Sexuality in ASoIaF

[Firewolf]

In terms of the homosexuality in the series. I personally have a completely different view.

I believe GRRM is neither trying to exclusively portray homosexuality, nor heterosexuality. But referencing something more like ancient greece, the idea of a completely fluid sexuality... a time before labels? :dunno:

This is how I have always seen the sexuality of characters in the series personally. They are neither gay or straight, but human beings with who change and grow throughout the series. - Not just their personalities, and actions but also their sexual actions.

[Le Cygne]

He seems very open to me, I agree.

[Maestress Sand]

My reaction would be that GRRM tries to portray other-than heteronormative sexual behavior, but has trouble doing so effectively. For all that I love the books, I think a major failing is his ability to portray other-than heterosexual male viewpoint. I remember on the forum some time ago someone posted a quote from an GoT or CoK Sansa chapter where a prebuscent girl is supposedly incidentally thinking of how her own bosom moves as she walks. :smirk: Not so much. And I think he read an interview where someone asked him why only (hetero-male titillating) f/f homosexual encounters, and he seemed kind of surprised to realize that he hadn't done anything else. So anyways, I think he's a great writer in a myriad of ways, but no one's perfect, and this seems to be something of a blind spot of his.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

To be fair, I think he really did love her. She was very lovable, even Jaime notes that she seemed more interesting than Lysa, so obviously her personality was engaging.The currently fucked up characters like Littlefinger, Sandor and Tyrion are profoundly related to idealism gone wrong. These traumatic events in their formative years have shaped who they have become. That is not to say he isn't a horrible human being, but love is not reserved for those who deserve it. IMO anyway.

Cat was/is very lovable :P, but I still can't believe that LF ever truly loved her. You don't scheme against, betray and destroy the entire family of the woman you truly love, even if she chose another man. (I bring up Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities in comparison as an example of unrequited love). You certainly don't then try to marry/creepily groom her pubescent daughter.

It seems to me that LF's pursuit of Cat was more youthful infatuation and status-seeking, that turned into a vicious obsession when she rejected him (fairly imo, she thought of him as a little brother), not love.

[lilenadheas]

Cat was/is very lovable :P, but I still can't believe that LF ever truly loved her. You don't scheme against, betray and destroy the entire family of the woman you truly love, even if she chose another man. (I bring up Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities in comparison as an example of unrequited love). You certainly don't then try to marry/creepily groom her pubescent daughter.

It seems to me that LF's pursuit of Cat was more youthful infatuation and status-seeking, that turned into a vicious obsession when she rejected him (fairly imo, she thought of him as a little brother), not love.

I can tell we are going to get along just fine.... She is a goddess.

I don't think he loves her anymore, which is why he is able to do what he does to her family, but I truly believe he did love her when he was thirteen. His challenge to Brandon was one of the saddest and most purely idealistic/naive thing I've read in the series, and I can't see why he would have done it otherwise. I think that after such a crushing blow, his mischievous nature turned malevolent, and it twisted his mind and heart. Also, one of the themes I've noticed is that truly reprehensible characters are capable of love. Tywin loved Joanna, Robert loved Lyanna. Even Roose is rumoured to have grown fond of Fat Walda. Tyrion (depending on how you see his character) could fit into the category with both Tysha and Shae.

Aww Sydney

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I can tell we are going to get along just fine.... She is a goddess.

Uh-huh.

Side-note - which is why the casting of Michelle Fairley on the show was such a disappointment to me, (no offence to her or her fans). Book!Cat is in her mid-30s, very beautiful (e.g. "don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair", Lord William Dustin said her breasts "were enough to make him wish he had never been weaned") and has an active sex life - she is MILF-tastic. The show doesn't really convey that at all, and instead Fairley is very matronly and middle-aged motherly (instead of being a young, hot mom like Book!Cat). Meh, that's the angle D&D went for. They did portray her love and devotion to The Ned well though.

I don't think he loves her anymore, which is why he is able to do what he does to her family, but I truly believe he did love her when he was thirteen. His challenge to Brandon was one of the saddest and most purely idealistic/naive thing I've read in the series, and I can't see why he would have done it otherwise. I think that after such a crushing blow, his mischievous nature turned malevolent, and it twisted his mind and heart. Also, one of the themes I've noticed is that truly reprehensible characters are capable of love. Tywin loved Joanna, Robert loved Lyanna. Even Roose is rumoured to have grown fond of Fat Walda. Tyrion (depending on how you see his character) could fit into the category with both Tysha and Shae.

