Sexuality in ASoIaF

[Accio Euron]

Also the lack of lesbians within the novel could point to the fact that women rarely had the opportunity to explore their sexuality like men did. Renly, Loras, Oberyn, etc. have their male privilege to explore how they feel towards women and men. There could be plenty of lesbians within the world itself, but since they live in the patriarch society a woman's sexual feelings should extend to her husband and having his babies. They probably would have scoffed at the idea that females can masturbate. There are even men today who believe that women can only have gratification as long as a man is involved.

As far as the Arya/Jon dynamic, it seems like its only the dream of those who ship it. It doesn't seem plausible to me. I don't know why incest bothers me so much. I shouldn't care as long as they're two consenting adults. But it does.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Leave it to me to start a topic and then get too busy to be a part of the interesting discussion. This is exactly the type of situation where I need the “like” button lol, so all of you may consider your post “liked”. :) I found the thoughts and opinions on incest and homosexuality very fluid similar to how fluid sexuality can be. I have more queries on connections with these two types of sexuality that I will address in a separate post. Have I aroused your curiosity? ;) I love the discussions on medieval perceptions too! Intriguing comments on Cersei not liking Tommen and Loras’s relationship! Did Cersei ever make comments on Renly’s sexuality?

I don't think we're going to see a "flip" so much, as we might just witness Martin continuing to delve deeper into these issues. In ASOS and AFFC we see Sansa beginning to have sexual dreams and thoughts, and it reflects her development into womanhood. Arya has been exposed to this reality already, particularly in Braavos, but she hasn't started to explore her own sexuality and desires. I think with the Stark family, Martin plays it fairly straight (excuse the pun), but doesn't shy away from showing how sex and intimacy complicates the lives of his protagonists.

I don’t know why exactly but I’m so curious how Martin will handle this because like you mentioned brashcandy I do think he will delve deeper. Look at Dany, Martin did not shy away from that. Both girls were betrothed at a young age as well; do we know at what age Cat and Ned would have allowed them to be married? Sansa and Arya are apparently old enough to be wedded and bedded now because technically they are wedded. Will they give their flowers to someone of their own choosing and the same with marriage?

I know there are those that think that Arya is either asexual or a lesbian but I don't think so.

She does show interest in males but not sexual desire.

I've mentioned how in AFFC she notes how Brea lets a boy touch her but it doesn't register to her that she might like that.

I believe it's partially because she's prepubescent and is not ready.

I agree that Arya does show interest in males without sexual desire and I agree that this is likely due to her age but I do think that will change when she flowers. (Which I think will happen soon) But Arya could still be interested in a romantic relationship and attracted to boys and still be asexual but I don’t think that is what will happen either.

Another possibility that may not be right but I'll throw out there is that perhaps given her experience she may either have a negative association/be confused/or unsure/or just doesn't know the difference b/w consensual sex and non consensual sex.

Rorge tells her that he wants to fuck her bloody and accuses Yoren of doing the same thing.

When she's in the brothels she may hear the same wording as in men telling the prostitutes that they want to fuck. She's also seen a lot of rape at this point which could have given her some trauma.

So what I'm getting at is maybe she's not sure if sex is supposed to be painful or not? Or she may not associate it with something that can be truly pleasurable or make her feel powerful.

She has sexual unawareness.

Then again hanging out in brothels in Braavos could change that but it's still not ideal since it's a business and not the same thing as a genuine romantic relationship.

When she first gets her sight back she associates the first image she sees with something sexual and gives it a positive connotation.

But she's not at the point where she thinks that she either wants a boy to touch her or that she wants to touch him. She lets Jaqen kiss her and kisses the KM but there's nothing romantic about it. She can appreciate the male physique but has not taken that step.

I agree and I think everything that Arya has been exposed to has to have had a negative and traumatic effect on her, even things sexually related affecting her developing sexuality, do you think it’s ironic that Arya could be married to a sadistic and sexually deviant monster right now after everything? I don’t even want to think about it. Same with Sansa, can you even begin to imagine if she had to marry Joffery?

.

Just a note: male masturbation is present in the books. Off the top of my head I can think of a Tyrion chapter where he's locked during his trial.

Thank you for the note Lady Lea; it was Tyrion so no wonder I blocked it out! Lol, but I will correct the OP.

