Sexuality in ASoIaF

[Associate Maester]

Oh great topic! One that I talked to Dr. Pepper about and had yet to find a time to open a thread about this very subject. Great stuff here so far. I'll definitely lend my two dragons when I'm coherent.

[Lady of the Leaves]

I'm going to say something that will get a reaction, but I'm wondering if the people bothered by the amount or graphic nature of the sex scenes are completely comfortable with sex in general? I don't mean comfortable as in, sex, woo hoo! But really and truly comfortable with the concept and not blinded by the titillation of it anymore. Crap, this is coming out so badly, but look - I have been sexually active for a long time now and sex is just another part of my life. It's not 'special'. (again, this is coming out badly - yes, it's super fun and a prefered way to spend the evening, but it's just something you do because it's a normal part of adult life) is this making any sense or am I just going off on a tangent that is completely off base?

I totally get where you're coming from and I agree 100%. All the sex in this world is completely believable. It happens, and because it happens, we get to see (some) of it. I don't think any of it is frivolous, and I have a hard time imagining some scenes going the same way without the sex in them.

Does Gilly think about how she was molested? It's been a while since I read her chapters but her concerns were less with herself and more with her child. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't react like we'd expect.

We do not see her thinking or remarking upon her experience. Honestly, I'd be surprised if she considered herself to be a victim. She was born into a strange home, but it was still home. She grew up knowing she'd become her father's wife, just as her mother did. I'm not going so far as to say she enjoyed her time there, but she still was alive in a relatively stable environment. Plus, she ended up escaping. Who knows what happened to her mothers/sisters after the Nights Watch fiasco. If anything, she probably considers herself lucky to not have her life be torn out from under her. She fled to safety before that could happen. And through all that, she saved her son.

[Reader of All Things Good]

I found Dany's encounter with Irri to be fairly unnecessary. Cersei's sexual exploration with Taena was an exercise of power. Dany and Irri read more like masturbatory material for GRRM. I feel like two straight girls having sex plays too much into the male fantasy. I've discussed this with some of my male friends before. According to them, two lesbians is not nearly as appealing as two straight women just fooling around. Of course it is pretty much a given that that scene will make it onto the show, but with Missandai rather than Irri.

I've discussed this before, but I think it is worth mentioning again: Illyrio's gratuitous reaction to Dany's beauty. I don't have the books with me right now so I apologize for not having a direct quote, but it was something like he had to have sex with a bed slave because of his overwhelming attraction to Dany. I'm not sure if it is my own hangup on Dany's age, but I found that to be an unnecessary detail.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I found Dany's encounter with Irri to be fairly unnecessary. Cersei's sexual exploration with Taena was an exercise of power. Dany and Irri read more like masturbatory material for GRRM. I feel like two straight girls having sex plays too much into the male fantasy. I've discussed this with some of my male friends before. According to them, two lesbians is not nearly as appealing as two straight women just fooling around. Of course it is pretty much a given that that scene will make it onto the show, but with Missandai rather than Irri.

I've discussed this before, but I think it is worth mentioning again: Illyrio's gratuitous reaction to Dany's beauty. I don't have the books with me right now so I apologize for not having a direct quote, but it was something like he had to have sex with a bed slave because of his overwhelming attraction to Dany. I'm not sure if it is my own hangup on Dany's age, but I found that to be an unnecessary detail.

They sort of had it in season 1 with her "training" to please KD.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Roose Bolton's pet leeches are always described as "fat" and "pink."

I am not!

[Headless Jeyne]

I agree Theon's scene was constructive. It's purpose is to show you he's entitled and kind of a dick. It foreshadows that whole weird scene with him and Asha (speaking of incesty stuff) where she tells him she wanted to see what kind of man he became...

So many other questions! Lesbians. I think Taena may be one, or at least bisexual. It's hard to say because we don't get to see her point of view.

