Why didn't Selmy challenge Jamie?

[Lonin]

Selmy was sworn to protect the monarch of westeros regardless of who the monarch actually was.

One king dies, he serves the next and so on.

I disagree, he swore to defend the Targaryen dynasty, and Targaryen Kings. He had sworn to die for Aerys II.

I distinguish between the Targaryen Kingsguard and Robert's Kingsguard, Robert chose to continue the KG to show the continuity of the Iron Throne.

He then chose to join Robert's Kingsguard.

A quote from Jaime dream in adwd

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

"I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king..."

"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Selmy is the worst kind of "grey" character. Like Stannis (and to a lesser extent Ned) he preaches honor...but only for other people and never for himself.

He follows Aerys and his shenanigans even though he questions it. He badmouths Jaime (for doing the right thing) but won't stand up for these beliefs and swallows them to work with both Kingslayer and Usurper. He's even perfectly willing to stay on under Joffrey until Joff sends him packing.

So because he's in love with his armor, he has no choice but to throw in with another King. He doesn't go to Stannis, because Stannis will be the same kind of hypocrite he is, and might wind up cutting off his sword arm for not immediately rejecting Joff. He doesn't go to Renly, because he's a "green boy" and he's jumping Stannis, continuing to judge people better than he is by their combat prowess and arbitrary rules rather than their human worth. He doesn't go to Balon because he wants to back someone who can win. He doesn't even go to honorable and idealistic Robb, most likely because of the age again or possibly guilt over Ned's death and fears of repercussions.

No, instead he goes across the sea, and anonymously spies on Dany to see if she is "worthy" (translation - can she win? or is he wasting his time). He doesn't hold Dany to the same combat prowess requirements he holds Renly or Robb because she's just a girl. He looks down on Jorah for "spying" when he's pretty much doing the same thing, And doesn't reveal himself until the jig is up.

The man is incapable of making decisions, and would rather shield himself in following orders and a code than make a choice to do the right thing. And now he has the additional sin of old men, where he immediately discounts those younger than he is because he falsely believes himself to be better and wiser.

Selmy, possibly even more than Gregor, is the kind of disgusting filth of a knight that Sandor looks down on. Sure, they made Gregor a knight, but EVERYONE knows he's evil. Selmy is the kind of knight who pretends to be doing the just thing, the moral thing, but he wouldn't understand the first thing about morality if he didn't have someone telling him what to do.

I expect Selmy will get a "noble" death, but I hold out hope that he either gets his comeuppance at hands of Jorah Mormont, or even better... that he dies unloved and alone of the plague in a ditch in a distant kingdom where nobody knows his name and his corpse is desecrated by common street urchins, rabid dogs, and maggots.

:agree:

You put it on bytes beautifully.

[Mikkel]

Selmy is the worst kind of "grey" character. Like Stannis (and to a lesser extent Ned) he preaches honor...but only for other people and never for himself.

He follows Aerys and his shenanigans even though he questions it. He badmouths Jaime (for doing the right thing) but won't stand up for these beliefs and swallows them to work with both Kingslayer and Usurper. He's even perfectly willing to stay on under Joffrey until Joff sends him packing.

So because he's in love with his armor, he has no choice but to throw in with another King. He doesn't go to Stannis, because Stannis will be the same kind of hypocrite he is, and might wind up cutting off his sword arm for not immediately rejecting Joff. He doesn't go to Renly, because he's a "green boy" and he's jumping Stannis, continuing to judge people better than he is by their combat prowess and arbitrary rules rather than their human worth. He doesn't go to Balon because he wants to back someone who can win. He doesn't even go to honorable and idealistic Robb, most likely because of the age again or possibly guilt over Ned's death and fears of repercussions.

No, instead he goes across the sea, and anonymously spies on Dany to see if she is "worthy" (translation - can she win? or is he wasting his time). He doesn't hold Dany to the same combat prowess requirements he holds Renly or Robb because she's just a girl. He looks down on Jorah for "spying" when he's pretty much doing the same thing, And doesn't reveal himself until the jig is up.

The man is incapable of making decisions, and would rather shield himself in following orders and a code than make a choice to do the right thing. And now he has the additional sin of old men, where he immediately discounts those younger than he is because he falsely believes himself to be better and wiser.

Selmy, possibly even more than Gregor, is the kind of disgusting filth of a knight that Sandor looks down on. Sure, they made Gregor a knight, but EVERYONE knows he's evil. Selmy is the kind of knight who pretends to be doing the just thing, the moral thing, but he wouldn't understand the first thing about morality if he didn't have someone telling him what to do.