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You know, I've seen some people make a case for Stannis being asexual. I don't know much about asexuality, but I think it's fairly clear that he does have a sexual relationship with Melisandre.

Stannis is probably less asexual and more just plain uncomfortable around women. It might amount to more or less the same thing if the man has other interests, but as we've seen when someone gets close he's like most people.

Asexual: Areo Hotah

ETA: unless you count whatever he does with his ax as sex *shivers*

Yes I think Areo Hotah is a good possibility for an asexual character too. Stannis could be as well, even though Castel has good points on why he probably is not, but I think the possibility with Stannis raises some interesting questions. If Stannis is would he be a good candidate for main stream exposer and awareness, if it’s done right of course, but his… almost disdain for women could be confusing? Then there is the issue of sex with Mel, and while an asexual can and do have sex sometimes, will this confuse the issue regarding educational matters or only help to elucidate that asexuality can be as complex and fluid as everything else? Also in general how difficult would it even be to introduce something like this in a medieval setting when it’s not even barley exposed today? But you can ignore all of this because it may not ever even happen so it’s unrelated unless I stick with likely potentials. ;)

[Elaena Targaryen]

I have a few more things to address that I left out of the OP for length. There are just so many things in this area that could be discussed and I like that!

Forbidden love in ASoIaF. Another taboo and I wonder if you like the way Martin portrays it? Does the forbidden aspect make the sex more passionate and tragic? Like with Jaime and Cersei or Loras and Renly? Does that only help convince them they are in love when it may not be? Like with Lysa and Petyr or Petyr and Cat? Loras imo has the most beautiful line in the story… "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." What all types of forbidden love are included and is there any missing? What about the long lost love? Like Robert and Lyanna; do you think Robert would still feel the same if he had sex with Lyanna?

Celibacy and abstinence in ASoIaF and what drives the decision. Jon Snow gets special attention not because there aren’t others who feel shame over sexuality but because he just may have been harder on himself than anyone else in the series so far. (Well Tyrion has shame in his sexuality but that does not stop him from paying for and expecting it.) I feel Jon had so much mostly self-inflicted shame that he partly used the Night’s Watch and the vows he took to help keep him in check. I also am intrigued by how his sexual relationship with Ygritte seems to have almost freed him from the shame he feels and now his celibacy could be perceived as willing instead of forced. What do you think? What has driven other characters into celibacy?

Mel is very intriguing in the men she chooses because surely there are some more willing than Stannis, Davos and Jon? Is she even interested in sex because she exudes so much sexuality and then seems to have other motives? I know Mel is the seductress or maybe succubus but could there be something more than the simplistic explanation going on here? Is there a male equivalent in the story? What others involving sexuality from folklore, legends or stereotypes is in the story and have any been flipped or challenged?

[James Arryn]

We only really hear about LF's sexuality in terms of his using it as a means to an end. Outside of that we have an unrealized crush and we/ is going on with Sansa. IOW, even within his sexuality he seems somewhat detached. Still manages to be creepy, though.

BTW, I see an assumption that sex as a bi-product of romance as the norm, and as being party to a material exchange as the exception, but I think that would be very disputed for a lot of history.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Celibacy and abstinence in ASoIaF and what drives the decision. Jon Snow gets special attention not because there aren’t others who feel shame over sexuality but because he just may have been harder on himself than anyone else in the series so far.

Sam is a variation: he's very hard on himself too, but in his case it is tied in with his self-esteem and body issues. Whereas Jon is wary of sex because he associates it with bastardry and vow-breaking, Sam is wary of sex because he can't understand why anyone would find him attractive: essentially he doesn't consider himself worthy of sex.

[Nagga's Bones]

I hope you are not implying that pedophilia is the same as homosexuality. Because they are two entirely separate sexual identities.

Thanks for clarifying this. I've seen a couple of posts like this and it disturbed me.

[James Arryn]

Thanks for clarifying this. I've seen a couple of posts like this and it disturbed me.

Even if it wasn't meant here, it's freakish how often the 2 are conflated.

[Elaena Targaryen]

We only really hear about LF's sexuality in terms of his using it as a means to an end. Outside of that we have an unrealized crush and we/ is going on with Sansa. IOW, even within his sexuality he seems somewhat detached. Still manages to be creepy, though.

