Why didn't Selmy challenge Jamie?

[Mikkel]

Ser Grandpa is a man whose whole life has been about serving the king. His Moralistic view on life is colored by the service he has been providing for almost his entire life. Selmy is a soldier nothing more nothing less. His whole life is the domain of the sword and without someone to swear his sword to he is lost.

True his dismissal at the hands of Joffery and Cersie causes him to open his eyes and question what does blind loyalty Get when those you serve are not worthy of your loyalty.

Emphasis mine, but I have a feeling this might be important, if it turns out that Dany actually is or becomes insane.

[Fragile Bird]

I think you need to look at the role a member of the Kingsguard plays. They are not there to think (or at least, not to think independently) they are there to protect the king. Selmy did his duty in battle and was severly wounded. The new king came along and continued Selmy's role in the KG. Selmy accepted and continued in exactly the same role, protecting the king. His was not to question the validity of the new king, but to protect him. Killing Jaime would be outside his role, counter-productive, since it would reduce the number of KG members, and violate his oath, since Jaime represented no threat to the king.

Jaime stands out in the KG as the odd man out. He did think outside of the box, and decided he couldn't stomach the thought of King's Landing being burned down and all it's citizens burnt to a crisp. You can quibble with his decision (ie why not just capture Aerys and let Robert kill him) but even there he was politically astute even if he didn't mean to be. By killing Aerys and sparing Robert the task, the blood and the blame splashed on him - he thought glory and praise would wash over him, not disgust.

The other members of the KG who died at the ToJ were purest, obviously, in their roles as KG. But they had the advantage of believing, if you agree with R+L=J, they were protecting the king. Jaime, on the other hand could figure out that if Robert's forces were inside the walls of KL, Rhaegar must have lost (and therefore been killed) at the Trident. And while the KG at the ToJ might have said they would have killed Jaime, a far more interesting question is what would have happened if the roles were reversed? If Dayne and crowd were guarding Aerys and saw the king's intention to burn down KL, would they too have slain Aerys? And if Jaime were at the ToJ, how would a pragmatic teenager's conversation gone with Ned Stark? Ned despised Jaime for killing Aerys, but if Jaime had been at the ToJ, that feeling would not exist between the two men.

[Melonica Stormborn]

"I was only following orders"

scary.

It is scary. I think one of the reasons Ser Barristan looked good despite not being so white after all is because he really didn't have to own up to anything after the rebellion, unlike, say, Jaime who has to live with being the Kingslayer because he acted on his own. That's what happens when you're just "following orders" or "following vows", it's not your fault, it's the fault of the one who gave the orders.

I still like him, but I found his personality rather weak.

[Lummel]

Emphasis mine, but I have a feeling this might be important, if it turns out that Dany actually is or becomes insane.

I don't know. From Barristan's chapters in ADWD you can see that he idolises Daenerys so I think so long as she keeps him in her Kingsguard he will be happy to follow her.

...And while the KG at the ToJ might have said they would have killed Jaime, a far more interesting question is what would have happened if the roles were reversed? If Dayne and crowd were guarding Aerys and saw the king's intention to burn down KL, would they too have slain Aerys? And if Jaime were at the ToJ, how would a pragmatic teenager's conversation gone with Ned Stark? Ned despised Jaime for killing Aerys, but if Jaime had been at the ToJ, that feeling would not exist between the two men...

True, things would have worked out quite differently.

I can imagine that Dayne and Co would have considered it an honour to guard Aerys II even as the flames engulfed them all.

[KL State of Mind]

Barry is a bit of a wimp when it comes to making his own decisions

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well yes, pretty much!

As has been mentioned above he accepted, after he had recovered from his wounds the transfer of power from Aerys to Robert. He serves alongside the man who slew Aerys and violated his oath, he doesn't go into exile to protect Daenerys and Viserys even though Dragonstone doesn't fall for about a year after the end of the rebellion and his only critical thought in ADWD is that he wuld have killed Robert if he had the wrong expression on his face when presented with Rhaegar's dead children!

Fameously when the assassination of Daenerys is discussed in council it is Stark not Selmy who objects most strongly and makes it a matter of principal whihc considering their backgrounds and relationships with the Targaryens is striking.

He's a moral lightweight which I fear makes him very dangerous as a councilor to Daenerys, his moral compass seems to have pointed resolutely to wearing the white armour. So long as he did that everything was ok as far as he was concerned. Right up until Joffrey pulls the scales from his eyes when he promptly goes off to wear the white armour for Daenerys instead.