I expect Selmy will get a "noble" death, but I hold out hope that he either gets his comeuppance at hands of Jorah Mormont, or even better... that he dies unloved and alone of the plague in a ditch in a distant kingdom where nobody knows his name and his corpse is desecrated by common street urchins, rabid dogs, and maggots.

That's some serious hate right there :D well, I disagree (obviously), and I definitely think you're being unfair in attributing his "spying" of Dany to an attempt at gauging her ability to "win" - he's a wiser man than he was, and doesn't want to serve another Aerys, so I feel quite sure that's why he's gauging her before revealing his identity, or swearing his service to her.

There's no way Selmy is worse than Gregor, are you really arguing that making some, let's say dubious, choices* regarding about whom he wants to serve is worse than raping, murdering and pillaging your way across the land?

Like has been said, the Kingslayer was pardoned, and therefore Selmy had no particular reason to hate Jaime - sure, he's on his back about killing Aerys, and this is definitely not a point in his favor, but I still think that's at least partly his own guilt speaking, rather than any sort of genuine belief that Aerys was a good man.

He has done some wrong things, but he's really not deserving of this level of hate. To the best of my knowledge, he has never betrayed anyone to their death, or killed anyone in cold blood.

*IMO he didn't have that much of a choice, people seem to think he was in a position to do anything after the war, which he obviously wasn't.

[Fragile Bird]

the most significant difference between Selmy's situation & that of his "brothers" is that most of them died on the field during battle. Selmy was gravely injured at the end of a battle & Robert chose not to kill/execute him. It was by no means a surrender in the conventional sense. Its not as if a healthy Selmy bent the knee and fought beside Robert for the rest of the war, he was incapacitated. By the time he returns to health the war is over & Robert the victor, or else he very well may have returned to fight for the mad king. Lets also remember that 3 of the KG's best were off at the ToJ & presumably never fought in the war.

I would point out that Robert was famous as a person who could turn an enemy into a sworn friend. Pretty well everyone who fought on the other side swore fealty to him, not just injured men, and were loyal to him, because, it's said in the book, Robert was the kind of person you could do that for. Robert could have chosen not to pardon Selmy and Jaime, but why would he? He had the Lannisters choose him at the end, and Selmy was famous throughout the land, a warrior Robert would have admired. Robert also would have admired Selmy giving his all beside Rhaegar at the Trident. By the time Selmy recovered from his injuries, there was no war to continue to fight.

[Chaircat Meow]

Woah. Some serious Barry hate here.

It wasn't the job of the KG to stop Aerys in anyway, at least before he turned his hand to planning city wide bonfires and Barry was away when this happened. Selmy fought bravely on the Trident, was badly wounded, and was spared by Robert. When he got to KL the king was dead and so were the children. As I understood it the KG are supposed to give their lives in defence of the king. They are not required to piss them away randomly so Barry didn't do anything wrong in taking Robert's pardon and not avenging the children.

But yea - his who is the true king reasoning is pretty self serving. I don't agree it makes him a joke of a knight though. He was entitled to take service where he wanted after he left KL.

[Ser Lepus]

So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose to live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker.

Yeah, that's right. Selmy may not have killed a king, but he did jump ship when the new regime came in, so he would be something of a hypocrite for condemning Jaime for also jumping ship. And if Robert as king is willing to pardon Jaime for kingslaying and allow Jaime to keep his white cloak, well it isn't really up to Selmy to contradict the king's orders, Selmy just does as he is told.

Let us notice that although Selmy objects to the assassination of Daenerys and her unborn child, he doesn't exactly do much more than that. He votes no. Then he seems to move on pretty quickly. He's not a "standing on principle" sort of guy. He doesn't even really - that I remember - do much to support Ned, when Ned does pitch a fit.

Yep, Barry may have changed his feelings after Cersei unceremoniously dumped him. In my opinion he's a lot more spineless, emotionally and morally, than most people wish to agree.

I always have thought than a truly honourable man would have asked to be either released from his vows as a kingsguard (I`m sure Doran Martell or the current Lord Dayne would have been happy to take him as one of their knights) or to be sent to the Wall.

I can see that Selmy's view on honor is that he always had to do whatever he was told, but whenever he has a free choice, he always takes questionable ones: 1.-He chose to serve the man who had killed his prince and remain as part of the Kingsguard with Jamie, and 2.-later he chose to turn against his king (because once he accepted Robert and later Joffrey as his legitimate lieges, it was his duty as one of their vassals to serve them regardless of them keeping as kingsguard or not) because the latter removed him from his position as kingsguard...

Selmy seems to think that the legitimate king /queen is whoever will take/keep him as kingsguard/lord commander..."So you don't want me anymore as kingsguard? Fine! I've just decided that the girl king Robert was plotting to kill when I sat in his Council is the legitimate queen!"