I agree with all of this but I think the "unrealized crush" may be a little more, or a little less, complicated than that as well as giving us more insight into LF's sexuality. I don't think LF's obsession with Cat is romantically related I think it's a combination of sexual factors.

I feel one aspect was the "forbidden" taboo and LF wanted what he could not have which was sex with Cat. At that time in his life Lysa would have been a good consolation prize but there was no challenge / reward factor which may be related to power for LF. So could this be classified as a fetish or how he gets his rocks off? It makes sense to me that someone like him would be turned off by the woman that throws herself at him and he could confuse that as weak and pathetic so then the woman holding out is so much more appealing. I really think LF gets turned on by forbidden things within his power obsession.

Another aspect is at the time Cat herself would have been a great prize for him so she symbolizes power and if he is also aroused sexualy by this then Cat would have been a great life-long sexual partner. You know the trophy wife that makes her husand feel like the big strong powerfull man who has the world in his pocket. He probably masturbated to this thought. I'm not a man though so who knows what LF thinks or what turns him on. However I would think that someone values only power would naturally be turned on by feeling powerfull in their sexuality.

But maybe I'm just rambling and I have no idea because like you said we are not really exposed to his sexuality.

BTW, I see an assumption that sex as a bi-product of romance as the norm, and as being party to a material exchange as the exception, but I think that would be very disputed for a lot of history.

Who me? Maybe I have I am a romantic type but if you give me some examples I could explain my thought process more clearly. Sometimes trying to keep a post short can give wrong impressions, not that I ever explain myself well in the first place, lol.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Sam is a variation: he's very hard on himself too, but in his case it is tied in with his self-esteem and body issues. Whereas Jon is wary of sex because he associates it with bastardry and vow-breaking, Sam is wary of sex because he can't understand why anyone would find him attractive: essentially he doesn't consider himself worthy of sex.

Yes Sam is such a hot mess he deserves special attention too! I think I'm more worried about Sam than Jon now because Jon seems to be in a healthier place than Sam, not that Jon is issue free. They are both are grappling with sexuality issues way beyond vows. I really don't see how Sam can get past everything while trying to be celibate. The boy just needs to keep having sex with Gilly so long as we don't have to read a blow-by-blow! Or do you think soliciting prostitutes could be benificial for him?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Just a note: male masturbation is present in the books. Off the top of my head I can think of a Tyrion chapter where he's locked during his trial.

There's another one when Shae makes a reference to the Tower of the 'Hand'.

[Lady of the Leaves]

I feel one aspect was the "forbidden" taboo and LF wanted what he could not have which was sex with Cat. At that time in his life Lysa would have been a good consolation prize but there was no challenge / reward factor which may be related to power for LF. So could this be classified as a fetish or how he gets his rocks off? It makes sense to me that someone like him would be turned off by the woman that throws herself at him and he could confuse that as weak and pathetic so then the woman holding out is so much more appealing. I really think LF gets turned on by forbidden things within his power obsession.

Another aspect is at the time Cat herself would have been a great prize for him so she symbolizes power and if he is also aroused sexualy by this then Cat would have been a great life-long sexual partner. You know the trophy wife that makes her husand feel like the big strong powerfull man who has the world in his pocket. He probably masturbated to this thought. I'm not a man though so who knows what LF thinks or what turns him on. However I would think that someone values only power would naturally be turned on by feeling powerfull in their sexuality.

You're definitely on to something. I read LF as being sure of himself, he thinks he deserves whatever he thinks he can earn (which is anything he wants), including Cat. His whole life, sexually, that we've seen, has circled around his obsession with Cat. And that he can't have her causes him to lash out in strange ways (like killing Lysa before he was ready). He seems to me to be a certain kind of sadist, one that must have complete control and power over the partner of his choosing, no matter what. Anyone besides Cat would be too easy (who wouldn't want to sleep with and marry and very wealthy and influential member of court?), so he doesn't.

As to Sam, he and Jon are similar. Neither wanted to break their vow despite being attracted to their partners. They both took the vow and breaking it very seriously. I doubt they'd do it again with another girl any time soon. Meaning they also take their partner very seriously. It took a great someone to cause them to break their vows in the first place. They are not suddenly going to start digging for treasure as some of the Watch did, and weren't shy in hiding the fact. Sam and Jon chose to take that part seriously, for their own reasons, despite it being not enforced.

