Lion of Judah Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The other Knights of Aerys KG if given the chance would have killed Jamie, "Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells." Selmy on the other hand seemed to have a pretty good relationship with him after the fact and accepted him once again as a brother in Robert's KG. I know its been said that Aerys KG was divided between those loyal to Aerys and those loyal to Rhaegar, but those who seemingly were loyal to Rhaegar wanted Jamie's head for what he did. Why not Selmy? Why did he not challenge him to fair combat at least? Couldn't Selmy as Lord Commander reject Jamie's initiation into Robert's KG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I don't think Selmy, as someone in need of pardoning for having fought against Robert, was in a position to reject the new Queens brother, who also happens to be the son of the man who delivered Kings Landing on a [only slightly blood-splattered] silver platter to Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Selmy seems to be a bit like Robert in that he's good at closing his eyes to things he doesn't wish to see. I imagine he could've caused a fuss about Jaime and denied his entrance into Rob's KG, but was too meek/tired to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jaime was alredy initiated in the KG when The White Bull was stll in command. Robert just pardoned him for killing Aerys. Also. it wouldn't have been the wisest thing for Selmy to do, challenging the Queen's brother and the son of the most powerful lord in the Realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 I don't think Selmy, as someone in need of pardoning for having fought against Robert, was in a position to reject the new Queens brother, who also happens to be the son of the man who delivered Kings Landing on a [only slightly blood-splattered] silver platter to Robert.So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose to live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daughter of Dragons Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 My opinion on that is this....I'm sure that Selmy would've loved to have killed Jaime for what he did but at the time it was such a great upheaval & confusion everywhere that I'm sure he didn't know what course of action to take. Not to mention, Robert becomes king and marries Jaime's sister. Tywin had delivered King's Landing to Robert as well. Selmy was in no position to make a move that would put his career and life in jeopardy. As far as preventing Jaime from entering the Kingsguard, I'm not sure he would have a leg to stand on with that. Eventhough he was the Lord Commander, Jaime was appointed by King Robert himself and Jaime was, after all, the new King's brother-inlaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker.Yeah, that's right. Selmy may not have killed a king, but he did jump ship when the new regime came in, so he would be something of a hypocrite for condemning Jaime for also jumping ship. And if Robert as king is willing to pardon Jaime for kingslaying and allow Jaime to keep his white cloak, well it isn't really up to Selmy to contradict the king's orders, Selmy just does as he is told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Let us notice that although Selmy objects to the assassination of Daenerys and her unborn child, he doesn't exactly do much more than that. He votes no. Then he seems to move on pretty quickly. He's not a "standing on principle" sort of guy. He doesn't even really - that I remember - do much to support Ned, when Ned does pitch a fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord's Kiss Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker.Yep, Barry may have changed his feelings after Cersei unceremoniously dumped him. In my opinion he's a lot more spineless, emotionally and morally, than most people wish to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 I hadn't given it much thought until my re-read of ADWD and he is very conflicted by his failures. It made me think more in depth about him and I didn't like the conclusion I came to considering I really liked the character before. Honor in these books seem so flexible.My opinion on that is this....I'm sure that Selmy would've loved to have killed Jaime for what he did but at the time it was such a great upheaval & confusion everywhere that I'm sure he didn't know what course of action to take. Not to mention, Robert becomes king and marries Jaime's sister. Tywin had delivered King's Landing to Robert as well. Selmy was in no position to make a move that would put his career and life in jeopardy. As far as preventing Jaime from entering the Kingsguard, I'm not sure he would have a leg to stand on with that. Eventhough he was the Lord Commander, Jaime was appointed by King Robert himself and Jaime was, after all, the new King's brother-inlaw.I see where you are coming from here, BUT a part of a KGs duty is to die in defense of the king, no? Selmy shouldn't be thinking about survival more than his commitment to the king and his brothers. Not that its smart, but if he was as honorable and true as he claimed to be he would be dead like the rest. I know he expressed regret to Dany about accepting Robert's pardon, but it's much more than accepting a pardon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Selmy isn't a paragon of honour except when you compare him to the vast majority of people who are around him, then it's clear that while he's human, he's still better than most.He did, however, fulfill his duty as Aerys' kingsguard: He fought for Aerys (and Rhaegar) until severely wounded, and by the time he was in any shape to fight again, the political reality was that he could die, or serve the new king - but in either case, he could do no more for the old one.ETA: However, for all that he still despises himself for doing it, 15 years later, which is why he goes to seek out Dany, who is in his mind the closest to a true heir.Like all Martin's characters, he's gray though - a lighter shade than most, IMO, but not snow-white either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The cynical view would be that Barristan Selmy