Why didn't Selmy challenge Jamie?

[Chaircat Meow]

Come on people, it's not Barry's job to protect Rickard Stark. Household knights aren't supposed to interpose themselves between their lords and those he judges and sentences.

'Protect the weak' is not some kind of carte blanche directive to act as a law unto yourself whenever you disagree with the decisions of the legal authorities.

If this were the case every knight in westeros would be near to being an oathbreaker for not putting themselves on standby whenever Tywin goes to war with a rival house. And Barry was in the wrong again for not arresting/hacking down Robert for endorsing the Dany assassination policy. And if Ned had taken vows so would he be.

Anyway, we don't know if Aerys accused Rickard of anything beyond being Brandon's father. Odds are he was very suspicious of his political manoeuvres and had been for some time. And yes, the king can put people to death if he says they are traitors. He's the highest judge in the land and is charged with upholding and interpreting the law. He shouldn't act illegally but he's the one who has to enforce the law against law breakers, not the KG, because they are not the king. If you live in a monarchy such as westeros the king makes the call in how the law is interpreted.

How one of the greatest lords in the seven kingdoms falls into the 'weak' category either ...

[Lion of Judah]

Challenge him for what? Jaime had been pardoned; there is nothing left to challenge at that point. Killing Jaime would be a personal grudge, and not an act of law.

What do you mean challenge him for what? He committed regicide against the king your brothers died fighting for, brothers that you fought with side by side. A pardon doesn't change that, the law doesn't change that, it's the principle of not serving alongside an oath breaker. Seeing as how the oaths and vows you took supposedly meant so much.

[Alester Florent]

I get the impression that Barristan's loyalty, by the end, was to the Kingsguard and the idea of it at leat as much as to the kings themselves. He knew what Aerys was, and he must have been disappointed in Robert, too, but the KG are there to protect the king, not judge him, and all that jazz, so he nods along, whatever he privately thinks of it. That's probably to an extent the way he has to be: he's seen plenty of members of the royal family come and go, so he can't get too attached to them as individuals. He can die for them on the battlefield but he can't stop them burning themselves to death or drinking so much wine they can barely stand up. He'll stand by and do his duty to the letter and nothing more, because there's no point.

As for serving alongside Jaime, and taking the role of Lord Commander, he plainly isn't happy about serving alongside Jaime, but he didn't have much of a choice in that. As far as he's concerned, the KG serve for life, so if the king's not going to get rid of Jaime, BS is going to have to put up with it (he can't leave, himself, either). As for accepting the role of LC, that will have been a no-brainer, as Jaime was the only other viable candidate. At least as LC he can exercise some degree of control over the future of the Kingsguard, rather than leaving a man who broke his oath in charge to dishonour it.

The irony, of course, is that where the Kingsguard stagnated under Barristan, Jaime seems to be making a concerted effort to repair it now that he's in charge.

[Alester Florent]

The problem is, if Dany or Vyseris are the legitimate queen or king, then Barristan has been serving an usurper for fourteen years; there is no way around it.

Not if Joffrey wasn't Robert's legitimate heir. Which he isn't. The reason the WOFK happens is that the succession to Robert is unclear. At that point, even if the Targs were legitimately deposed by Robert's rebellion, they're still claimants for the succession after his death.

Plus, as is often pointed out, Daenerys has dragons, and there's a precedent for the exclusive possessor of dragons to be considered the true monarch of Westeros even if they have no prior claim whatsoever.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Not if Joffrey wasn't Robert's legitimate heir. Which he isn't. The reason the WOFK happens is that the succession to Robert is unclear. At that point, even if the Targs were legitimately deposed by Robert's rebellion, they're still claimants for the succession after his death.

Plus, as is often pointed out, Daenerys has dragons, and there's a precedent for the exclusive possessor of dragons to be considered the true monarch of Westeros even if they have no prior claim whatsoever.

If Barristan didn't consider Joff Bobs legitimite heir, he should have stood with Ned Stark, which he didn't. If he got it later, Stannis was very much alive and Bob's legitimate heir.

And the dragons are a very, very weak case. The Valyrians had dragons for centuries and were never Westerosi monarchs.

[Alester Florent]

Yeah, it's really just a technicality. Although it's amazing the degree to which these things can be fudged. Before Aegon, there were no kings of Westeros, so he's got to be taken as the starting point. Daenerys with her dragons (and the only person who has them) could be seen as the true heir of Aegon I, circumventing all the monarchs in between, and regardless of her succession status regarding Robert or even Aerys.

(See Henry IV of England, who took the throne as the "true heir" of Henry III - his great-great-great-grandfather - because he was the most recent king of whom he could uncontentiously be declared the rightful successor (after Richard II). It was legal shenanigans of the highest order, but it got the job done, just about).

I get the impression that Barristan considers Stannis to be Robert's true heir - the business with Ned probably happened too quickly for him to get a handle on what was going on, but once he put two and two together he seems to have worked it out. His last words to Joffrey were something along the lines of "maybe Lord Stannis will chance to sit on [my sword] when he takes your throne".

Going to find Dany seemed more like personal atonement than anything, and he doesn't seem to have turned up with the intention of acting as a Kingsguard.