[James Arryn]

I agree with all of this but I think the "unrealized crush" may be a little more, or a little less, complicated than that as well as giving us more insight into LF's sexuality. I don't think LF's obsession with Cat is romantically related I think it's a combination of sexual factors.

I feel one aspect was the "forbidden" taboo and LF wanted what he could not have which was sex with Cat. At that time in his life Lysa would have been a good consolation prize but there was no challenge / reward factor which may be related to power for LF. So could this be classified as a fetish or how he gets his rocks off? It makes sense to me that someone like him would be turned off by the woman that throws herself at him and he could confuse that as weak and pathetic so then the woman holding out is so much more appealing. I really think LF gets turned on by forbidden things within his power obsession.

Another aspect is at the time Cat herself would have been a great prize for him so she symbolizes power and if he is also aroused sexualy by this then Cat would have been a great life-long sexual partner. You know the trophy wife that makes her husand feel like the big strong powerfull man who has the world in his pocket. He probably masturbated to this thought. I'm not a man though so who knows what LF thinks or what turns him on. However I would think that someone values only power would naturally be turned on by feeling powerfull in their sexuality.

But maybe I'm just rambling and I have no idea because like you said we are not really exposed to his sexuality.

I see it differently. I think the Cat/crushed/duel thing were formative for him, not the other way around. I think the very fact that he dueled at all means he was acting in a way we can't now see him acting, so I don't look for consistency in motivation either. I think he was then as close to romantic as he could be, had it killed, and has since seen emotion as a weakness to be exploited in others and protected in himself.

It's worked, kinda, so its been reinforced. I think that more easily explains things like him owning brothels...again, weakness in others, exploit...rather than just pure lust for power. I think he does lust for power too, yeah, but that's been more a symptom. I think he's pretty closed off to anything that renders him into anyone else's contol, so power is more a means to avoid that than an end in itself.

I also don't think most men masterbate to abstracts, but that's just my opinion.

Who me? Maybe I have I am a romantic type but if you give me some examples I could explain my thought process more clearly. Sometimes trying to keep a post short can give wrong impressions, not that I ever explain myself well in the first place, lol.

You among others. Not so much explicitly as the implication of deriviations from what should or would otherwise be, I think.

[Mother of Dragons]

Has anyone posted yet about the attitudes about sexuality in Westeros? Look at Dorne. It's more acceptable there. Even Nym the Sandsnake is nonchalant when she tells her Uncle Prince Doran about her threesome with the Fowler twins. Being a maiden before marriage doesn't seem to be a rule there.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I see it differently. I think the Cat/crushed/duel thing were formative for him, not the other way around. I think the very fact that he dueled at all means he was acting in a way we can't now see him acting, so I don't look for consistency in motivation either. I think he was then as close to romantic as he could be, had it killed, and has since seen emotion as a weakness to be exploited in others and protected in himself.

It's worked, kinda, so its been reinforced. I think that more easily explains things like him owning brothels...again, weakness in others, exploit...rather than just pure lust for power. I think he does lust for power too, yeah, but that's been more a symptom. I think he's pretty closed off to anything that renders him into anyone else's contol, so power is more a means to avoid that than an end in itself.

I also don't think most men masterbate to abstracts, but that's just my opinion.

You among others. Not so much explicitly as the implication of deriviations from what should or would otherwise be, I think.

I could be guilty, I see that, but since you are being so vague and since I have so much to say here I can also see that maybe I'm being to broad with the discussion. I'll pull it back some.

Since I can't, or probably should not, adress specifics I'll make a comment on your first quote anyway...

"BTW, I see an assumption that sex as a bi-product of romance as the norm, and as being party to a material exchange as the exception, but I think that would be very disputed for a lot of history."

I think we were discussing the opposite; 'cases of romance as a bi-product of sex, sexuality and sexual attraction'? As in the character you and I have discussed, Petry, do you really think his crush was based on an emotional romantic attraction to Cat? Or was it simply based on sexual attraction that let his passions get carried away? Do you really think that it was romantic that LF challanged Brandon to a duel; was he saving or rescuing Cat, did she ask for his help, or was this a perversion of his sexual fantasies?

But again maybe I'm going to far so I will tone it down. If you would like to discuss "sex and material exchange" in ASoIaF, which there are cases of, go ahead I didn't mean to put any restrictions or to commit any deviations.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I agree with all of this but I think the "unrealized crush" may be a little more, or a little less, complicated than that as well as giving us more insight into LF's sexuality. I don't think LF's obsession with Cat is romantically related I think it's a combination of sexual factors.

