Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Lummel]

Yes, Varys gives his riddle in the first chapter and that issue of power is something that runs through most - if not all the Tyrion chapters in ACOK.

I am tempted to say that the AGOT chapters were about Lannister privilege. What Tyrion got, enjoyed or benefited from by virtue of being Tywin's son (it was a mixed bag).

ACOK was about power, not just for Tyrion, a number of other characters Renly, Stannis and Robb too are attempting to recreate themselves as kings and create authority for themselves. In AGOT and ACOK there is something of a power vacuum at Kings Landing, King Bob didn't care about government and King Joff is easily distracted by a fancy crossbow, so we see some manoeuvring to claim or enforce authority.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion XII

From Sansa IV (just prior to this one):

Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?”

“Everyone wants to be loved.”

“I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

overview

This is the infamous swan-dinner chapter, opening with Tyrion dressing for the event. Varys hands him a parchment containing news that Bran and Rickon are dead; Tyrion is adamant about being the one to tell Cersei. Tyrion gives Cersei the letter, and they discuss the ramifications of this and other business: LF and Stannis, Lady Tanda, Tyrion’s wildlings, the Antlermen, Varys, and the logistics of Joff’s participation in the impending battle.

Cersei creates tension, leading to a grand finale in which she informs Tyrion that she’s got “his whore.” She distrusts him, believing he’s working against her and her children. She informs Tyrion that she intends to keep “his whore” hostage to ensure he doesn’t kill her family. Of course, it’s actually Alayaya, not Shae, and he turns it against her, promising that Tommen will be abused in kind should any harm befall Yaya. He promises to ruin Cersei.

He returns to his chambers, surprised to find a naked Shae waiting for him. Tyrion wants to figure out how she got in, uneasy at the thought of his chamber’s vulnerability. She was blindfolded, and despite catching a glimpse of a dragon mosaic floor image, she’s unable to say much more about the passages. Unable to perform sexually, Tyrion tells Shae to go to sleep, as he stays up thinking.

observations

• The menu is a bit over the top: chestnut soup, hot bread, greens dressed with apples and pine nuts; lamprey pie, honeyed ham, buttered carrots, white beans and bacon, roast swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters. This meal puts Tyrion off swan for a while, as we’ll see again in DwD.
  
• LF is discussed as they eat apples; a bael is actually a real fruit commonly called a “stone apple.” Lady Tanda and the Clansmen during the ham; Lollys is constantly likened to a pig. The Antler Men and Varys during the Swan; this is literally too unctuous for Tyrion to swallow. The blackberry tart is how Cersei segues into Yaya (really, Cersei- blackberry tart?)
  
• The Kettleblacks are the ones who allegedly found and delievered Alayaya to Cersei, claiming she was Tyrion’s “whore.” We know they also work for Tyrion and LF; do they not know this was a mistake, or if they do, is it being in Tyrion’s employ that “encouraged” them to make this mistake purposely? Is this a gesture of good will on their part, or do they simply not know? Either way, I think Varys had something to do with it.
  

analysis

Aperitif

Tyrion dresses richly for the dinner, but decides against wearing his chain of office- the hands—as a conciliatory gesture toward Cersei. She apparently hates to be reminded that he’s the Hand. It’s a curious and significant decision. Not wearing the hand-chain doesn’t remove Tyrion’s title, but for Cersei, who it’s implied puts stock in power trappings, does the omission of the chain effectively undermine Tyrion’s authority?

Tyrion’s reaction to the news about Bran and Rickon somewhat aligns with our sympathies. He exclaims, “Gods be good!” and wonders if the wolves are howling again. He insists that he tell Cersei the news himself, as he is very keen on seeing her reaction. It’s unclear exactly what reaction Tyrion wanted from Cersei; she’s a bit callous, but claims to take no pleasure in the news, and tells Tyrion how stupid she thinks Jaime was to push Bran. Tyrion brings up the macro-implication of the news: will Catelyn believe it was a non-Lannister enterprise, or will they kill Jaime. This gets Cersei’s attention. Cersei was similarly slow on the uptake during the riot chapter; Cersei repeatedly doesn’t seem to grasp the connection between the Stark kids’ safety and her brother’s.