only realized he had severe moral objections to the Kingsguard once he was dismissed from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daughter of Dragons Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I hadn't given it much thought until my re-read of ADWD and he is very conflicted by his failures. It made me think more in depth about him and I didn't like the conclusion I came to considering I really liked the character before. Honor in these books seem so flexible.I see where you are coming from here, BUT a part of a KGs duty is to die in defense of the king, no? Selmy shouldn't be thinking about survival more than his commitment to the king and his brothers. Not that its smart, but if he was as honorable and true as he claimed to be he would be dead like the rest. I know he expressed regret to Dany about accepting Robert's pardon, but it's much more than accepting a pardon. :agree: It was not the honorable thing for him to do. I know where you are coming from. It just goes to show you that he, like most all of the characters, is not flawless. It proves to you that at times a person of great honor can and will break under pressure. Ned did the same. He lied. No he didn't do it for himself. He did it for his daughters lives but he still lied none the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 :agree: It was not the honorable thing for him to do. I know where you are coming from. It just goes to show you that he, like most all of the characters, is not flawless. It proves to you that at times a person of great honor can and will break under pressure. Ned did the same. He lied. No he didn't do it for himself. He did it for his daughters lives but he still lied none the less.You know I don't have a big issue with him accepting Robert's pardon, Robert was an easy man to admire. I just can't see why he didn't want to bleep Jamie up though. Makes me wonder if Daenarys knows that Jamie was still part of the KG while Selmy served Robert, she's so oblivious to everything else. I doubt that she knows; how would she feel about Selmy if she found out? Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose to live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker.Well yes, pretty much!As has been mentioned above he accepted, after he had recovered from his wounds the transfer of power from Aerys to Robert. He serves alongside the man who slew Aerys and violated his oath, he doesn't go into exile to protect Daenerys and Viserys even though Dragonstone doesn't fall for about a year after the end of the rebellion and his only critical thought in ADWD is that he wuld have killed Robert if he had the wrong expression on his face when presented with Rhaegar's dead children!Fameously when the assassination of Daenerys is discussed in council it is Stark not Selmy who objects most strongly and makes it a matter of principal whihc considering their backgrounds and relationships with the Targaryens is striking.He's a moral lightweight which I fear makes him very dangerous as a councilor to Daenerys, his moral compass seems to have pointed resolutely to wearing the white armour. So long as he did that everything was ok as far as he was concerned. Right up until Joffrey pulls the scales from his eyes when he promptly goes off to wear the white armour for Daenerys instead.Barristan the bold - good with a sword, but not with morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well yes, pretty much!As has been mentioned above he accepted, after he had recovered from his wounds the transfer of power from Aerys to Robert. He serves alongside the man who slew Aerys and violated his oath, he doesn't go into exile to protect Daenerys and Viserys even though Dragonstone doesn't fall for about a year after the end of the rebellion and his only critical thought in ADWD is that he wuld have killed Robert if he had the wrong expression on his face when presented with Rhaegar's dead children!Fameously when the assassination of Daenerys is discussed in council it is Stark not Selmy who objects most strongly and makes it a matter of principal whihc considering their backgrounds and relationships with the Targaryens is striking.He's a moral lightweight which I fear makes him very dangerous as a councilor to Daenerys, his moral compass seems to have pointed resolutely to wearing the white armour. So long as he did that everything was ok as far as he was concerned. Right up until Joffrey pulls the scales from his eyes when he promptly goes off to wear the white armour for Daenerys instead.Barristan the bold - good with a sword, but not with morality. :agree: 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So Selmy isn't as honorable as we may think then, because it would seem as though politics/survival came before honor. Unlike his brothers who died instead of bending the knee to the usurper Selmy chose to live and accept the fact that Jamie was an oath breaker.Of course he's not, if he was, he would have run to Bravos to protect Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melonica Stormborn Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ser Barristan is more of a follower than a leader. He will do as he is told by whoever is superior. Even in Meereen he only seemingly acted on his own when Dany was gone (and Skahaz has to initiate this as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnusPrime Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ser Grandpa is a man whose whole life has been about serving the king. His Moralistic view on life is colored by the service he has been providing for almost his entire life. Selmy is a soldier nothing more nothing less. His whole life is the domain of the sword and without someone to swear his sword to he is lost.True his dismissal at the hands of Joffery and Cersie causes him to open his eyes and question what does blind loyalty Get when those you serve are not worthy of your loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ser Barristan is more of a follower than a leader. He will do as he is told by whoever is superior..."I was only following orders"scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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