Aww Sydney

LF's challenging Brandon Stark, Alpha Wolf of the North, to a duel was definitely ridiculous, naive, sad, idealistic and deluded, (but in character for a foolish teenager). Especially because Cat had already made it clear that she didn't desire him romantically/sexually, so if by some miracle he actually won the duel, he wouldn't get her anyway.

Did teenage LF actually have any idea what love is? Not many really know anything about love at that age. It just seems more like infatuation and an ego-stroke to me (especially considering his true nature). And I think "his mischievous nature turning malevolent, twisting his mind and heart" was more due to the damage his ego took in that "crushing blow", since Cat had already made it perfectly clear that she didn't want him beforehand, and thus his defeat in the duel wasn't the 'final nail' in his hopes - her refusing to wear his favours was.

Props for Carton - "I would embrace any sacrifice for you (Lucie) and for those dear to you. Will you hold me in your mind as being ardent and sincere in this one thing? Think now and then that there is a man who would give his life to keep a life you love beside you?"

[straits]

I can tell we are going to get along just fine.... She is a goddess.

I don't think he loves her anymore, which is why he is able to do what he does to her family, but I truly believe he did love her when he was thirteen. His challenge to Brandon was one of the saddest and most purely idealistic/naive thing I've read in the series, and I can't see why he would have done it otherwise. I think that after such a crushing blow, his mischievous nature turned malevolent, and it twisted his mind and heart. Also, one of the themes I've noticed is that truly reprehensible characters are capable of love. Tywin loved Joanna, Robert loved Lyanna. Even Roose is rumoured to have grown fond of Fat Walda. Tyrion (depending on how you see his character) could fit into the category with both Tysha and Shae.

Aww Sydney

I think a lot of people would have done the same. Tell a 13 year old they're idealistic. If he did not challenge Brandon, he would have regretted not doing so. I don't think that the altercation itself, or LF's willingness to get into it has much to do with LF's current nature. Brandon happened to be a buttmuncher we (spoilers?) learn in aDwD, so nothing involving him would have been healthy anyways.

Littlefinger's ambition stems from his family's background, I'd say. As does a lot of his dislike of the nobles. And to be honest, I can't say I disagree with some of his sentiments.

[lilenadheas]

Uh-huh.

Side-note - which is why the casting of Michelle Fairley on the show was such a disappointment to me, (no offence to her or her fans). Book!Cat is in her mid-30s, very beautiful (e.g. "don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair", Lord William Dustin said her breasts "were enough to make him wish he had never been weaned") and has an active sex life - she is MILF-tastic. The show doesn't really convey that at all, and instead Fairley is very matronly and middle-aged motherly (instead of being a young, hot mom like Book!Cat). Meh, that's the angle D&D went for. They did portray her love and devotion to the Ned well though.

I love her now, her acting is phenomenal, so I don't mind the angle they took. It's weird because they seem to age her up in the show, outside of it, Michelle Fairley is quite maturely beautiful. but yeah, Cat is hella hot in my head. Like, unbelievable.

LF's challenging Brandon Stark, Alpha Wolf of the North, to a duel (in character for a foolish teenager) was definitely ridiculous, naive, sad, idealistic and deluded. Especially because Cat had already made it clear that she didn't desire him romantically/sexually, so if by some miracle he actually won the duel, he wouldn't get her anyway.

Did teenage LF actually have any idea what love is? Not many really know anything about love at that age. It just seems more like infatuation and an ego-stroke to me (especially considering his true nature). And I think "his mischievous nature turning malevolent, twisting his mind and heart" was more due to the damage his ego took in that "crushing blow", since Cat had already made it perfectly clear that she didn't want him beforehand, and thus his defeat in the duel wasn't the 'final nail' in his hopes - her refusing to wear his favours was.

Props for Carton - "I would embrace any sacrifice for you (Lucie) and for those dear to you. Will you hold me in your mind as being ardent and sincere in this one thing? Think now and then that there is a man who would give his life to keep a life you love beside you?"

Well, I think he does actually believe he slept with her when he slept with Lysa the first time, so in my reading, he does have reason to believe that Cat has a romantic interest in him, but bound as she is by the words of her House, will never openly betray her father or her oath to marry Brandon. In a way, this could have been LF's way of saving her from her marriage. Again, epic proportions of delusion here, but I do think it is possible. Of course, if you believe he was lying, then my version doesn't make sense. It's all about interpretation.