Entree

As the food is served, Tyrion tries to assuage his sister’s fears about the state of the kingdom and city. The tone changes slightly when she asks about the Antler Men. Tyrion assures her that Varys says they have all been weeded out. As he says this, he realizes the swan is “too rich for his taste,” and Cersei starts scolding him for his reliance on Varys. The shift is a curious dynamic. At first, Cersei seemed almost vulnerable, asking Tyrion to update her on matters, which gives him an upper hand of sorts in the power dynamic on issues he understands more fully than she does.

But now Cersei’s going for one of Tyrion’s weak points—Varys. We know that Tyrion is somewhat insecure about the extent to which he relies on Varys. Cersei uses this as leverage to ease into the upper hand, half chiding him, half schooling him on Varys’ MO. To hammer home the lesson about trusting Varys, she lets him know that Varys came to her with Tyrion’s plan to separate Sandor from Joffrey.

Tyrion explains his rationale, letting her know he needs Sandor and Swann to lead sorties in the upcoming battle, while Osmund and Trant will guard Joffrey. Tyrion wants Joffrey to appear during the battle for reasons of morale, but Cersei strongly protests the idea. Cersei relents when Tyrion appeals to Joff’s father, Jaime: “If you want the boy to be his father’s son, let him play the part.” He assures Cersei the city won’t fall, but in reality is placing a lot of faith in his father: “if it does, pray that we can hold the Red Keep long enough for our lord father to march to our relief.” For further conciliation, he offers Lord Gyles and Boros Blount back.

Dessert

Cersei calls for the sweet: “I hope you like blackberry tarts.” Tyrion plays into this, proclaiming that he loves all kinds of tarts. He of course thinks he’s twisting the word tart to mean “loose women,” but doesn’t realize that this meaning is precisely the pun Cersei was making as well. Cersei’s moving into position, stalking her prey, and the tension rises.

She poses the question of why Varys is so dangerous, and offers an answer: “because he doesn’t have a cock.” He tries to strike back by reminding her that she doesn’t either, thinking, “And don’t you just hate that.” I would argue that Tyrion has the right measure of Cersei’s feelings regarding not having said cock as a general feature of her personality. But this evening she channels the envy to hate, framing possession of one to be a considerable weakness, and letting Tyrion know that his led her to outsmart him.

She leans forward, providing him with an ample view of cleavage (seriously, is there any time this family isn’t plotting to kill, rape, seduce or sleep with each other?) She moves in for the kill, letting Tyrion know she holds his “whore.” She is apparently convinced that Tyrion means to harm her and her children, and is using this “whore” as leverage against him:

“A Lannister always pays his debts,” she said. “You’ve been scheming against me since the day you came to King’s Landing. You sold Myrcella, stole Tommen, and now you plot to have Joff killed. You want him dead so you can rule through Tommen.”

Well, I can’t say the notion isn’t tempting.

Cersei truly seems to believe that Tyrion is trying to kill Joffrey, defuse her, and rule through Tommen. We know that Tyrion is absolutely not considering the death of Joff as an option (though she is right about Tyrion’s attempting to defuse her, yet we also know he’s doing this on his father’s orders). Now, Varys and Bronn are the ones who planted the idea to kill Joff to Tyrion, and he refused. Varys chose to tell Cersei of Tyrion’s plan to separate Joff from Sandor. Of all the information Varys could have leaked to make it seem like he’s telling her “enough,” he chooses intel that plants the image of Tyrion as Joffrey’s potential killer to raise her suspicions and drive a further wedge between them. I don’t think Varys is working with LF, but I think that Varys is very purposely trying to cultivate the idea that Tyrion intends to kill Joffrey.

Tyrion refuses to say Shae’s name, calling her only “the whore,” for the sake of mitigating the leverage Cersei thinks she has; if Shae seems unimportant to him, maybe Cersei will relent. Cersei is relentless, however, and Tyrion finally understands just how firmly she believes he means to kill Joffrey: “Gods be good, Cersei, they’re my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?” “A small and twisted one.” It’s a critical moment in the scene, where the wrong words could doom him. To proceed, he considers what others would do in his place. He thinks Jaime would end up killing Cersei right then and there, but dismisses it for both practical and political concerns.

He realizes that he must channel Tywin: “Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable.” He challenges Cersei, asking for proof of this “whore” to call her bluff. It’s Alayaya, not Shae, and Tyrion realizes that he’s “won:” “You’ve lost, Cersei, and the Kettleblacks are even bigger fools than Bronn claimed.”

Tyrion plays along, and Cersei lets him know that the “whore” is a hostage for Tommen. Tyrion take the upper hand, letting her know “that scale tips two ways.”