Barristan the bold - good with a sword, but not with morality.

:agree:

"I was only following orders"

scary.

:agree:

Honestly, I despise Barristan Selmy for his lack of a spine. Well, actually I despise him for the praise heaped upon him while he lacks a spine and the way he views himself as doing the right thing.

[Mikkel]

Honestly, I despise Barristan Selmy for his lack of a spine. Well, actually I despise him for the praise heaped upon him while he lacks a spine and the way he views himself as doing the right thing.

He has his flaws for sure, but I'm curious: what would you have had him do after he was wounded at the Trident, Ser Darry had fled with Viserys and the unborn Dany, and the rest of the royal family was dead, and a victorious Robert sits the Iron Throne. I realize this sounds like a defense, but it's not intended as such - I really am curious as to what he should do to not appear (in your words) spineless?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He has his flaws for sure, but I'm curious: what would you have had him do after he was wounded at the Trident, Ser Darry had fled with Viserys and the unborn Dany, and the rest of the royal family was dead, and a victorious Robert sits the Iron Throne. I realize this sounds like a defense, but it's not intended as such - I really am curious as to what he should do to not appear (in your words) spineless?

Several options:

- take the Black

- become a septon

- go back to Harvest Hall

- run for Braavos

- switch to Robert full-time and not till Joff dismissed him (addendum: don't treat Jaime like crap but keep him in the Kingsguard, solve that problem either way)

Truth to tell, it's his later actions that make me despise him.

[Mikkel]

- take the Black

- become a septon

If it was offered - there's no guarantee it would be, or if Kingsguard are eligible for the Black. Assuming it was offered, that might have been a way out though.

- go back to Harvest Hall

I have a feeling Robert might require a little more of him than "alright, off you go!"

- run for Braavos

Again, I don't think he was free to just do as he pleased - being wounded and on the losing side, he was most likely captured at the Trident

- switch to Robert full-time and not till Joff dismissed him (addendum: don't treat Jaime like crap but keep him in the Kingsguard, solve that problem either way)

He did switch to Robert, and it's not like he was given a choice when Joff dismissed him - though I may have misunderstood you? I agree he's unnecessarily harsh on Jaime, but part of that may be anger at himself over the choice he ended up making (yes, people are like that!)

Truth to tell, it's his later actions that make me despise him.

Which ones? Going to Dany?

[Lummel]

...Again, I don't think he was free to just do as he pleased - being wounded and on the losing side, he was most likely captured at the Trident...

That's true, but he recovered and was made Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It would have been possible for him then to have slipped out of Kings Landing and sailed to Braavos to serve Viserys and Daenerys. But he choose to stay in Kings Landing. Just as he choose to accept the honour of being Lord Commander over Jaime despite his POV revelation that he felt that Jaime dishonoured the kingsguard.

I don't think that taking the black or going into exile would have been easy options - they would have been hard and difficult, but that would have represented at least some kind of moral consistency.

Instead he chooses to live the easy life until Joffrey kicks him out.

[Mikkel]

That's true, but he recovered and was made Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It would have been possible for him then to have slipped out of Kings Landing and sailed to Braavos to serve Viserys and Daenerys.

So breaking his new oath to Robert, who was the legitimate King by Conquest, would have been more honorable than breaking his old oath to dead Aerys? Okay, that's certainly one way to look at it. I don't agree, obviously, but okay.

[Lummel]

A fair point.

But strictly speaking can, from a moral point of view, he swear an oath to Robert when Aerys' heir was alive? Surely his duty as a Kingsguard was to go to Viserys?

[Mikkel]

A fair point.

But strictly speaking can, from a moral point of view, he swear an oath to Robert when Aerys' heir was alive? Surely his duty as a Kingsguard was to go to Viserys?

Well, that's the crux of the whole moral dilemma (from my POV, and also it appears from Barristan's): Was he obligated to serve Aerys' heirs, or the new King, since technically Aerys' heirs were no longer royalty, as their family had been ousted from power, legally and physically.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If it was offered - there's no guarantee it would be, or if Kingsguard are eligible for the Black. Assuming it was offered, that might have been a way out though.

It would be hard to refuse him the chance to take the Black. Kingsguard did that before.

I have a feeling Robert might require a little more of him than "alright, off you go!"

Maybe. What kept him from trying?

