in pathetic behaviour IMO.

His "self-made" aspect is overrated too. He got most of his big breaks not because of his competence with money and plotting, but due to seducing Lysa and using her. basically he whored himself to get power. If he was a woman, I shudder to imagine how much derision he'd have gotten for this.

[kephv]

His "self-made" aspect is overrated too. He got most of his big breaks not because of his competence with money and plotting, but due to seducing Lysa and using her.

But he had to perform competently in the positions he was in, too. Everybody talks about how great of a master of coin he was, and the Tyrell plot that earned him Harrenhal was his as well.

[Antonius Pius]

LF definitely has ability, but he did use Lysa as a springboard. Without her, he'd never have gotten close to so much power, IMO.

My point was actually more that my examples generate a lot of fans and that it was hypocrite to 'hate' LF (and Varys) while those characters have basically done similar. Except they're players in a board game LF and Varys have set up.

I could name other examples, almost every ASOFAI character can dirt be dug up on.

ps I'm not saying LF isn't an evil prick perhaps I phrased the post wrong.

Makes sense.

[Mikkel]

But he had to perform competently in the positions he was in, too. Everybody talks about how great of a master of coin he was, and the Tyrell plot that earned him Harrenhal was his as well.

The Harrenhal plot was pretty good I'll admit, though it did feel a bit like him riding over there, saying "wanna kick Stannis' butt?" and the Tyrell's going "yeah!". That's probably being unfair to the man, though, so for arguments sake, I'll let him have it.

However, I'm still not convinced how much of a financial genius he really is. I mean, he's definitely not stupid or unskilled with money, but if he really is such a financial prodigy, why is Robert 6 million golden dragons in debt? You're not going to convince me that he drank it all up, or that tax collection could have been so hard during what was essentially 15 years of peace, minus the Greyjoy rebellion. Even if Robert was a laissez-faire ruler, Jon Arryn was not, so that doesn't explain it either.

He's somewhat financially successful on a personal level, I'm sure, what with his whorehouses and various other enterprises, and it may be that he has actually been doing great as Master of Coin and that without him Robert would have put the kingdom 60 million in debt. But to me it's just as likely that he's been using his position to 1) weaken the Iron Throne by having it go into almost insurmountable debt, and 2) used the coin to buy influence and people for whenever the time comes for his master plan to unfold.

[Mikkel]

My point was actually more that my examples generate a lot of fans and that it was hypocrite to 'hate' LF (and Varys) while those characters have basically done similar. Except they're players in a board game LF and Varys have set up.

I could name other examples, almost every ASOFAI character can dirt be dug up on.

ps I'm not saying LF isn't an evil prick perhaps I phrased the post wrong.

Well I'll agree with you there, I took your post to mean that LF and Varys were in fact better than the others you mention, and that's definitely not the case.

[Lummel]

But he had to perform competently in the positions he was in, too. Everybody talks about how great of a master of coin he was, and the Tyrell plot that earned him Harrenhal was his as well.

You think there are performance reviews in Westeros? ;)

He certainly produced flows of revenues, but he gets the Gulltown customs job courtesy of Lysa and then gets brought to Kings Landing and quite possibly the Master of Coin job was down to Lysa's influence on Jon Arryn as much as anything else.

Put it the other way, looking at other senior officials at court what would Littlefinger had to have done to get kicked out of the job? It's all about who your patron is rather than some objective measurement of talent or ability.

What Littlefinger actually did is debatable, I'm not the only one to suspect that he maybe embezzled or simply made use of Royal funds for his own benefit to create the wealth that he's drawing on now (and he certainly didn't get the money from his noble seat of Sheepshit on the Fingers). Judging from what Tyrion says about struggling to understand the royal accounts in ASOS I get the impression that there was no oversight or investigation into how Littlefinger did his job, therefore the impression that he did well could only come from him telling people that he was doing well and continuing to supply money. Supplying money of itself isn't a sign of competent financial performance - just think of pyramid schemes or people living off credit cards.

[Scipio Africanus]

What Littlefinger actually did is debatable, I'm not the only one to suspect that he maybe embezzled or simply made use of Royal funds for his own benefit to create the wealth that he's drawing on now (and he certainly didn't get the money from his noble seat of Sheepshit on the Fingers). Judging from what Tyrion says about struggling to understand the royal accounts in ASOS I get the impression that there was no oversight or investigation into how Littlefinger did his job, therefore the impression that he did well could only come from him telling people that he was doing well and continuing to supply money. Supplying money of itself isn't a sign of competent financial performance - just think of pyramid schemes or people living off credit cards.

Well considering our current financial crisis it's hard sometimes to figure out what went wrong in corporate and government finance, and how investment are tied up.

LF probably indebted the crown by taking out loans to pay for Bob's parties - but before LF simply spent it he reinvested it first. Probably also loaned others money from the original crown loans too. With Lannister gold as a security deposit. And as a bonus to him he probably skimmed money off the top so to speak, and invested those funds in property (brothels) and people (Kettlebacks).

Of course, when the creditor (Iron bank) comes knocking that they want payment for the original loans you have a problem because you don't actually have cash in the bank, just IOUs. So you need to loan even more money to pay off the original loans. Which only increases your debt. Kind of like state bonds work I suppose. Or how our banks loaned money with (crappy) morgages as security deposits.

And that concludes my understating of economics. ;)

But yes everything screams that LF was a crooked or rather 'creative' accountant. At any rate Westeros' financial system seems very primitive. I recall that several Roman emperors already knew how to devaluate their own currency and increase revenue through additional taxation. Something which Westeros doesn't seem to do.

