*Possible Spoilers* The North's Relationship with the Targaryens...Theory

[Lord Varys]

Torrhen Stark or his heir might very well have gotten their share of Targaryen wives. We know now that Aegon apparently very often shared the bed with Rhaenys, and since he had at least one son with Visenya (Maegor), with whom he was not on so good terms, I'd be surprised if Aenys was the only child Rhaenys ever had.

If Aegon had indeed only two sons, but more than two daughters (or daughters who were much younger/older than Aenys and Maegor) he would have to find matches for them. I very much doubt that Maegor had more than one Targaryen bride in his harem, so it's entirely possible that Torrhen or his heir was married to a Targaryen princess. I doubt that the Aegon's sons ended up taking non-Valyrians as their principal wives, and later on at least one of Viserys's I wives was partly Targaryen due to an earlier marriage into either House Arryn or Hightower. And Rhaenyra's first consort Lord Strong of Harrenhal most likely also had Targaryen blood in him (which could also explain why Lucomore 'the Lusty' Strong got his position in the Kingsguard).

The Starks would be the best candidates to marry a Targaryen spare daughter, besides the Baratheons and Velaryons. And we should keep in mind that Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have had quite a lot of siblings, and quite a lot of children as well. They loved each other very much, apparently, and lived a long and healthy life.

A main reason for Jaehaerys and Alysanne to travel to Winterfell - this business Jaehaerys had with his Warden of the North - could have been to attend yet another Targaryen-Stark-marriage. A Targaryen princess could have been married to Lord Stark, and it's even possible that Viserys's I mother/father was a Stark, married to the yet unknown Prince/Princess of Dragonstone (we don't know anything about Viserys's parents, and it's not impossible that Jaehaerys and Alysanne intended to make a daughter their successor).

As to Jon becoming a dragon rider: He is a warg, and if he is Rhaegar's son he would have dragon blood as well. That should be enough to tame a dragon. And since it's going to be a while until Dany and her dragons arrive in Westeros, let alone until they reach the Wall or meet Jon, it's entirely likely that Jon has mastered his abilities as a warg then. More importanly, Ghost is not immortal. I'd not be surprised if the revelation of Jon's ancestry coincides with Ghost's death. If Jon being Rhaegar's son is going to be an important part of the story, he will become a dragon rather than a wolf, and this might have consequences. And we should also keep in mind that Jon's enemies might end up hunting Ghost if they find out that his spirit survived within the animal, especially if they have reason to believe that Melisandre (or somebody else) preserves his body until she can transfer his soul back into it.

[jsw2289]

But did she not have a fire ball from Drogon burn all around her and she didn't get hurt? Also, at least in the series, she has a very high tolerance to heat (getting in the steaming hot bath) and when Viserys has molten gold poured over his head and dies is she is comforted by the fact that he did not survive this because he was not 'Blood of the Dragon.' I'm sure there are more instances of this this is just off the top of my head.

Are you referring to what went down in the fighting pit? because there was no "fire ball". iirc it was a roar, Drogan's breath all up in Dany's face, no fire there, only (blistering) hot breath... also it was clearly stated when she was in the Dorthraki Sea that "her burns were healing" so clearly the pyre was a one time event and she is not fire proof/resistant... ***edited to add***

[MtnLion]

But did she not have a fire ball from Drogon burn all around her and she didn't get hurt? Also, at least in the series, she has a very high tolerance to heat (getting in the steaming hot bath) and when Viserys has molten gold poured over his head and dies is she is comforted by the fact that he did not survive this because he was not 'Blood of the Dragon.' I'm sure there are more instances of this this is just off the top of my head.

I am absolutely certain (not) that it is necessary to wear asbestos shorts to ride a dragon. :P

Reread about Daenerys' hands and how she burnt them, so similar to Jon's burning his hand. ;)

[TheTizer]

Ok, and so...i am defeated. But, gladly so!

[ELITEFORCE850]

As for Daenery's tolerance to heat with warm baths and such, in the Dunk and Egg novels, Egg seems to have a higher than normal tolerance to the Dornish Sun and warm baths per Dunk. Maybe it is some leftover magic from the Dragon riding Targs or a genetic trait, but in no means is either one immune to fire. Especially from what we have heard about the events at Summerhall. I really like this theory by the way and it may explain why we know so little about the Stark female line.

[Quiet Isle]

I'm completely on board here too! wow Love it. I feel very convinced!

Remember, the history is a brother and two sisters. i think we got em. and if sansa is instructed how to learn warging (almost there) with The Hound, then she will HOWL, and mount that dragon. and when she wargs Sandor, he will be petrified to let her finally really in, but he'll do it for her. and she's going to save him from Robert Strong. karma when she burns his brother.