It's quite surprising how everybody turns a blind eye towards his failings; I guess the westerosi view on honor isn't quite or own.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Woah. Some serious Barry hate here.

It wasn't the job of the KG to stop Aerys in anyway, at least before he turned his hand to planning city wide bonfires and Barry was away when this happened. Selmy fought bravely on the Trident, was badly wounded, and was spared by Robert. When he got to KL the king was dead and so were the children. As I understood it the KG are supposed to give their lives in defence of the king. They are not required to piss them away randomly so Barry didn't do anything wrong in taking Robert's pardon and not avenging the children.

But yea - his who is the true king reasoning is pretty self serving. I don't agree it makes him a joke of a knight though. He was entitled to take service where he wanted after he left KL.

You've got the right of it. But unfortunately, Barristan is always presented (in the books and more importantly in the fandom) as this paragon of virtue when he is anything but. That dichotomy is the reason why I can't stand him at all.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Its easy to see why the Hound dislikes Knighthood!

[nQthing]

Why didn't he challange king aerys when he burnt lord Rickard alive. He's a bold knight and he choose when to be noble

[Mikkel]

2.-later he chose to turn against his king (because once he accepted Robert and later Joffrey as his legitimate lieges, it was his duty as one of their vassals to serve them regardless of them keeping as kingsguard or not) because the latter removed him from his position as kingsguard...

It's quite surprising how everybody turns a blind eye towards his failings; I guess the westerosi view on honor isn't quite or own.

You seem to forget that Joffrey made it quite clear that he didn't want his service, in any capacity, and later on ordered Selmy arrested. So no, he was not in a position to continue serving that dynasty.

[Ser Lepus]

But yea - his who is the true king reasoning is pretty self serving. I don't agree it makes him a joke of a knight though. He was entitled to take service where he wanted after he left KL.

The problem is, if Dany or Vyseris are the legitimate queen or king, then Barristan has been serving an usurper for fourteen years; there is no way around it.

And yes, Barry feared that Viserys could be as mad as Aerys, but Aerys madness never was an obstacle for Barry to remain loyal to him.

You seem to forget that Joffrey made it quite clear that he didn't want his service, in any capacity, and later on ordered Selmy arrested. So no, he was not in a position to continue serving that dynasty.

But the point is, when Barristan bent the knee and swore loyalty to Robert, he was recognizing him as the true king, and hence, he was recognizing his heir (Joffrey) as the next legitimate king. There are thousands of knights in Westeros, but only a few serve the king directly; if every knight who wasn't in direct service of the king felt free to act against the law, it would be pure chaos.

Let me remind you: Barristan recognized Robert (and hence Joffrey) as his king; when he turned against Joffrey he was committing treason as a subject, like a guy that is not given a job as policeman and turns terrorist...

[I'll pay the iron price]

Hodor would have made a better king than Viserys!

[Mikkel]

“Your Grace,” he said at last. “The Kingsguard is a Sworn Brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death may relieve the Lord Commander of his sacred trust.”

Barristan owes no fealty to Joffrey if not as part of the Kingsguard. He gave up claims to life and titles when he joined the KG, and if that's taken from him, then I see no reason he should be expected to serve in any capacity - he's essentially free of obligations. Of course, Joffrey being the douche he was, promptly ordered him arrested, but we all know how well that worked out.

[Ser Lepus]

Hodor would have made a better king than Viserys!

So what? If he thought he was the legitimate king, he could have gone to the Wall or just abandoned the Kingsguard, instead of serving an usurper.

On the other hand, if he thought Robert was the legitimate king, that made Joffrey the legitimate king after him, so he was committing treason when supporting Daenerys.

If Selmy had gone to the Wall, he wouldn't commit treason against anybody, but in serving both Robert and Daenerys, he's committing treason at least once.

“Your Grace,” he said at last. “The Kingsguard is a Sworn Brotherhood. Our vows are taken for life. Only death may relieve the Lord Commander of his sacred trust.”

Barristan owes no fealty to Joffrey if not as part of the Kingsguard. He gave up claims to life and titles when he joined the KG, and if that's taken from him, then I see no reason he should be expected to serve in any capacity - he's essentially free of obligations. Of course, Joffrey being the douche he was, promptly ordered him arrested, but we all know how well that worked out.

Again: He recognized Joffrey as his king. If you are somebody like Littlefinger or Renly, then you don't care about rights, but for people like Daenerys, Stannis, Jon Connigton, Arthur Dayne,...etc., the king is somebody who has the right to reign, and everybody who lives in the kingdom must obey and serve him or else is a traitor.