[Little Wing]

One thing that I keep wondering about LF -- will he act on Cat's murder? It's not like he had a finger (no pun intended) in the RW, but his actions started it all (Cat's doubts and the decisions she made in AGoT), so I wonder whether he feels any guilt over it, however far fetched it may seem? Will we see LF do something unexpected out of his love (if it could ever be said that LF loved someone other than himself?) for Cat? Is he even capable of feeling love or guilt? The answer seems obvious, but... I'd like to see him DO something to avenge Cat's murder.

As for liking LF... yeah, I can't help it, his japes and wit are what makes him likeable, not to mention he's one of the most interesting characters.

[Sneak]

During the first two books I thought he was just some funny guy on the kings small council, but in ASOS, when the extent of his scheming is made apparent, he shot to the top of my list of favourite characters. I like his kind of character. I also like that he rose from the lowest of lords to Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of the Vale, and I think he is the best at the game of thrones.

Not to nitpick, but technically he is a hebephile not a paedophile.

[Mikkel]

Not to nitpick, but technically he is a hebephile not a paedophile.

In a society where a girl, once "flowered" is considered fair game, that's quite an important distinction. I still don't like the man, but if we were to judge him as he would be by his peers, there's nothing really wrong with his interest in Sansa. At least no more than you could say there's wrong with a man in his mid-30s being interested in a girl of 16-17 in our society - it's a bit creepy, but legal*. And then there's the fact that she's the daughter of the woman who was supposedly the love of his life (a love long turned to obsession and perhaps even cold hatred), which is also creepy - but legal.

*at least in my country, may be different elsewhere.

[Axrendale]

But yes everything screams that LF was a crooked or rather 'creative' accountant. At any rate Westeros' financial system seems very primitive. I recall that several Roman emperors already knew how to devaluate their own currency and increase revenue through additional taxation. Something which Westeros doesn't seem to do.

I would guess that it was not so much inability as it was unwillingness. There isn't much discussion of political economy in ASOIAF (not surprising, as it can be a very dry subject), but from what we do know of the workings of the royal treasury, the Seven Kingdoms has a somewhat centralized system of taxation (allies of the Lannisters had some of their tax burdens lightened in ASOS), and we can guess that the minting of coinage also falls under royal control (since the advent of a standardized currency dates from the Conquest). Increasing taxes and/or devaluing the coinage would both presumably be economically feasible policies, but we can hazard that they were avoided in the timeline of the series because they were not politically feasible. Higher taxes and an inflated currency are never popular even at the best of times, and in times of discord and strife they become even more undesirable. Jon Arryn likely wished to avoid antagonizing the lords of the realm with such measures in the immediate aftermath of a civil war, and after the War of the Five Kings broke out they became even less of an option (Kevan Lannister considered raising taxes in ADWD, but rejected the idea because at that point most lords "could not tell the difference between taxes and tyranny"). Still, Robert's extravagances and fancies were costing a huge amount, and the money had to come from somewhere, and so into the breach stepped Littlefinger, a man with an apparent wizardry for the processes of borrowing money to meet the crown's expenses. I'd don't buy the theory that says he was responsible for running up those expenses himself - even Tyrion, who had a chance to look into his labyrinthine accounts, blamed Robert as the man who had run up the expenses in the first place - he simply devised hideously complex methods of meeting them, from which he himself was no doubt profiting (as well as skimming money off the top to go into his own pocket, it can be guessed that he fostered some of his political alliances through the workings of the treasury).

[brashcandy]

In a society where a girl, once "flowered" is considered fair game, that's quite an important distinction. I still don't like the man, but if we were to judge him as he would be by his peers, there's nothing really wrong with his interest in Sansa. At least no more than you could say there's wrong with a man in his mid-30s being interested in a girl of 16-17 in our society - it's a bit creepy, but legal*. And then there's the fact that she's the daughter of the woman who was supposedly the love of his life (a love long turned to obsession and perhaps even cold hatred), which is also creepy - but legal.

*at least in my country, may be different elsewhere.

I think there's a lot wrong with his interest in Sansa, in particular his manipulation and sexual grooming. Remember that in AGOT - before Sansa flowered - LF was looking at her and making her feel as though she had no clothes on. His interest has always been warped and creepy, and Sansa's flowering in no way legitimizes that or makes it acceptable.

[Faithmemory]

I also like Littlefinger, he's interesting!... but

When it comes to being mysterious and best GoT player...

Varys > Littlefinger

but, I can't wait for LF's plan explosions.

[Where Boars Glow]

Littlefinger is the enbodiment of the American dream. Come from nothing and works his way to greatness through grit, hardwork, cunning and determaination. Oh and moral flexibility.

[Sneak]

I think there's a lot wrong with his interest in Sansa, in particular his manipulation and sexual grooming. Remember that in AGOT - before Sansa flowered - LF was looking at her and making her feel as though she had no clothes on. His interest has always been warped and creepy, and Sansa's flowering in no way legitimizes that or makes it acceptable.

It is very wrong from our modern perspective, but try to look at it from a Westeros POV. Loads of men look at Sansa in a sexual way. LF, Tyrion, the Hound, that stable boy, Marrilion. And please keep in mind that I am in no way condoning their interest in Sansa, I think it's wrong, I'm just trying to look at it through Westerosi eyes.

And yes, it was really creepy in AGOT, from both a modern and Westerosi perspective.