[sumant30]

Remember, the history is a brother and two sisters. i think we got em. and if sansa is instructed how to learn warging (almost there) with The Hound, then she will HOWL, and mount that dragon. and when she wargs Sandor, he will be petrified to let her finally really in, but he'll do it for her. and she's going to save him from Robert Strong. karma when she burns his brother.

This is the most crackpot theory i have seen on this forum.

[all_Freys_must_die]

This is the most crackpot theory i have seen on this forum.

i agree. Its up there with Euron being the dusky woman as just ludicrous

[Lady of Dragonstone]

First post here! Wow, I really like these theories. I agree with (most everyone) that there is much and more going on behind the Starks and the Targs' relationship (besides the obvious R+L=J ;) ). When reading, I took the Greatjon's words of a "marriage" to be literal rather than a figurative description of bending the knee, because it would be awkward, to me at least, to desribe fealty as a "marriage" when in Westeros, fealty is often sought and paid for by an actual marriage. It is obvious that past Stark players [Eddard's father and brother] were important men in the time of the Mad King. and it makes since that the female members of the family would be too, as we see that women can obviously be as powerful and cunning, or perhaps more, than their male counterparts [see: Olenna, Margaery, Cersei] and from the descriptions of Lyanna and Arya, Stark women are quite strong-willed. Alysanne and Jaehaerys had a soft spot for the North, visiting and promoting the well-being of the North. As for Torrhen bending the knee, and the capabilites to warg a dragon, I am torn. In my mind, a likely scenario that I agree with would be that perhaps Aegon I believed the Starks could warg into dragons, and this affected the way he dealt with Torrhen. I say believed because I do not think that dragons can be warged. I don't have any conrete evidence for this theory, it is just a guess supported by what I have read and interpreted so far in the series -- many, many times over it is said that dragons are magic, fire made flesh, ect. If dragons can be warged, then why hasn't someone already warged a dragon in the past, when magic was much more present as a whole (as some characters say -- to paraphrase "the magic died with the dragons, boy")? And Aegon I's beliefs could have been false because not much is known about warging to people who don't -- it seems to be a mysterious, feared, and misconcepted ability in Westeros. As we see time and time again, popular belief is often wrong (dragons are dead, the Others aren't fake, children of the forest, etc).

The title of the series could just possibly mean that the dragons will finally take out the Others for once and for all. I think this may be because the Others have started growing stronger since Dany "bore" her dragons. It is referenced several times, again, that dragons enhance the power of magic altogether in the realm. However, the mooney side of me says it does reference Starks and Targs. Seeing a bit about how GRRM works, I'd say the latter option is a strong contender at this point.

I don't have my books with me, so apologies for not quoting or saying where I saw these references. Anyone have any friendly arguments about this? I would love to hear more opinions on this subject.

[The Manticore Knight]

The Others were getting stronger before the dragons were born. At the beginning of AGoT, Ned talks about going North to fight Mance Rayder, so the wildlings were already marching/preparing to march south, fleeing from the Others.

About warging, I think its more related to CotF and First Men's magic rather than Valyrian's

And I'd rather believe magic enhances dragons than the contrary. (by the way, did magic ever died? I mean, beyond the Wall it seems to be still pretty strong, the Faceless Men seems to be using it for a long time, and Bloodraven was said to be a sorcerer back at Kingsland,in the very heart of southron lands

[Mace Cooterian]

Manticor Knight...I think you have it: the Others, warging and magic

My Fair Lady..in terms of the title of the Series...A Song of Fire and Ice....I tend to think this maybe a dual definition. On one hand you have a marriage and the other hand, the ultimate battle between good and evil (a.k.a. the Other's and....well, Dragons). The marriage is a little more complicated as most posts would suggest Dany (fire) and Jon (ice); or Targarean and Stark. I don't believe that GRRM would make it that obvious or predictable..

[Lady of Dragonstone]

The Others were getting stronger before the dragons were born. At the beginning of AGoT, Ned talks about going North to fight Mance Rayder, so the wildlings were already marching/preparing to march south, fleeing from the Others.

About warging, I think its more related to CotF and First Men's magic rather than Valyrian's

And I'd rather believe magic enhances dragons than the contrary. (by the way, did magic ever died? I mean, beyond the Wall it seems to be still pretty strong, the Faceless Men seems to be using it for a long time, and Bloodraven was said to be a sorcerer back at Kingsland,in the very heart of southron lands

I don't think magic ever died. Sorry for my lack of clarification :) You are quite correct on that. I suppose I just meant... it has been growning stronger since the dragons came back. I also agree about what Ned said about Rayder, but is that why they were congregating? I thought that Rayder was trying to build up an army to get past the Wall, but please shed some light on this if I am wrong.