His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he’d reached for his father’s voice, and found it. “Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. “You would not dare.”

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. “Dare? I’ll do it myself.”

Tyrion is actively channeling Tywin, using Tywin’s methods to achieve the advantage in these negotiations. It involves keeping a poker face, being perfectly emotionless, detached, calm, and it brings Cersei to heel. He’s also playing the part of the monster Cersei thinks he is, the “twisted demon monkey,” threatening her by embracing and exaggerating the identity she sees in him. I think most of us see Tywin as the real monster, so it’s curious to see Tyrion’s “monsterism” be purposefully integrated with Tywin’s “wit and wisdom.”

Tyrion gently apologizes to Yaya, feeling guilt that she was hurt only because of him. Another “whore” was used by one of his family members as a weapon against him. He wishes he’d thought of this possible consequence in his meetings with Yaya; I think he does feel remorse. Between guilt for Yaya and the fact that Cersei tried to double cross him, he lays some vitriol on his sister, drawing once more on his father’s lessons:

“I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You’ve ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don’t know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you’ll know the debt is paid.”

In war, his father had told him once, the battle is over in the instant one army breaks and flees. No matter that they’re as numerous as they were a moment before, still armed and armored; once they had run before you they would not turn to fight again. So it was with Cersei.

Postprandial

On route to his rooms, he beats himself up for being so blind about the risk to Yaya. In his bed, he finds a naked Shae, wearing only the chain of hands around her neck that he had purposely left before dinner. He’s finding something cloying about Shae’s presence there, which seems to stem from the fact that another woman took a beating intended for her.

There is an unflattering moment of Shae, where she lambastes Lollys, expressing the opinion that Lollys’ condition is disproportionate to what happened to her at the riot: after all, “all they did was fuck her.” (Not cool, Shae).

Also vexing Tyrion is the fact that Shae’s surprise presence in the room makes it extremely clear that the tower is vulnerable to future surprise entries. This fact weighs most heavily on Tyrion’s mind, and he desperately tries to figure out where the entrance to the tunnels is. Shae tells him that Varys made her wear a hood, but that at one point she was able to glimpse the floor with a red and black mosaic of dragons. She describes a path of ladders, gates and more ladders.

We all know how this ends. At this point in time, though, did Varys know how it would happen? I think that the episode with Yaya and Cersei is rooted in Varys- he wanted this to happen, wanted a rift between the Lannisters, but didn’t want Shae harmed yet. In the short term, bringing Shae to Tyrion’s chamber is meant to reassure Tyrion that Shae is safe after that scene; there’s a “good will” gesture at play. But the message Tyrion takes is the right one: that his chambers are vulnerable and that future surprise visits will happen (namely, by him).

If Varys actually knew how this would play out, he deserves a Nobel prize. It seems like he does. He creates enough doubt in Cersei about Tyrion’s intentions with Joffrey. He knows that battle is coming, and knows that once Tywin comes to KL that Tyrion will no longer be Hand. He might even have heard whispers of the deal LF struck (though I continue to doubt they are working in together). He wants Joffrey removed and Tommen in power. LF takes responsibility for framing Tyrion for the PW, but it would seem Varys is already putting pieces into place to remove Tyrion from KL to aid in his Aegon plot. (side note: LF-the-mastermind is utterly laughable; if it wasn’t complementary to Varys’ plans, LF could never have done it). Shae just happened to see the dragon mosaic, which Tyrion will just so happen to see and inspire him to go to the Hand’s chambers to kill Tywin. With the lovely foreshadowing of naked Shae clad only in the Hand’s chain around her neck in the Hand’s bed.

[Lummel]

Swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters is overkill. Swans in Britain are restricted to Her Majesty's table, commoners like wot I am don't get to eat it. But Cersei is a Queen so that's ok. Oysters are often said to be an aphrodisiac food which might link to the glimpse of cleavage and be a play on Tyrion's masculine weakness.

Anyhow now that you have laid it out like that Butterbumps! Then I suppose we can say there is three part structure. First Tyrion thinks he will deliver a message to Cersei, then Cersei delivers a message to him - which backfires. Finally Varys delivers a message to Tyrion which disturbs him - but not as much as it should disturb him I feel.

The green and black eyes remind me of Rapsie's reference to Professor Woland in Master and Margarita as another character with green and black eyes. Professor Woland is an alias for the Devil. Tyrion is known as the Imp - which is a kind of demon. Here Tyrion promises to behave demoniacally towards his nephew, like a Richard III.