It might simply be that he was able to reconcile what was going on when Robert was alive, because he liked and respected him. But once Bob is dead and his autopilot is disabled when he's dismissed from the KG, he decides the powers that be in Westeros are rotten to the core and goes to find a Targ to put things right again. Because, you know, everything was fine when they were in charge.

People are allowed to change their minds, too.

[Blackfish Tully]

Uphold justice and protect the weak. A knight's oaths, sworn long before Barristan became a Kingsguard. Cooking Rickard Stark in his armor and letting Brandon strangle himself watching was a mockery of justice and in KL they were the weak.

His actions at the end of dance were the first time in 65 years that Barristan made a moral choice The first time in the books that I can value him. The only time.

We do not know if Barristan was even there when the Starks were killed but even if he was what could he possibly have done to save the Starks?

We saw in his POV chapters in ADWD that he is a man who faced very difiicult choices throughout his time in the Kingsquard and tried to be the best knight that he could , I just don't understand how somebody could read those chapters and not be more understanding of the kind of man that he is.

Also we know very little about what happened before AGOT , i would be careful about condemning somebody until we know more of the facts.

[Bolivar]

This is literature, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I can't believe that people are pointing to Selmy as a morally deprived character.

I think it was just easy at the time for everyone to acquiesce to the idea that Robert won the game of thrones by right of conquest. On top of that, Robert did have some claim to press on the iron throne, despite it not being a strong one. Renly recalled to Catelyn that there were arguments among the Maesters about it, so it at least passes the laugh test.

But why everyone was so ready to accept Robert was because there was no tenable hope for the Targaryen cause. As Pycelle put it, Rhaegar and his children were dead, Viserys was a boy, and Selmy notes rumors that he was a mad boy at that. It was over, and everyone had to accept it, including Selmy. He's a man who needs a King, and there was one on the Iron Throne, a "good knight" in his opinion at that.

He didn't like Jaime in the Kingsguard. He hated the idea and, despite what the show portrays, hated Jaime as well. And when the assassination of Daenerys is brought up, he is opposed to it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We do not know if Barristan was even there when the Starks were killed but even if he was what could he possibly have done to save the Starks?

We saw in his POV chapters in ADWD that he is a man who faced very difiicult choices throughout his time in the Kingsquard and tried to be the best knight that he could , I just don't understand how somebody could read those chapters and not be more understanding of the kind of man that he is.

Also we know very little about what happened before AGOT , i would be careful about condenning somebody until we know more of the facts.

For me personally, I could theoretically stand him. He is just an average guy that made some wrong decisions. But a rather large part of the fandom praise Barristan the Bold to the heavens, for his moral choices. That bullshit (sorry) put my hackles up and I despise him for that.

[Ser Lepus]

Not if Joffrey wasn't Robert's legitimate heir. Which he isn't. The reason the WOFK happens is that the succession to Robert is unclear. At that point, even if the Targs were legitimately deposed by Robert's rebellion, they're still claimants for the succession after his death.

Plus, as is often pointed out, Daenerys has dragons, and there's a precedent for the exclusive possessor of dragons to be considered the true monarch of Westeros even if they have no prior claim whatsoever.

Selmy thought Joffrey was Robert's legitimate heir; he begged Joffrey to keep him as part of his kingsguard, and only defied him and abandoned the court after being refused.

This is literature, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I can't believe that people are pointing to Selmy as a morally deprived character.

I think it was just easy at the time for everyone to acquiesce to the idea that Robert won the game of thrones by right of conquest. On top of that, Robert did have some claim to press on the iron throne, despite it not being a strong one. Renly recalled to Catelyn that there were arguments among the Maesters about it, so it at least passes the laugh test.

But why everyone was so ready to accept Robert was because there was no tenable hope for the Targaryen cause. As Pycelle put it, Rhaegar and his children were dead, Viserys was a boy, and Selmy notes rumors that he was a mad boy at that. It was over, and everyone had to accept it, including Selmy. He's a man who needs a King, and there was one on the Iron Throne, a "good knight" in his opinion at that.

He didn't like Jaime in the Kingsguard. He hated the idea and, despite what the show portrays, hated Jaime as well. And when the assassination of Daenerys is brought up, he is opposed to it.

But, even if he acknowledged that the Targayren's cause was lost, he didn't have to stay a kingsguard; he could have easily obtained release from his vows, being sworn to the old dynasty and all that; even if he wasn't going to fight for Viserys and Dany, he didn't have to fight for Robert, either...and in staying a kingsguard he was accepting that maybe some day he would be ordered to fight the Targayren heirs.

[Mikkel]

But, even if he acknowledged that the Targayren's cause was lost, he didn't have to stay a kingsguard; he could have easily obtained release from his vows, being sworn to the old dynasty and all that; even if he wasn't going to fight for Viserys and Dany, he didn't have to fight for Robert, either...and in staying a kingsguard he was accepting that maybe some day he would be ordered to fight the Targayren heirs.