You can refuse to acknowledge somebody as king (because you think there is somebody else with better rights, for example) and fight him, but if you acknowledge that person as your king, and you believe in the knightly, feudal, medieval-like morality, then your honor as subject demands that you obey and serve that person, or else you're a traitor.

[Independent George]

Let me remind you: Barristan recognized Robert (and hence Joffrey) as his king; when he turned against Joffrey he was committing treason as a subject, like a guy that is not given a job as policeman and turns terrorist...

He didn't turn against Joffrey; Joffrey released him from service.

[Mikkel]

So what? If he thought he was the legitimate king, he could have gone to the Wall or just abandoned the Kingsguard, instead of serving an usurper.

On the other hand, if he thought Robert was the legitimate king, that made Joffrey the legitimate king after him, so he was committing treason when supporting Daenerys.

If Selmy had gone to the Wall, he wouldn't commit treason against anybody, but in serving both Robert and Daenerys, he's committing treason at least once.

The point is, he didn't turn against Joffrey (not exactly something that should be used to defend anyone, but still), Joffrey turned against him. Quite an important difference.

[Ser Lepus]

He didn't turn against Joffrey; Joffrey released him from service.

Again: A pre-constitutional. pre-parlamentary king is like a president, a government, a parlament and a Constitution rolled in one person.

In modern countries like USA or England or Japan or France or Germany there are many people that work directly for the State (soldiers, policemen, bureaucrats, public teachers...etc.), and many more that don't....but the citizens who DON'T work directly for the government are also bound by the law. You can't say "hey, I'm a democrat, but the government don't employ me and pay me a wage, so I don't have to obey it; so I can join a terrorist group and still remain a democrat".

For the people who believe in a knightly, medieval-like system of honor it's the same. The king is the king; he has been chosen by God/the gods to rule because of his blood, and even if he's not directly employing you, you, as a subject, must serve and obey him.

The point is, he didn't turn against Joffrey (not exactly something that should be used to defend anyone, but still), Joffrey turned against him. Quite an important difference.

Ser Barristan openly defied Joffrey in front of all the court; he knew what was going to happen and that Joffrey, even if he wasn't a douche, had no other choice but to have him arrested and, at the very least, force him to publicaly ask forgiveness.

[stevelabny]

Joffrey, being his King, CAN'T turn against him. Whatever Joffrey says goes, just like Robert's incompetence and Aerys' madness before him.

Joff didn't order Selmy arrested at first. He said he was going to give him a nice castle and servants to go retire in. But suddenly, Selmy, who stood by while Rickard and Brandon Stark were murdered...NOW all of a sudden Selmy can't do what his King tells him to do. Barristan's honor is all about maintaining Barristan's honor.

[Blackfish Tully]

Why didn't he challange king aerys when he burnt lord Rickard alive. He's a bold knight and he choose when to be noble

How is it Barristan's duty to protect Rickard Stark? Rickard would have been better served to call his Banners and marched south with an army but because he didn't he put himself and his son at the mercy of the Mad King , why should one of the Kingsguard throw his life away defending one of the great lords of the land if he is to stupid to protect himself. For all we know Rickard was plotting to overthrow the Mad King so he may have deserved to be executed.

For everybody who is critical of Barristan's actions, what about the end of ADWD? Barristan becomes a mayor player in the Game of Thrones and makes some decisions that will have major implications for the rest of the series.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How is it Barristan's duty to protect Rickard Stark? Rickard would have been better served to call his Banners and marched south with an army but because he didn't he put himself and his son at the mercy of the Mad King , why should one of the Kingsguard throw his life away defending one of the great lords of the land if he is to stupid to protect himself. For all we know Rickard was plotting to overthrow the Mad King so he may have deserved to be executed.

For everybody who is critical of Barristan's actions, what about the end of ADWD? Barristan becomes a mayor player in the Game of Thrones and makes some decisions that will have major implications for the rest of the series.

How is it Barristan's duty to protect Rickard Stark? Rickard would have been better served to call his Banners and marched south with an army but because he didn't he put himself and his son at the mercy of the Mad King , why should one of the Kingsguard throw his life away defending one of the great lords of the land if he is to stupid to protect himself. For all we know Rickard was plotting to overthrow the Mad King so he may have deserved to be executed.

For everybody who is critical of Barristan's actions, what about the end of ADWD? Barristan becomes a mayor player in the Game of Thrones and makes some decisions that will have major implications for the rest of the series.

Uphold justice and protect the weak. A knight's oaths, sworn long before Barristan became a Kingsguard. Cooking Rickard Stark in his armor and letting Brandon strangle himself watching was a mockery of justice and in KL they were the weak.

His actions at the end of dance were the first time in 65 years that Barristan made a moral choice The first time in the books that I can value him. The only time.