[Fire Eater]

The swan is probably a dose of irony on GRRM's part as the swan represents love, unity and harmony, none of which are shared between Tyrion and Cersei.

[Ragnorak]

Wonderful job Butterbumps!

I believe our first philosophical journey into "love" comes from Jon's POV. Compare that to Cersei's views.

What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms… or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?”

“Everyone wants to be loved.”

“I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

Aemon's words are about not letting the love that is assumed to be inherent in one's actual family interfere with the duty to the the new family, the brothers in the Nights Watch. Yet with the Lannisters we see the lack of family love interfering with political duty. Compare that with Yoren treating Ned as a brother for the love of Benjen, ironically skirting the line of the very reason Aemon speaks of. If a dynasty fails over a marriage of love we think of it as tragic. Here we have a dynasty failing over the lack of love. It will be saved in name because those truly wielding power find the Lannisters easiest to manipulate precisely because of their lack of love.

[Ragnorak]

Who told Cersei about Alayaya? I suspect Littlefinger. Prior to rereading the chapter I was inclined to think it was Varys. It might be. Cersei is disavowing that it came from Varys which she could be doing to throw Tyrion off the scent, but at the same time she's undermining Tyrion's faith in Varys. If Cersei's source truly was Varys I would think that she would be boasting of owning him or avoiding his mention completely.

This back and forth between them reminds me of the back and forth between Varys and LF in the council meeting. That was when Tyrion first though Cersei was plotting something and eventually concluded it was the Kettleblacks. I suspect the Alayaya was in the works back then. LF was smug because he believed he was on to Tyrion and had tipped off Cersei to outmaneuver Varys in the pawn game. Varys will eventually play the Shae card making himself valuable to Tywin (the one that matters) and proving to Cersei that he is in fact better than LF. What we saw playing out between LF and Varys then is now playing out between Cersei and Tyrion, the pawns.

The topic of love comes up repeatedly in this chapter apart from the bit in Sansa's POV.

Cersei made a sour face. “It was Jaime who threw him from that window, not me. For love, he said, as if that would please me.

“A token of her love?”

“A bribe.

“Bronn’s sellswords will never fight without me,” he lied.

“Oh, I think they will. It’s your gold they love, not your impish wit. Have no fear, though, they won’t be without you. I won’t say I haven’t thought of slitting your throat from time to time, but Jaime would never forgive me if I did.”

We have the often repeated theme of love vs money but also references to Jaime and love. Cersei claimed in Sansa that love was a poison. Does she love Jaime? Does she consider Jaime's love for her a poison? What of her love for Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella? Does Cersei think Tommen's love for her is such that Tyrion could rule through him despite her wishes? What of her love for Tywin? IIRC Joffrey being Jaime's son is what killed Tyrion's temptation to ponder eliminating Joffrey and putting Tommen on the throne. Their respective love of Jaime seems to keep them from boiling over into open warfare and oddly not any great fear of their father's reaction.

The love vs money theme also coincides with more Stark associations and the money and loyalty/power theme. His thoughts of the direwolves bring us back to his opening paragraph where Winterfell is a maze and being naked (stripped od possessions and Lannister trappings) is his primal fear association.

Tyrion remembered how the wolves had howled when the Stark boy had fallen. Are they howling now, I wonder?

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled.

Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Here Cersei accurately points out that with money she can own his sellswords too. Tyrion has ironically sent his unbuyable men away to protect exactly what Cersei fears he is a threat to. He also left the Lannister trapping (his Hand necklace) at home as a peace gesture to Cersei. Part of this is that he believes he has declawed Cersei but there is also the real threat of Stannis that, at least for Tyrion, overrides his conflict with Cersei. When threatened by Cersei, rather than embrace Jaime who is the single thread of unity between them, he chooses to embrace Tywin.

Tyrion stared at the dregs on the bottom of his wine cup. What would Jaime do in my place? Kill the bitch, most likely, and worry about the consequences afterward. But Tyrion did not have a golden sword, nor the skill to wield one. He loved his brother’s reckless wrath, but it was their lord father he must try and emulate. Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable. If I fail this test, I had as lief seek out the nearest grotesquerie.

Tyrion wanted to laugh at her. It would have been so sweet, so very very sweet, but it would have given the game away. You’ve lost, Cersei, and the Kettleblacks are even bigger fools than Bronn claimed. All he needed to do was say the words.