Incest. I agree with the poster that said Jaime/Cersei is squicky at first, then you gradually get used to it. Also, and I know this is gonna sound weird, but the idea of twincest has never been quite as squicky to me as normal sibling incest. I think of twins as often sort of being extremely close and living together in their own little world, much more similar and much more equal then regular brothers and sisters. You don't have the inherent power imbalance and molesty aspect of twincest as with regular incest where one individual is older, and can take advantage of the younger.

And the Dany/Jon thing is less icky then Arya/Jon because they never met and didn't grow up together. Biologically we are hard wired NOT to be attracted to people we grow up living in the same house as. It is why the idea of having sex with your adopted brother is still weird and gross, even tho you aren't actually related.

[Zupoleon]

I think the main reason why so many people are "ok" with Jaime & Cersei's incest is that Martin sets a precedence of tolerance with the Targs. Westeros has dealt with it for hundreds of years, so it's not like it comes out of left field (within Martin's world)...

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Incest does happen in the real world though, & it's possible that a long time apart could break down the dynamics between Jon & Arya or Jon & Sansa for that matter (since they weren't all that close to begin with). Jon + Dany= Genetic Sexual Attraction? Maybe.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm still waiting for Brienne / Petyr to unite and form Voltron...err... the beast with two backs. :wub: :drool: :spank:

Kind of like Thandi Palane and Victor Cachat in the Honorverse.... anyone?

[butterbumps!]

I'm still waiting for Brienne / Petyr to unite and form Voltron...err... the beast with two backs. :wub: :drool: :spank:

Kind of like Thandi Palane and Victor Cachat in the Honorverse.... anyone?

Just when my blood pressure's gone back to normal you show up. Is there a reason you're pitching LF and Brienne, of all people?

Btw, your new avatar looks like Harry Potter.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They're perfect for one another. Two misfits cast out by their society refusing the roles that society would impose upon them.

Plus he can ride around in a basket on her back.

Just when my blood pressure's gone back to normal you show up. Is there a reason you're pitching LF and Brienne, of all people?

Btw, your new avatar looks like Harry Potter.

Well Petyr is a boy wizard.

[butterbumps!]

They're perfect for one another. Two misfits cast out by their society refusing the roles that society would impose upon them.

Plus he can ride around in a basket on her back.

Yes, well as wonderfully reasoned as this theory is, I think you meant to post that here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75042-dumbest-theories-you-have-heard-of-about-asoiaf/

welcome back, little buddy.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes, well as wonderfully reasoned as this theory is, I think you meant to post that here: http://asoiaf.wester...f-about-asoiaf/

welcome back, little buddy.

That's not a theory. Its just my heart's deepest desire. along with Petyr Sea Lord of Braavos, Lord Paramount of the Vale and Riverlands, Hand of King Euron, first of his name.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've discussed this before, but I think it is worth mentioning again: Illyrio's gratuitous reaction to Dany's beauty. I don't have the books with me right now so I apologize for not having a direct quote, but it was something like he had to have sex with a bed slave because of his overwhelming attraction to Dany. I'm not sure if it is my own hangup on Dany's age, but I found that to be an unnecessary detail.

I found it instructive when it comes to Illyrio's character. He may have barred the door so Viserys couldn't rape Dany, but he's not an amazing person either, and he admits that he thought Dany would die in the Dothraki Sea. Illyrio is in it for Illyrio (or maybe for fake!Aegon if he is indeed Illyrio's son).

I think the main reason why so many people are "ok" with Jaime & Cersei's incest is that Martin sets a precedence of tolerance with the Targs. Westeros has dealt with it for hundreds of years, so it's not like it comes out of left field (within Martin's world)...

No, I think the main reason you gradually come to accept it is because Cersei hated being married to Robert and she had to endure his marital rape. While she states clearly after trying to be wily and using the Kettleblacks (which backfires, too) that it's only ever been good with Jaime. So the only man she ever enjoyed having sex with was Jaime, nobody else, despite her antics.

[Lummel]

...Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?...

I think this is simply because we come across Jaime and Cersei as a fact. It exists in the book. We are introduced to it very quickly and it is established as being natural for them.