I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that he was in any kind of position to make demands (such as "let me go do my own thing!"). I feel pretty certain that a condition of his pardon was staying on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It wasn't a "aww, it's ok you little tyke, you, NOW, what do you want to do with the rest of your life?" situation. The fact is there WAS no absolute "honorable" choice, other than perhaps taking the black, assuming that was given as an option.

[Ser Lepus]

I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that he was in any kind of position to make demands (such as "let me go do my own thing!"). I feel pretty certain that a condition of his pardon was staying on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It wasn't a "aww, it's ok you little tyke, you, NOW, what do you want to do with the rest of your life?" situation. The fact is there WAS no absolute "honorable" choice, other than perhaps taking the black, assuming that was given as an option.

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, he would be allowed to take the black and join the Night's Watch. And I personally believe that Robert would have allowed him to leave the Kingsguard and would have asked the High Septon to annull his oaths; Robert was merciful towards his defeated enemies (save the Targayrens, that is) and he obviously respected Selmy.

And even if Selmy wasn't released from his oaths, the Night Watch remained an option; once there he would cause no trouble to anybody, there is no reason for either Tywin or Robert to forbid him the Night Watch; the thing is, Selmy wanted to be a kingsguard, not a crow.

[Hear Us Roar]

It would have been kind of hypocritical, since he bent the knee rather than dying with his prince and brothers on the trident.

[Lion of Judah]

I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that he was in any kind of position to make demands (such as "let me go do my own thing!"). I feel pretty certain that a condition of his pardon was staying on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It wasn't a "aww, it's ok you little tyke, you, NOW, what do you want to do with the rest of your life?" situation. The fact is there WAS no absolute "honorable" choice, other than perhaps taking the black, assuming that was given as an option.

What about from a philosophical standpoint? A member of the KG should always be ready and willing to die, failure is not imbedded in their mentality. So the thought of another taking over can never enter your thoughts if you are truly dedicated, and focused to the task at hand, which just so happens to be preventing someone from taking over! In your honest opinion do you think he did his duty? I view it as thus; he didn't live in exile and he didn't die, which IMO was the only way he could have truly fulfilled his oath.

[mormont]

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, he would be allowed to take the black and join the Night's Watch. And I personally believe that Robert would have allowed him to leave the Kingsguard and would have asked the High Septon to annull his oaths; Robert was merciful towards his defeated enemies (save the Targayrens, that is) and he obviously respected Selmy.

I'm not sure it would ever have occurred to anyone that Selmy could leave the Kingsguard. The KG oath was taken for life, after all. Until Cersei stripped Barristan of his position, as far as we can tell, nobody ever left the KG. Even Jaime seems to have been regarded as a Kingsguard after Aerys' death, albeit his status in AGOT appears in many ways to be vague. So if Robert didn't execute Barristan, then logically he would have to remain in the KG.

I'm also unsure that Kingsguard could, even in theory, take the Black. Unlike with maesters, there's a conflict of interest there.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm not sure it would ever have occurred to anyone that Selmy could leave the Kingsguard. The KG oath was taken for life, after all. Until Cersei stripped Barristan of his position, as far as we can tell, nobody ever left the KG. Even Jaime seems to have been regarded as a Kingsguard after Aerys' death, albeit his status in AGOT appears in many ways to be vague. So if Robert didn't execute Barristan, then logically he would have to remain in the KG.

I'm also unsure that Kingsguard could, even in theory, take the Black. Unlike with maesters, there's a conflict of interest there.

See Lucamore "the Lusty" Strong. He went from Kingsguard to the Wall. Granted, he fucked the kinngs paramour and was castrated, but wh cares for the details, there is precedent for a KG taking the Black.

[mormont]

Yeah, had forgotten that one. That does clear that up. Thanks. :)

[Blackfish Tully]

See Lucamore "the Lusty" Strong. He went from Kingsguard to the Wall. Granted, he fucked the kinngs paramour and was castrated, but wh cares for the details, there is precedent for a KG taking the Black.

Good point but is there any precedent for somebody choosing to give up a White Cloak and take the black.

Also do not forget that there are important political issues at play as well . With two Targaryan heirs in exile do you think Jon Arryn wanted Barristan Selmy leaving Kings Landing and possibly joinig them. Tywin Lannister understood that having Barristan Selmy at your side was an important piece for somebody who wanted to be King and I'm sure that Jon Arryn understood it as well. I'm sure it was made quite clear to Barristan that it was either the White Cloak or the Black cells.

[Summer is Ending]

Came across a passage about Barristan today in a Tyrion pov that was interesting.

Selmy had never approved of Jaime’s presence in his precious Kingsguard. Before the rebellion, the old knight thought him too young and untried; afterward, he had been known to say that the Kingslayer should exchange that white cloak for a black one.

On first thought I'd want to say it makes it even worse he would stay in the KG. Yet than what would you think if he did give up the cloak. Would he be holding to his principles or would he be a quitter and wrong in giving his precious KG wholly over to the Kingslayer types and his ilk?

[selmyisgod]

Because I think if he had objected rather than Jaime being thrown out, Selmy would have been, and I don't think Selmy really knows/wants to have any other job than being in a Kinsguard/Queensguard as its the only thing he has ever done.