If these animals think they can use her… well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways.” His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he’d reached for his father’s voice, and found it. “Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. “You would not dare.”

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. “Dare? I’ll do it myself.”

That Tyrion wants to laugh and does smile while embracing his inner Tywin is noteworthy. So is the threat of rape, his Rains of Castamere like parting threat, and his claim to do the deed himself. Tywin wants to build a Lannister dynasty, but look at his own children. Jaime isn't his heir because of Cersei's plotting. She made Tyrion the technical heir through her selfish plotting that also forced Tywin to resign as Hand. His own children have been undermining him since before Robert's Rebellion and we continue to see that play out here. The Lannister regime survives because Varys and LF value them on the Throne and fear Stannis. The very alliance that will save them from Stannis was bought with Joffrey's life-- a proposition that was marketed with their own gold. Cersei suspects Tyrion of trying to kill Joffrey, but her mistrust of Tyrion is what empowered LF to do exactly what Cersei fears here.

The dynamic here is not unlike Arya and Joffrey where the heir is "attacked" to defend a commoner though Tyrion comes off a bit less noble in his methods. This is also the second time Tyrion has won the loyalty of that brothel in a way money could never buy-- a truly ironic thing given the whore/money stereotype.

The age of thirteeen comes up a great deal especially as a comparison. We saw it with Tywin and Tyrion in the tent at the end of a GoT and it continues to crop up.

Shae is naked wearing the Hand necklace talking about how cold the hands are-- very similar to when he finds her in bed with Tywin later.

[Winterfellian]

Great post as always Butterbumps!

Tyrion gently apologizes to Yaya, feeling guilt that she was hurt only because of him. Another “whore” was used by one of his family members as a weapon against him. He wishes he’d thought of this possible consequence in his meetings with Yaya; I think he does feel remorse. Between guilt for Yaya and the fact that Cersei tried to double cross him, he lays some vitriol on his sister, drawing once more on his father’s lessons:

Is interesting that Tyrion associates both this "whores" with a form of bloody image. He once describes Tysha's House arms to Sansa as a hundred silver coins and one gold over a bloody sheet. Alayaya's broken lips left a smear of blood on his forehead. A bloody kiss. All this after being traced back to him. Like Tyrion said it himself: "She (they) would never had been hurt but for me". In both cases in their association with Tyrion that put them on the map but it was his famiy (Cersei and Tywin) that did the damage.

I think is interesting that Tyrion thinks to himself to take example from Tywin Lannister becaue I think Cersei was doing something similar when she ordered Yaya's arrest. I wonder how much Cersei knows of what transpired between Tyrion, Tysha and Tywin's guards because even if she didn't she ended up reacting very similar to Yaya in comparison to the way Tywin handled Tysha. They both let this "whores" get hurt by their guards in order to teach Tyrion a lesson. Cersei's lesson seems to be that she can be dangerous too.

[butterbumps!]

Who told Cersei about Alayaya? I suspect Littlefinger. Prior to rereading the chapter I was inclined to think it was Varys. It might be. Cersei is disavowing that it came from Varys which she could be doing to throw Tyrion off the scent, but at the same time she's undermining Tyrion's faith in Varys. If Cersei's source truly was Varys I would think that she would be boasting of owning him or avoiding his mention completely.

This back and forth between them reminds me of the back and forth between Varys and LF in the council meeting. That was when Tyrion first though Cersei was plotting something and eventually concluded it was the Kettleblacks. I suspect the Alayaya was in the works back then. LF was smug because he believed he was on to Tyrion and had tipped off Cersei to outmaneuver Varys in the pawn game. Varys will eventually play the Shae card making himself valuable to Tywin (the one that matters) and proving to Cersei that he is in fact better than LF. What we saw playing out between LF and Varys then is now playing out between Cersei and Tyrion, the pawns.

That's a really good point about the fact that if it came from Varys, Cersei would have thrown it at Tyrion. I should have specified what I meant when I asserted that I think Varys was behind it-- I don't think Varys came to Cersei with the info directly. From what I understand of how Varys operates, I think he'd have planted the idea to Bronn to throw an investigation into Tyrion's sex life off the rails. Bronn is the one who interacts with the Kettleblacks, so I think the specifics of the "whore" chosen might have come from Bronn-- the KBs probably came to Bronn to let him know that Cersei wanted to find out if Tyrion was keeping a woman, and Bronn planted a false trail. Bronn had probably consulted with Varys before relaying any info to the KBs.