I feel one aspect was the "forbidden" taboo and LF wanted what he could not have which was sex with Cat. At that time in his life Lysa would have been a good consolation prize but there was no challenge / reward factor which may be related to power for LF. So could this be classified as a fetish or how he gets his rocks off? It makes sense to me that someone like him would be turned off by the woman that throws herself at him and he could confuse that as weak and pathetic so then the woman holding out is so much more appealing. I really think LF gets turned on by forbidden things within his power obsession.

Another aspect is at the time Cat herself would have been a great prize for him so she symbolizes power and if he is also aroused sexualy by this then Cat would have been a great life-long sexual partner. You know the trophy wife that makes her husand feel like the big strong powerfull man who has the world in his pocket. He probably masturbated to this thought. I'm not a man though so who knows what LF thinks or what turns him on. However I would think that someone values only power would naturally be turned on by feeling powerfull in their sexuality.

I hate Littlefinger, but definitely understand/relate to his attraction to Cat. (Although, I appreciate her beauty and find her attractive for different reasons than LF). She is incredibly beautiful (and hawt!). Her personal attributes (duty, loyalty, courage, strength, intelligence and education, warmth for Ned, love/protectiveness for her children) also make her very desirable (at least to me).

However, you're certainly correct about the reasons for LF's desire for Cat - its not physical (he had Lysa, who was similary beautiful at the time), it's the status/recognition aspect of it for LF - "I slept with/seduced Lord Hoster Tully's (Lord Paramount of the Trident) firstborn daughter, the girl I grew up with that everybody said I wasn't good enough for". Douchebag.

Yes Sam is such a hot mess he deserves special attention too! I think I'm more worried about Sam than Jon now because Jon seems to be in a healthier place than Sam, not that Jon is issue free. They are both are grappling with sexuality issues way beyond vows. I really don't see how Sam can get past everything while trying to be celibate. The boy just needs to keep having sex with Gilly so long as we don't have to read a blow-by-blow! Or do you think soliciting prostitutes could be benificial for him?

I know its not a popular/correct view, but Gilly as his girlfriend just doesn't work for me. But yes, Samwell does need to keep having sex. It will do wonders for his confidence.

[Le Cygne]

I think Gilly is good for Sam. I'm sorry she's so sad. But I think he's good for her, too.

[Lummel]

Yeah silly girl eh. Crying like that all the time when all she's done is leave her child at the Wall where it might get burnt to death by Melisandre and Stannis and is going into exile in a strange land with someone else's child. Eh, why can't she lighten up.

/sarcasm

[lilenadheas]

I hate Littlefinger, but definitely understand/relate to his attraction to Cat. (Although, I appreciate her beauty and find her attractive for different reasons than LF). She is incredibly beautiful (and hawt!). Her personal attributes (duty, loyalty, courage, strength, intelligence and education, warmth for Ned, love/protectiveness for her children) also make her very desirable (at least to me).

However, you're certainly correct about the reasons for LF's desire for Cat - its not physical (he had Lysa, who was similary beautiful at the time), it's the status/recognition aspect of it for LF - "I slept with/seduced Lord Hoster Tully's (Lord Paramount of the Trident) firstborn daughter, the girl I grew up with that everybody said I wasn't good enough for". Douchebag.

To be fair, I think he really did love her. She was very lovable, even Jaime notes that she seemed more interesting than Lysa, so obviously her personality was engaging.The currently fucked up characters like Littlefinger, Sandor and Tyrion are profoundly related to idealism gone wrong. These traumatic events in their formative years have shaped who they have become. That is not to say he isn't a horrible human being, but love is not reserved for those who deserve it. IMO anyway.

[Winter's Knight]

Has anyone posted yet about the attitudes about sexuality in Westeros? Look at Dorne. It's more acceptable there. Even Nym the Sandsnake is nonchalant when she tells her Uncle Prince Doran about her threesome with the Fowler twins. Being a maiden before marriage doesn't seem to be a rule there.

The rules are different for bastards:

"...Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother’s ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is.”

[Mother of Dragons]

The rules are different for bastards:

Except that Doran's trueborn daughter is also promiscuous. I think Dorne is more relaxed about sexual attitudes.