With Jon and Arya the opposite situation applies. The notion of them as a traditional brother and sister pair is firmly established in our minds and our own incest taboos latch on to that.

No matter how unpleasant, sexual encounters are a form of characterization. The way the characters embrace their situation or merely feign interest effects how they change in terms of maturity...I think Sam and Gilly was almost unnecessary, only because I thought of it like "The lame guy gets the wild girl."...

I thought it was nicely tragic. The only place they can come together is at sea because the 'trees aren't watching' so it's a place where Sam can escape his vows. We get a sense of how negative and far reaching Sam's own negative body image goes. It's possibly the one moment of freedom for the both of them with Sam due to go into service at the Citadel and Gilly at Horn Hill.

Anyhow Gilly is remarkably unwild for a wildling don't you think ;)

[ARYa_Nym]

Bran has a cute crush on Meera. I don't know much about how it is for paraplegics so I won't touch on that.

I know there are those that think that Arya is either asexual or a lesbian but I don't think so.

She does show interest in males but not sexual desire.

I've mentioned how in AFFC she notes how Brea lets a boy touch her but it doesn't register to her that she might like that.

I know that Brusco’s daughter Brea meets a boy on the roof when her father is asleep, she thought. Brea lets him touch her, Talea says, even though he’s just a roof rat and all the roof rats are supposed to be thieves.

I believe it's partially because she's prepubescent and is not ready.

Another possibility that may not be right but I'll throw out there is that perhaps given her experience she may either have a negative association/be confused/or unsure/or just doesn't know the difference b/w consensual sex and non consensual sex.

Rorge tells her that he wants to fuck her bloody and accuses Yoren of doing the same thing.

"I saved you." ..."Owe you another fucking for that, seems like. Did Yoren pump your cunny, or did he like that tight little ass better?"

When she's in the brothels she may hear the same wording as in men telling the prostitutes that they want to fuck. She's also seen a lot of rape at this point which could have given her some trauma.

So what I'm getting at is maybe she's not sure if sex is supposed to be painful or not? Or she may not associate it with something that can be truly pleasurable or make her feel powerful.

She has sexual unawareness.

Then again hanging out in brothels in Braavos could change that but it's still not ideal since it's a business and not the same thing as a genuine romantic relationship.

When she first gets her sight back she associates the first image she sees with something sexual and gives it a positive connotation.

“And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful.”

But she's not at the point where she thinks that she either wants a boy to touch her or that she wants to touch him. She lets Jaqen kiss her and kisses the KM but there's nothing romantic about it. She can appreciate the male physique but has not taken that step.

EDIT: I forgot to touch on the incest. Jon/Dany are strangers. They are also adults. I don't like the whole grew up together and all of a sudden started to see the girl in a sexual light. The guy looks like a creeper. In the books we know that perception is relevant. Theon doesn't want Asha when he finds out that she's his sister. Victarion is initially turned on but remembers Asha as a child and can't do it.

GRRM was asked a question once about Jon/Arya that I think was just beating around the bush. I think you're free to ship but I don't ship him with his siblings.

Granny Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other? George_RR_Martin "Say something to the reader?" No, I'm just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Also, there's no 5 year gap so they weren't even away from each other that long. It's like your sibling going to boarding school or college and coming back then you all of a sudden want to fuck them. Just no.

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

. Something else I’ve noticed on the board is a general acceptance regarding incest with Jaime and Cersei, or Jon and Dany and maybe even the Targaryens, but if a poster ships Jon and Arya the consensus seems negative and I wonder why?

My thoughts on this are that it's worse for people who're brought up as brother and sister (but maybe who're technically aren't) to have sex than two people are technically b/s but who never really grew up with that dynamic.

The Targs always did this so brothers and sisters would presumably grow up knowing this might happen and probabaly never really had the brother/sister relationship that is usual. Jamie and Cersie are a weird case. They often think/talk about being essentially two sides of the same coin. The same gender aspects of one person. We know that's not really true now but it could have been, or at least they could have thought this way. Jon and Arya seem to have a very normal, very loving, big brother/little sister relationship so for that to turn sexual would be very, very weird for most people I think.