The KBs might be in LF's employ, but they are also in Tyrion's. They are the ones who find and bring Yaya. I don't think they actually believe Yaya is Tyrion's mistress; if they had brought the right woman, Tyrion would have gotten rid of them. This act lets Cersei think they are hers, but let Tyrion know they aren't. Though, admittedly, Tyrion doesn't pick up on that, and just believes they are incompetant. Which is probably part of the point as well- to underestimate them.

I think that LF gave the KBs instructions to make both Cersei and Tyrion believe that they belong to both, but I think it was Cersei who came to the KBs to make inquiries about Tyrion's mistress. And I think the whole thing came to fruition due to their own motivation to not upset Tyrion too much and to keep Cersei happy, with the additional aid of Varys-Bronn's input.

ETA: LF could have originally told Cersei that Tyrion was keeping a woman, but I got the sense that Cersei had already suspected as much. I think the fact that Tyrion married Tysha came up several times in their conversations, and I sort of thought she'd just assumed he had a woman somewhere.

[Lummel]

I liked this line "Not that he truly thought she'd poison him, but it never hurt to be careful" which considering that he had poisoned her a bare few chapters earlier is pretty funny.

With regard to who told Cersei I tended towards Varys if only because of

You put too much trust in that eunuch...you think you're the only one he whispers secrets to? He gives each of us just enough to convince us that we'd be helpless without him..."

He needn't have given away a whole story, we saw earlier that he gives Tyrion hints rather than full answers.

Timeline wise Tyrion must have been tailed and Chatyaya's identified before Tyrion X which is when he rides direct to his manse rather than going via the wardrobe into Narnia. In which case Littlefinger could have been involved. Since he is in the brothel business is he picking up on shop talk and gossip from other brothel owners?

[Ragnorak]

I've gone back and forth on whether it was Varys or not. I actually read the chapter looking for proof that it was Varys but ended up with a different conclusion by the end. I don't doubt Varys has a hand in this playing out, Shae's presence in his chambers is proof of that.

There is a certain honesty between them in that scene. We know Cersei is honest with him about the events of Bran's fall and Tyrion is far the most part honest with her as well.

It was the best use I could have made of them,” he told her truthfully.

It comes off more as an airing of family gripes than a political intrigue dinner. Even the opening line hints at that.

Pod dressed him for his ordeal in a plush velvet tunic of Lannister crimson and brought him his chain of office. Tyrion left it on the bedside table.

He is showing up dressed as a Lannister without the symbol of his political office.

Cersei does throw Varys telling her about Sandor in his face but claims to have a different source for Alayaya. Given the honesty of this exchange I'm inclined to believe it. I get the sense that Cersei believed this would be a grand trump card of sorts and she didn't really expect to be battling Tyrion after this. That Cersei is leaving him in charge despite her mistrust of his intentions toward Joffrey is telling. She has faith in his ability to defeat Stannis (at least more than she has in her own.) Even enough faith to believe that he has a plan to beat Stannis with enough room to squeeze in the elimination of Joffrey. This latter part is the whole point of her current ploy. She is ceding power to him regarding the defense but taking out an insurance policy on Joffrey's life.

Shae's comments on Lolly's really bring home the heart of winter theme we covered earlier. Sex is so meaningless for her that a brutal gang rape is just some fucking. It says a great deal deal about how emotionally empty her sex with Tyrion is from her perspective. The Tysha parallel is also there. It is also a huge contrast between Tyrion feeling for Bran and Rickon's deaths and his role in placing Alayaya in danger and Shae's utter indifference to Lolly's suffering. Her "baby in the belly" comment made me think of her offer to bear children for Tyrion.

[Winterfellian]

I agree with Ragnorak. Am more inlined to believe in LF involvement than in Varys's

That's a really good point about the fact that if it came from Varys, Cersei would have thrown it at Tyrion. I should have specified what I meant when I asserted that I think Varys was behind it-- I don't think Varys came to Cersei with the info directly. From what I understand of how Varys operates, I think he'd have planted the idea to Bronn to throw an investigation into Tyrion's sex life off the rails. Bronn is the one who interacts with the Kettleblacks, so I think the specifics of the "whore" chosen might have come from Bronn-- the KBs probably came to Bronn to let him know that Cersei wanted to find out if Tyrion was keeping a woman, and Bronn planted a false trail. Bronn had probably consulted with Varys before relaying any info to the KBs.

