grindylow Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 My answer to the OP has to be this:It still shamed Ser Arys to remember all the times he’d struck that poor Stark girl at the boy’s command. When Tyrion had chosen him to go with Myrcella to Dorne, he lit a candle to the Warrior in thanks.I have to think that no matter how much he hates the principle of what Jaime did, Barristan was relieved that Aerys was dead, relieved that someone else took care of it, relieved that he was honorably occupied and so prevented from either having to kill or die to defend a murderous madman, relieved that he wasn't forced to make Jaime's choice himself. Fifteen years later, he's still so haunted by the things he saw during his time guarding Aerys that he observes Dany in disguise for months to make certain he doesn't find himself in that position again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis Julius Caesar Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 And if Jaime were at the ToJ, how would a pragmatic teenager's conversation gone with Ned Stark? Ned despised Jaime for killing Aerys, but if Jaime had been at the ToJ, that feeling would not exist between the two men.and ned wouldn't have survived. im sorry couldn't resist, was just set up perfect on a plate lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's hard to get our heads around that kind of thinking, but again, would you want the Secret Service detail deciding the rights and wrongs of a President's decisions?The US Secret Service is a poor comparison to Westeros' Kingsguard. The Secret Service is law enforcement agency whose primary duties deal with financial and electronic fraud. Guarding members of state is a small part of what they do. Their oaths are not sworn to an individual dynastic family, but to the constitution, the laws and the offices guarding those laws. As far as I know, their vows to protect members of state and their families do not supersede their primary oaths. A number of whistleblowing cases have been attributed to Secret Service agents and I think it's hard to disagree that those who blew whistles were not honorable for upholding their oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 and ned wouldn't have survived. im sorry couldn't resist, was just set up perfect on a plate lolWell, that's what so interesting about the concept - Jaime showed that he could think at the age of 17 or 18, if Ned showed up one month after the Battle of the Trident with the news Robert had been declared king and both Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, would Jaime have fought him? Or would he have agreed with Ned that hiding the child was a better thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis Julius Caesar Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well, that's what so interesting about the concept - Jaime showed that he could think at the age of 17 or 18, if Ned showed up one month after the Battle of the Trident with the news Robert had been declared king and both Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, would Jaime have fought him? Or would he have agreed with Ned that hiding the child was a better thought.i understand what your trying to say, and it matches with his ability to think for himself as opposed to be a puppet...BUT....he is a lannister. i....sincerely dont think he would kill a new born child (full disclosure, im not unbiased, he is a favourite of mine) but im sure he would have realized what a threat a concealed baby targ would serve to robert and the lannisters. he is definitly a sharp guy (as evidenced in recent povs) and would have immediately informed his father while at the same time gaining major cred with his new king robert. i think it would have been an interesting stand off, could easily have two kings guards ready to defend baby jon with their lives and jaime with his honey tongue trying to convince ned that the best course of action would have been to bring jon to tywin and or robert. so what happens then? do hightower and the other kings guard turn on jamie? wouldn't that go against there honour? what would ned, howland and the other four companions do if they see kingsguards go at it? wait and watch? get into it? its all very interesting and leaves so many possibilites if jaime was there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 laurus 3, you're forgetting that Jaime hero worshipped Rhaegar. I would think he would care about the child over and above any Lannister issues, and I certainly don't think he'd give a damn about any future problems that would present to Robert.But, this is all mere speculation, isn't it? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis Julius Caesar Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 laurus 3, you're forgetting that Jaime hero worshipped Rhaegar. I would think he would care about the child over and above any Lannister issues, and I certainly don't think he'd give a damn about any future problems that would present to Robert.But, this is all mere speculation, isn't it? :)all very true. but you must also remember that although jamie could think for himself he was still very much under his fathers thumb, dont forget that it was him who without question told tyrion tysha was a whore. with his reasoning being that his father said it was for the good of the family. now when you combine that obedience at a young age with someone sharp enough to think "hmmmm....this could be a problem..." i think it adds up to him telling tywin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Perhaps you are right, and Rhaegar agreed with you, which is why Jaime was not at the ToJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis Julius Caesar Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Perhaps you are right, and Rhaegar agreed with you, which is why Jaime was not at the ToJ.what you just said just sparked something i hadn't thought of before. baby jon was kept a secret from jaime, was he the only kings guard left in the dark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 what you just said just sparked something i hadn't thought of before. baby jon was kept a secret from jaime, was he the only kings guard left in the dark?No. Barristan didn't know either. Whent