Again, I don't think he was free to just do as he pleased - being wounded and on the losing side, he was most likely captured at the Trident

No one claimed it to be easy.

He did switch to Robert, and it's not like he was given a choice when Joff dismissed him - though I may have misunderstood you? I agree he's unnecessarily harsh on Jaime, but part of that may be anger at himself over the choice he ended up making (yes, people are like that!)

He switched to Robert and accepted Joffrey the shit as rightful king. That's a one way street. He can't go to Dany afterwards and be all "oh you are the rightful queen blablabla" afterwards just because he lost his cushy position as LC of the Kingsguard.

Which ones? Going to Dany?

That, kissing up to her, refusing to give her the truth, refusing to think for himself, all kind of shit.

Well, that's the crux of the whole moral dilemma (from my POV, and also it appears from Barristan's): Was he obligated to serve Aerys' heirs, or the new King, since technically Aerys' heirs were no longer royalty, as their family had been ousted from power, legally and physically.

One way street as above. Either Robert or Dany. Moral choice, make it and stay with it. Not change it on a whim because you miss your white cloak.

[Lion of Judah]

He served with alongside the knight who committed regicide against his king. Served the king who plotted regicide against the king he served. Anyway you dissect the situation his honor is lacking. yes Robert won the throne by right of conquest and is now a true king, but the ass that sit the Iron Throne doesn't change the oaths you took.

[James Arryn]

Selmy by definition defers to the will of kings.

He might personally object to Jaime being forgiven, but as it was a king he's sworn to who did the forgiving, Selmy buys in.

It's hard to get our heads around that kind of thinking, but again, would you want the Secret Service detail deciding the rights and wrongs of a President's decisions?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Selmy by definition defers to the will of kings.

He might personally object to Jaime being forgiven, but as it was a king he's sworn to who did the forgiving, Selmy buys in.

It's hard to get our heads around that kind of thinking, but again, would you want the Secret Service detail deciding the rights and wrongs of a President's decisions?

In case of murder and the like? Oh yes, definitely.

[Mammothsbane]

I can't believe how many people on here are anti-Barristan. It is truly shocking, especially given how many people love Jaime.

Barristan is a good knight. He is not without his flaws, but he is a good soldier. He pleaded for the life of Dontos after he saved Aerys in that whole incident. He spoke out against Robert's will to kill Dany. He could have fled to Dragonstone when Robert came knocking, but he didn't because quoted by one of the Kingsguard at the ToJ: "The Kingsguard does not flee." He is subject to the whim of the King because he is the Kingsguard, not the King's counsel.

It extends to how you feel about soldiers in general. They are following orders. While they may not like them, they are sworn to obey. It's easy to say "they should have said "no!" in hindsight. In fact, Barristan does it in his POV chapters. He laments on his mistakes and how he was. I don't think we are in a position to judge the things Barristan did (or didn't do) based on knowledge after the fact. He recalls how he judged Robert based on his reaction to the deaths of the children, and knew that "if Robert smiled, he would kill him" (paraphrase). He is a Kingsguard and felt Robert was king and it was his duty to obey.

I guess it just depends on your opinions on honor. I don't think Barristan was without honor.

[James Arryn]

In case of murder and the like? Oh yes, definitely.

As soon as you say 'in the case of', you've started slipping down the slope.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

[Lion of Judah]

I can't believe how many people on here are anti-Barristan. It is truly shocking, especially given how many people love Jaime.

Barristan is a good knight. He is not without his flaws, but he is a good soldier. He pleaded for the life of Dontos after he saved Aerys in that whole incident. He spoke out against Robert's will to kill Dany. He could have fled to Dragonstone when Robert came knocking, but he didn't because quoted by one of the Kingsguard at the ToJ: "The Kingsguard does not flee." He is subject to the whim of the King because he is the Kingsguard, not the King's counsel.

It extends to how you feel about soldiers in general. They are following orders. While they may not like them, they are sworn to obey. It's easy to say "they should have said "no!" in hindsight. In fact, Barristan does it in his POV chapters. He laments on his mistakes and how he was. I don't think we are in a position to judge the things Barristan did (or didn't do) based on knowledge after the fact. He recalls how he judged Robert based on his reaction to the deaths of the children, and knew that "if Robert smiled, he would kill him" (paraphrase). He is a Kingsguard and felt Robert was king and it was his duty to obey.

I guess it just depends on your opinions on honor. I don't think Barristan was without honor.

Protect the king in an order. Work with and for the guy that killed him...not so much.