Perhaps am misunderstanding your post Bumps, but I don't think Bronn could have offered Alayaya as a false trail. First, he doesn't know about the secret wardrobe so for all Bronn knows, Tyrion stays in Chataya the whole night. Also, when Bronn becomes a knight in ASOS he boasts of bedding Alayaya now that he has the "Sir" before his name or something like that. If I remember correctly Tyrion was angry at this because he said to himself that as far as Bronn knows Alayaya is the woman Tyrion had been bedding and that Bronn had always show a tendency to have eat of his leavings but that the issue with Alayaya was a bit too much.

[Lummel]

...Shae's comments on Lolly's really bring home the heart of winter theme we covered earlier. Sex is so meaningless for her that a brutal gang rape is just some fucking. It says a great deal deal about how emotionally empty her sex with Tyrion is from her perspective. The Tysha parallel is also there. It is also a huge contrast between Tyrion feeling for Bran and Rickon's deaths and his role in placing Alayaya in danger and Shae's utter indifference to Lolly's suffering. Her "baby in the belly" comment made me think of her offer to bear children for Tyrion.

This is fascinating. Shae is surely the ultimate Lannister woman, or the purest creation of the lannister system, everything is transactional and she is so alienated even from her own bodily functions. If sex means silver for her then a baby must be worth its weight in gold in her mind.

I think Ragnorak that you have argued before that although Tyrion talks about buying loyalty he really wants the earnt loyalty that the starks receive. Shae is the product of a Lannisterised world in which gold is the only good.

[Ragnorak]

This is fascinating. Shae is surely the ultimate Lannister woman, or the purest creation of the lannister system, everything is transactional and she is so alienated even from her own bodily functions. If sex means silver for her then a baby must be worth its weight in gold in her mind.

I think Ragnorak that you have argued before that although Tyrion talks about buying loyalty he really wants the earnt loyalty that the starks receive. Shae is the product of a Lannisterised world in which gold is the only good.

It was Tze's analysis of Mord and Tysha both with coins slipping through their fingers that made the idea of Tyrion wanting the Stark system idea click-- specifically the part about Tyrion in a Lannister prison of his own choosing. That was when I looked back and wondered if all the Stark associations that we originally attributed to protaganist aligned sympathy did not have another meaning for Tyrion. Tyrion's decent side also comes out in the Stark POVs. His words to Jon, his gift to Bran, his choice to defend Cat on the way to the Eyrie, and his protection of Sansa. In his own POV Tyrion has good impulses or insights and then does shitty things. In the Stark POVs he generally does good things. His direct comparison of the Stark and Lannister systems in recruiting Bronn was another big part of that theory. Bronn is somewhere in a grey sea between friend and sellsword (most sellswords do not steal their highborn master's dinner and chastise that master for not assassinating his nephew when he complains of the stolen dinner.)

The Stark deaths are technically great news as far as the fate of the Lannisters goes. He personally has a very human reaction to the death of children and is very interested in weighing Cersei's reaction. Even Tyrion's response to Cersei fits. If Cat thinks Cersei has something to do with it Jaime might die. In other words if Cersei's public reputation regarding honor is so tarnished that she would seem guilty of this it might get Jaime killed regardless of the truth of the matter. It is also a lesson in empathy to which Cersei responds with a threat to Sansa rather than identification with Cat's plight. This is a curious reaction in a dinner she planned to protect her own children. Tyrion notes it soured her mood but Cersei expresses nothing regarding another mother's plight.

Shae doesn't even seem capable of having her mood soured by dead children unless it interferes with her payment or her wardrobe. Your description is perfect-- she is the ultimate Lannister ideal (outside of birth station.)

ETA

I love the food analysis especially the Swan fit for a Queen and the oyster sexual hints. This was a shared meal which I think emphasizes the family dynamic over the political dynamic that has largely dominated their exchanges in the past. Tyrion notes that it was "too rich" for his taste which is certainly a loaded phrase.

[butterbumps!]

Perhaps am misunderstanding your post Bumps, but I don't think Bronn could have offered Alayaya as a false trail. First, he doesn't know about the secret wardrobe so for all Bronn knows, Tyrion stays in Chataya the whole night. Also, when Bronn becomes a knight in ASOS he boasts of bedding Alayaya now that he has the "Sir" before his name or something like that. If I remember correctly Tyrion was angry at this because he said to himself that as far as Bronn knows Alayaya is the woman Tyrion had been bedding and that Bronn had always show a tendency to have eat of his leavings but that the issue with Alayaya was a bit too much.