I have difficulty with the ages, because I don't think kids are capable of real romantic love at thirteen, but to deny it in universe is to say that Dany didn't love Drogo, or Tyrtion didn't love Tysha. So it is a bit tricky.

I do think his ego was greatly bruised by it, and that he already had a predisposition to manipulation and deception. In other words, he was always capable of becoming the man we are introduced to, but that the whole Cat fiasco, had it gone differently, could have radically altered his development as a character.

Carton, Carton knew what love was. God damn.

ETA: I hope I'm not coming off like I'm whitewashing Littlefinger. He is not a good man by any means, but I think his character is very interesting with many hidden layers.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

but yeah, Cat is hella hot in my head. Like, unbelievable.

:agree:

Well, I think he does actually believe he slept with her when he slept with Lysa the first time, so in my reading, he does have reason to believe that Cat has a romantic interest in him, but bound as she is by the words of her House, will never openly betray her father or her oath to marry Brandon. In a way, this could have been LF's way of saving her from her marriage. Again, epic proportions of delusion here, but I do think it is possible. Of course, if you believe he was lying, then my version doesn't make sense. It's all about interpretation.

Yeah, I actually think he's lying, (or definitely knows the truth, but is deeply deluding himself).

ETA: I hope I'm not coming off like I'm whitewashing Littlefinger. He is not a good man by any means, but I think his character is very interesting with many hidden layers.

Agree, he's a real love to hate (and read about) kinda guy for me.

[Headless Jeyne]

I love her now, her acting is phenomenal, so I don't mind the angle they took. It's weird because they seem to age her up in the show, outside of it, Michelle Fairley is quite maturely beautiful. but yeah, Cat is hella hot in my head. Like, unbelievable.

Well, I think he does actually believe he slept with her when he slept with Lysa the first time, so in my reading, he does have reason to believe that Cat has a romantic interest in him, but bound as she is by the words of her House, will never openly betray her father or her oath to marry Brandon. In a way, this could have been LF's way of saving her from her marriage. Again, epic proportions of delusion here, but I do think it is possible. Of course, if you believe he was lying, then my version doesn't make sense. It's all about interpretation.

I have difficulty with the ages, because I don't think kids are capable of real romantic love at thirteen, but to deny it in universe is to say that Dany didn't love Drogo, or Tyrtion didn't love Tysha. So it is a bit tricky.

I do think his ego was greatly bruised by it, and that he already had a predisposition to manipulation and deception. In other words, he was always capable of becoming the man we are introduced to, but that the whole Cat fiasco, had it gone differently, could have radically altered his development as a character.

Carton, Carton knew what love was. God damn.

ETA: I hope I'm not coming off like I'm whitewashing Littlefinger. He is not a good man by any means, but I think his character is very interesting with many hidden layers.

I agree with yours, and James Arryn's interpretation of Littlefinger, that he really did have romantic feelings originally for Cat. As you say, it's hard to know because he is such a bullshitter, but it seems like such a defining, important event for Liitlefinger, such a life long obsession, that I believe deep emotion must have been part of it for him. Unlike Ramsay and Joffrey (the two only really pure evil characters in the series), Littlefinger is not a sociopath. Aside from them, Martin paints his characters in varying shades of grey, some are just greyer then most.

Someone posted that if you truly loved someone you wouldn't set out to destroy their family, even if you were spurned. Yes, you wouldn't, and I wouldn't (I like to think so anyway!), but a certain people might. You have to remember Littlefinger already feels like he is perceived as "less" because of being from a poor and unimportant family, and he is obviously someone who aspires to more and feels he is deserving of more. He probably senses he is more intelligent then most of the people around him, yet they are of a higher station simply because they were born into it, and have the power, wealth privilege etc that he cannot. The fact that he can't have Cat would just serve to reinforce the unfairness of it in his mind, and make him bitter and vengeful.

Anyway...what I'm trying to say is love can turn to hate. It happens.

[Castel]

Unlike Ramsay and Joffrey (the two only really pure evil characters in the series), Littlefinger is not a sociopath. Aside from them, Martin paints his characters in varying shades of grey, some are just greyer then most.

I disagree, I think he's a sociopath in every way that counts. He might have loved Cat once, but now, I don't know if he loves her as a person or as the thing he never had, that sign that he was still beneath everyone else. I don't think we've ever seen him show any actual empathy (emotional not cognitive) for anyone except Sansa, his creepy Cat surrogate.