Manticor Knight...I think you have it: the Others, warging and magic

My Fair Lady..in terms of the title of the Series...A Song of Fire and Ice....I tend to think this maybe a dual definition. On one hand you have a marriage and the other hand, the ultimate battle between good and evil (a.k.a. the Other's and....well, Dragons). The marriage is a little more complicated as most posts would suggest Dany (fire) and Jon (ice); or Targarean and Stark. I don't believe that GRRM would make it that obvious or predictable..

I agree. I think the title of the series is the most predictable thing about it, haha. Otherwise, it's all guessing from there. :-) However, it is called Game of Thrones, and I think GRRM is mainly focusing on people in the story, their motives/true natures/self-battles and whatnot. I saw on another topic where someone else stated that they thought the important thing in the series to GRRM was mostly the actual Game, and the Others are another added element. GRRM has said this is not a predominantly sci-fi series, I believe.

[The Manticore Knight]

I don't think magic ever died. Sorry for my lack of clarification :) You are quite correct on that. I suppose I just meant... it has been growning stronger since the dragons came back.

I still think it was getting stronger before the dragons were born

I also agree about what Ned said about Rayder, but is that why they were congregating? I thought that Rayder was trying to build up an army to get past the Wall, but please shed some light on this if I am wrong.

He' trying to get past the wall exactly because of the Others attacks

[msdanya]

I think the OP is an interesting theory.

What I noticed is that the name Alysanne seems different then the rest of the Targ names (except for a couple of the great bastards and Duncan the small)

[TheCrannogDweller]

What I noticed is that the name Alysanne seems different then the rest of the Targ names (except for a couple of the great bastards and Duncan the small)

I think you're referring to the "ae" present in the names of almost all of the male Targs we know of (and some of the females, too). But even though it's rather common it's not absolute - there are Visenya and Viseris (three of them).

P.S. I actually just discovered an entire thread dedicated to the Targaryen names - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/31769-targaryen-names/ . Maybe you'll find your answers there.

[Free Northman]

A few comments:

Martin has confirmed that Dragons have more or less dog level intelligence. Meaning they are smart for animals, but nowhere near human level mental capacity. So even Hodor is much smarter than a Dragon. Hence, if humans can be warged, Dragons most likely can too.

As for the youth fashioning the weirwood arrows. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that he had Targaryen features. If I recall correctly, he was described as a dark eyed youth, which is very reminiscent of the Stark look such as displayed by Jon or Arya.

He was most likely Torhenn's bastard brother, Brandon Snow, who was intending to assassinate Aegon's dragons.

[SicBoy]

This is good, I definitely think that Torrhen made some kind of deal with the Targs before kneeling, since his brother already had plans to sneak into the Targ camp and kill the three dragons (with three weirwood arrows i believe), which seems like a pretty specific plan to kill the dragons and it may have worked (meaning Torrhen probably came out of the deal better off than the Targs in order for him to forfeit that well thought out plan)

Hey what source did you find that information in?

[MtnLion]

Hey what source did you find that information in?

The Ice and Fire Concordance preview chapter.

[wolfmaid7]

Warging into a dragon is a different thing altogether it is not warging into Hodor, it will need a very powerful warg to do that.

There was a theory on here a while back (mostly involving the semi-cataclysmic past of Hardhome) detailing that the whole reason Aegon invaded when he did was so he could win the North while they didn't have a Stark capable of skinchanging, which Torrhen Stark probably wasn't. The theory stated that Aegon was afraid of the Starks' warging powers because they could potentially warg his dragons and turn them against him. So he opted to make a pact with the Starks to bring them into his realm.

It made a lot of sense, even with a few reaches. Think about it. The Targaryens made Torrhen kneel, brought the North into the Seven Kingdoms, and then left them the hell alone. I think Aegon I was breathing a massive sigh of relief all the way home to Dragonstone.

I too believed that given a very powerful Warg,a Dragon can be subdued in that way. I have a thought though warging into a Dragon is not " riding one" so i'm thinking

[wolfmaid7]

But a major flaw in Jon becoming a rider of a dragon is that he is not 'The Blood of The Dragon' in the same way as Deny. When the wight attacks him and he is set on fire Jon burns one of his hands if I remember correctly, and it was my impression that only Targs with 'Blood of The Dragon' would be able to ride the Dragons.

Just a thought, although I always guessed he would be one of the riders, this is just speculation why he may not be

Yeah but even Dany gets burned by fire i.e her ressurrection from Drogo's fire,the pit in Meerene .