and Martell are unlikely as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jaime shouldn't have killed Aerys, he should've captured him and held him for judgement, that's what Ned would've wanted, he also should've protected the babies & Elia. I can't believe he has the gall to complain about how people responded to what he did.No idea why Selmy didn't challenge him & spank his arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Jaime shouldn't have killed Aerys, he should've captured him and held him for judgement, that's what Ned would've wanted, he also should've protected the babies & Elia. I can't believe he has the gall to complain about how people responded to what he did.No idea why Selmy didn't challenge him & spank his arse.Or just protected him from himself by stopping the wildfire plot, given Aerys planned to torch himself. Ran did a video where he argued this and I think he is right; Jaime's vows didn't conflict really, had he thought about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnusPrime Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I agree that Ser Batristan probably could have at the very least challenged Jaime over slaying of king Aerys. But really what would that have solved? And would robert have even allowed it? And would jaime even accept the challenge?Barristan has his flaws but to say he is spineless is taking it too far. What good would have come from him running off to Essos to protect Viserys and Dany? He had no wealth of his own, he brought no additional swords, and he had no influence in Essos. Maybe he could have prevented Viserys from going insane and actually tried to mold him to be worthy of the throne someday.Barristan is not weak he just only knows how to be and do one thing: serve and protect his majesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think it is a combination of relief and guilt on Selmy's part. As some mentioned, relief that he didn't have to deal with the messy work of eliminating Aerys, but also guilt since what we know of his character, he saw himself as no better than Jaime since they both let let down their previous King and switched allegiance to a new one...Perhaps you are right, and Rhaegar agreed with you, which is why Jaime was not at the ToJ.The Jaime we meet at the beginning of GoT took years to make. No doubt the constant barrage he receives for being a kingslayer without honor has a lot to do with it. I imagine that Jaime at the ToJ would have been a different person, and I could see him doing everything in his power to help protect Rhaegar's child... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauis Julius Caesar Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think it is a combination of relief and guilt on Selmy's part. As some mentioned, relief that he didn't have to deal with the messy work of eliminating Aerys, but also guilt since what we know of his character, he saw himself as no better than Jaime since they both let let down their previous King and switched allegiance to a new one...The Jaime we meet at the beginning of GoT took years to make. No doubt the constant barrage he receives for being a kingslayer without honor has a lot to do with it. I imagine that Jaime at the ToJ would have been a different person, and I could see him doing everything in his power to help protect Rhaegar's child...then why wasn't he at the tower of joy? whatever anyone may think about rhaegar, he was supposedly a smart guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 then why wasn't he at the tower of joy? whatever anyone may think about rhaegar, he was supposedly a smart guyOh, I'm just teasing you, laurus 3. Jaime was at KL because Aerys wanted him close, to ensure Tywin's loyalty or to use Jaime as a pawn if necessary. There was no way Rhaegar could have ever sent him away for any long period of time, like to the ToJ. And in any event, Rhaegar felt more comfortable with Jaime at KL where Elia and the children were, and took Selmy to the battle, probably thinking Selmy's skill and experience outweighed Jaime's skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 then why wasn't he at the tower of joy? whatever anyone may think about rhaegar, he was supposedly a smart guyTo quote the Dude, there were probably a lot of in's, a lot of out's, a lot of what have you's... Heheh ;)But seriously, I don't see Rhaegar's not telling Jamie about the ToJ as question of Jamie's character. At that point, Rhaegar already had 3 KG at the ToJ, and Jayme was the only KG left to protect his father. Rhaegar probably didn't see any need / benefit in telling anyone else where it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Selmy never liked Jaime. He was cordial enough I suppose, since he didn't have a say in it... but the first thing he does after being dropped from the Kingsguard is bash Jaime for being such a poor member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupoleon Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Oh, I'm just teasing you, laurus 3. Jaime was at KL because Aerys wanted him close, to ensure Tywin's loyalty or to use Jaime as a pawn if necessary. There was no way Rhaegar could have ever sent him away for any long period of time, like to the ToJ. And in any event, Rhaegar felt more comfortable with Jaime at KL where Elia and the children were, and took Selmy to the battle, probably thinking Selmy's skill and experience outweighed Jaime's skill....and that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Selmy never liked Jaime. He was cordial enough I suppose, since he didn't have a say in it... but the first thing he does after being dropped from the Kingsguard is bash Jaime for being such a poor member.Honestly, I got the impression Barristan was jealous of Jaime. Here is this young handsome heir from one of the most powerful families in Westeros, who is also the greatest natural swordsman he'd ever seen in at least a long time, if not ever (can't remember his exact words from ADWD). We get the impression that Barristan already felt a little outside of Rhaegar's inner circle, and somewhat envious of Arthur Dayne. Jaime's addition to the Kingsguard seems likely to have exacerbated those insecurities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.