Grey also implies something that LF is not, he's a murderer that has no problem creating and maintaining a state of unrest that is resulting in the deaths of a huge number of people. At best, I can say that he's a sociopath in the way that Tywin is a sociopath, someone that basically takes the violent mentality of their society and takes it to it's extreme conclusion,which is: Fuck everybody and their rules as long as I win. You would need some pretty advanced scientific equipment to distinguish LF's grey from black. Him having a somewhat tragic backstory doesn't change the fact that he's a bad person imo.

I love her now, her acting is phenomenal, so I don't mind the angle they took. It's weird because they seem to age her up in the show, outside of it, Michelle Fairley is quite maturely beautiful. but yeah, Cat is hella hot in my head. Like, unbelievable.

Michelle Fairley has become Cat in my head, and I can't think of someone more beautiful playing her. She just has this...poise? I can't quite put my finger on it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Michelle Fairley has become Cat in my head, and I can't think of someone more beautiful playing her. She just has this...poise? I can't quite put my finger on it.

Agreed. In fact, i find Show!Cat to be quite lovely.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

Someone posted that if you truly loved someone you wouldn't set out to destroy their family, even if you were spurned. Yes, you wouldn't, and I wouldn't (I like to think so anyway!), but a certain people might. You have to remember Littlefinger already feels like he is perceived as "less" because of being from a poor and unimportant family, and he is obviously someone who aspires to more and feels he is deserving of more. He probably senses he is more intelligent then most of the people around him, yet they are of a higher station simply because they were born into it, and have the power, wealth privilege etc that he cannot. The fact that he can't have Cat would just serve to reinforce the unfairness of it in his mind, and make him bitter and vengeful.

Anyway...what I'm trying to say is love can turn to hate. It happens.

Is this love to begin with though? Isn't it instead a desire for Cat as a status symbol, and a way to show all those who looked down on the lowborn LF that he can seduce the firstborn daughter of House Tully? It seems less about loving Cat, and more about LF's ambition.

I think to LF, Cat has always been (quoted upthread) "the thing he never had, that sign that he was still beneath everyone else", instead of a woman he genuinely loved for herself.

Also, my argument was that if you truly love someone you wouldn't set out to destroy their family, even if you were spurned. If certain people do respond like that to rejection, I'd argue it wasn't truly love in the first place. Selflessness is a big part of love, and that means you would want to see the person you love happy, even if its with someone else. You wouldn't try to destroy their happiness out of spite if you loved them.

[Firewolf]

My reaction would be that GRRM tries to portray other-than heteronormative sexual behavior, but has trouble doing so effectively. For all that I love the books, I think a major failing is his ability to portray other-than heterosexual male viewpoint. I remember on the forum some time ago someone posted a quote from an GoT or CoK Sansa chapter where a prebuscent girl is supposedly incidentally thinking of how her own bosom moves as she walks. :smirk: Not so much. And I think he read an interview where someone asked him why only (hetero-male titillating) f/f homosexual encounters, and he seemed kind of surprised to realize that he hadn't done anything else. So anyways, I think he's a great writer in a myriad of ways, but no one's perfect, and this seems to be something of a blind spot of his.

I would agree with this too, also a lot of the language he uses in reguards to sex is the same for each person, and is very masculine. I do think he struggles a little to write sex from a submissive POV.

For example when he writes Asha (very domineering character) it works, but Sansa like your example, not so much. He struggled to "be the woman" (from a hetero normative typical viewpoint) in sex scenes in my opinion.

[lilenadheas]

Agreed. In fact, i find Show!Cat to be quite lovely.

If I look half as good as her in my forties I will sacrifice my firstborn in thanks to the gods. She is beautiful.

[Sneak]

Well, I think he does actually believe he slept with her when he slept with Lysa the first time, so in my reading, he does have reason to believe that Cat has a romantic interest in him, but bound as she is by the words of her House, will never openly betray her father or her oath to marry Brandon. In a way, this could have been LF's way of saving her from her marriage. Again, epic proportions of delusion here, but I do think it is possible. Of course, if you believe he was lying, then my version doesn't make sense. It's all about interpretation.

I do think his ego was greatly bruised by it, and that he already had a predisposition to manipulation and deception. In other words, he was always capable of becoming the man we are introduced to, but that the whole Cat fiasco, had it gone differently, could have radically altered his development as a character.

ETA: I hope I'm not coming off like I'm whitewashing Littlefinger. He is not a good man by any means, but I think his character is very interesting with many hidden layers.

I agree with this.

Yeah, I actually think he's lying, (or definitely knows the truth, but is deeply deluding himself).