[fiekie]

Cersei talks about getting power through her sexuality but in the end the scenes where she sleeps with that Kettleblack guy are degrading and actually show that she had no control over the situation.

I think women (and Cercei especially) uses the promise of sex as a weapon, not the act itself. It's a bargaining chip. That's what Cercei means by it being the most powerful weapon that a woman has (or that's how I interpreted it). In a male/female sexual encounter the female is always more vulnerable (unless she has help or drugs him or something). But if you know a guy has the hots for you the promise of sex, and then the promise of more sex, can be used effectively as a form of manipulation.

As for the incest... The whole J/C relationship was a bit weird from the start. They started to sexually experiment together even before they had true sexual awareness! I think if Joanna lived she would have stopped it from happening at all. And it's also kind of sad. Jaime is literally the only person that Cercei truly loves, and her "love" is based on a projected form of narcissism and her weird desire to be a targ. I think she had a big-time crush on Rheagar and she sorda replaced him with Jaime in her mind. Plus she wanted to be a targ for some strange reason. She seemed to romantacize them; or maybe that was just her ambition talking? I dunno. So she definitely had no moral qualms about the relationship. Her "love" for her children is even more narcissistic. She loves them because they are an "extension of herself", and the characteristics that she appreciates are those she values. She thinks Joff is the strongest and the better ruler, because he was cruel and violent and for Cercei, cruelty and violence is about the only form of strength that she understands.

Jaime seemed to genuinely love Cercei. He was totally devoted to her and thus blind to her faults. Plus I think he blamed her mistakes on her position (being the cruelly trapped maiden, forced to live with the evil Robert who spent his days mocking their marriage and abusing her...). When it became clear that Cercei is a <inser some curse/descriptively slanderous remark>, he truly mourned their lost love and basically "broke up" with her.

As for incest amongst the other characters... they all think it's wrong and gross. I just don't buy J/A all-of-a-sudden being OK with it. J/D would be slightly better since they didn't grow up together. But personality-wise I cannot think of a worse pairing.

Except maybe for Brienne/Cercei.

As for a lesbian relationship... At this point I don't think GRRM could convincingly portray a lesbian relationship with any of the existing female characters.

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

In a male/female sexual encounter the female is always more vulnerable (unless she has help or drugs him or something).

Just you wait til Brienne and Jamie get together.

As for a lesbian relationship... At this point I don't think GRRM could convincingly portray a lesbian relationship with any of the existing female characters.

I hadn't really thought about the lack of actual lesbian characters before. It could be that GRRM hasn't considered it/doesn't want to write them in/doesn't think it makes sense for any of the characters. It could also be that female homosexuality was still far more taboo in the not too distant past than male homosexuality.

Whilst male homosexuality obviously wan't openly accepted in medieval times, I think it was, tacitly, by a lot of people. Men have sexual appetites and if some men want that, that's up to them, to a degree. Although possibly gay love was far more taboo than gay sex.

I remember watching a program a while ago saying that even in Victorian times when male homosexuality was pretty much accepted, behind closed doors, by large sections of society, lesbianism was till very much taboo and not accepted. This is probably because these societies were still deeply misogynistic and woman's desires (especially sexually) were at best ignored and at worst, actively oppressed. It could be that some female characters are gay but have just ignored or tries to get rid of these thoughts and urges.

There are still fewer female characters than male so it probably doesn't stand to reason that we should expect to see as many lesbain characters as gay characters.

[The Monkey]

I think it's interesting that homosexuality doesn't seemed to be looked down upon nearly as much in Westeros as it was in medieval Europe. It's seems almost public knowledge that Renly was a homosexual, but the only thing thing people did with that knowledge was to throw a few snide remarks. If he was living in a homophobic society, his homosexuality would have been a great argument against him being King in ACoK, but no one ever used it, not even his biggest detractors.