I posted this in another thread:

He thinks he took Cat's virginity because he thinks he slept with her when he was drunk, but it was actually Lysa, (this is when Lysa gets pregnant I believe). This then leads him to fight Brandon for Cat's hand; he thinks she feels the same way. Brandon wins and LF is injured. Lysa personally sees to his recovery, and they sleep together. LF now thinks he took both Cat's and Lysa's virginity.

That's how I think it went anyway.

I do think he actually believes it was Cat he slept with.

WRT the incest, I agree with most people. Jaime/Cersei was weird at first because of our incest taboo, but I became desensitised to it as the story progressed. I viewed it as normal for the Targs because they are the Targs, and I really dislike the Jon/Sansa or Arya pairings mainly because they grew up together and had a good, healthy sibling relationship. They don't view eachother in a sexual way at all, so I don't even know where the pairing comes from.

[Nausicaä]

In terms of the homosexuality in the series. I personally have a completely different view.

I believe GRRM is neither trying to exclusively portray homosexuality, nor heterosexuality. But referencing something more like ancient greece, the idea of a completely fluid sexuality... a time before labels? :dunno:

This is how I have always seen the sexuality of characters in the series personally. They are neither gay or straight, but human beings with who change and grow throughout the series. - Not just their personalities, and actions but also their sexual actions.

I don't believe GRRM is trying to exclusively portray heterosexuality, but he's failing at portraying fluid sexuality, if that was his attempt. None of the same-sex relationships had the same exposure as the heterosexual ones and the same-sex scenes always seemed to be pretty heteronormative to me. Neither Dany nor Cersei have fluid sexuality, because neither one of them is attracted to anyone other than men and when they have same-sex scenes, it's pretty obvious that nothing changes for them, not even just for that single moment. Dany imagines being with a man when Irri helps her masturbate. IIRC, she lets Irri touch her breasts and between the legs, but it's over pretty quickly (Irri oh-so-convieniently falls asleep the moment Dany climaxes) and she never touches Irri herself to return the favor nor is faced with a choice whether she should do it or not. She never explores another woman's body and tries to pleasure her, it's never even on her mind when she has a same-sex scene - it serves to let her fantasy of being with a male lover remain intact. And obviously, there's no romantic connection either. With Cersei, it is the opposite. She's trying to imagine herself as a man, so she actively explores Taena's body. She thinks she's pleasuring her, but she's focused mainly on trying to see if sex with Taena the way Robert did it would be enjoyable to her. However, she stops Taena from touching her, because that would ruin her fantasy of not being a woman, having sex with another woman. No emotional connection either.

As a bisexual girl those scenes always made me pretty sad. We have only two prominent same-sex scenes, but they are both about women fantasizing about hetero sex while with another woman, with no mutual attraction or pleasure or even attempts at mutual pleasure or even passing thoughts about accepting the reality of the situation in sight. I think those scenes served to drive home that Dany and Cersei are pretty set in their heterosexuality, even if that wasn't their main purpose.

If Dany did feel good being with Irri, felt attracted to her and treated their sexual encounter for what it was, sex between two women, but then went back to liking mainly or only men, that may have been an example of fluidity of sexuality, but that didn't happen.

[Greywater Reed]

Agree. Fat Pink Mast was totally unnecessary (and imo kind of an unrealistic cliche, I mean c'mon, 'fat nerd loses virginity to hot girl'). Is a girl like Gilly (especially considering the molestation she suffered) really going to relentlessly, forcefully pursue sex with ol' fat, nervous Samwell?

Is Gilly ever stated to be particularly attractive?

Fat people and unattractive people do have sex lives too, it's not *that* surprising.

Is Satin ever stated as being gay either? He's an ex-whore, sure, but there are straight male whores too.

[Nausicaä]

Is Gilly ever stated to be particularly attractive?

She's said to be pretty and slim with big brown eyes of a doe. I would say that yes, she is.

I didn't mind the FPM scene all that much, but I think Red Viper has a point. Gilly was abused and molested, yet she's pursuing sex with Sam rather forcefully, just because he was nice to her.

[Sneak]

Is Gilly ever stated to be particularly attractive?

Fat people and unattractive people do have sex lives too, it's not *that* surprising.

Is Satin ever stated as being gay either? He's an ex-whore, sure, but there are straight male whores too.

I read Sam's sex scene as a way for him not to be a virgin anymore. To me it had nothing to do with his self-esteem. After he didn't seem more confident to me, but I haven't read AFFC in a couple of months so I may be forgetting something.