Oh heavens, you're right-- Bronn doesn't know. Hmm. I do still think that Varys was involved in the mechanics of it, but I didn't think the idea to inquire about it came from Varys to Cersei. I agree it's either Cersei's own suspicions or LF that gives Cersei the idea to look around.

What I don't quite understand is how the Kettleblacks reconciled the notion that they could do this for Cersei, yet maintain good relations with Tyrion if they thought Yaya was the right woman....

[Tagganaro]

This is fascinating. Shae is surely the ultimate Lannister woman, or the purest creation of the lannister system, everything is transactional and she is so alienated even from her own bodily functions. If sex means silver for her then a baby must be worth its weight in gold in her mind.

I think Ragnorak that you have argued before that although Tyrion talks about buying loyalty he really wants the earnt loyalty that the starks receive. Shae is the product of a Lannisterised world in which gold is the only good.

This is a very interesting notion. I wonder which one represents the "real" Tyrion? Is it the Lannister who believes that most loyalty can simply be bought? Or the Stark groupie who, to quote Lady Dustin, "just wanted to be one of them" or something like that?

I think we see in his heart of hearts that Tyrion does indeed want true loyalty that is earned rather than bought, but at the same time he continues to resort to buying loyalty rather than trying to earn it. It's perhaps a very sad dialogue on Tyrion's own feelings of self-worth and esteem that he continues to resort to buying loyalty rather than earning it, even though it seems clear that at least part of him actually desires to earn it.

What's possibly even more screwed up is that we see that Tyrion almost deludes himself into thinking that "bought=earned" at certain points within certain relationships.

[Tagganaro]

What I don't quite understand is how the Kettleblacks reconciled the notion that they could do this for Cersei, yet maintain good relations with Tyrion if they thought Yaya was the right woman....

BB, come on now! The Kettleblacks don't "reconcile" anything. Even their names ooze evil intentions. They get their money or sex or titles, and then they freaking get the hell out of there.

[butterbumps!]

BB, come on now! The Kettleblacks don't "reconcile" anything. Even their names ooze evil intentions. They get their money or sex or titles, and then they freaking get the hell out of there.

lol. I don't know-- I can't imagine that LF would truly want them to get themselves sacked for going too far with either Cersei or Tyrion. It seems like an absurdly risky move if they actually think Yaya is the right woman. Are they that dumb, do you think?

(btw, I missed you terribly. There's been a surge in LF propaganda that could use your efforts.)

[Tagganaro]

lol. I don't know-- I can't imagine that LF would truly want them to get themselves sacked for going too far with either Cersei or Tyrion. It seems like an absurdly risky move if they actually think Yaya is the right woman. Are they that dumb, do you think?

(btw, I missed you terribly. There's been a surge in LF propaganda that could use your efforts.)

Are they that dumb? Certainly lol. I've yet to see one indication in any moment in the series that any one of the Kettleblack brothers has a brain of any sort. They seem to be run by their ids, or to put it more frankly, their penises from what I've gathered.

haha, yes I am trying to get caught up as of the moment of the happenings on the site. I look forward to to finding more "Catelyn got what was coming to her...Petyr was just a sad boy in love who deserved his happy ending from the object....I mean person (although not really)...of his desires" posts.

[Lummel]

Ah the pot-kettleblacks, barging into a brothel, grabbing a girl, nodding to each other as they think 'good enough' and 'job done'. All they need to know is the brothel, in the brothel everybody seems to know who Tyrion is seeing.

So the only issue is how do they know which brothel? It's either a tip off (Varys, Littlefinger possibly, an inside job maybe) or Tyrion was followed at some stage prior to Tyrion X.

The odd thing about bought vs earnt loyalty is that Tyrion does earn the loyalty of the clansmen by riding into battle with them, in AFFC we learn that Pod was loyal to Tyrion without any exchange of coin. We also know that gold isn't the entirely of the Lannister way. Tywin has earnt loyalty (or maybe respect and fear) through his shock and awe treatment of the Reynes and the Tarbucks. He's demonstrated that he is a fit and capable leader (in a warlord kind of way) and as Hand of the king radiated a lordly presence that impressed itself on Stannis.

Gold is a crutch for Tyrion. A substitute for a lack of confedience in his own ability to inspire others. More of this anon. In the very next chapter...

[Blisscraft]

Passivity - Pod dresses Tyrion for the Cersei supper. Tyrion is not active, but passive from the beginning of this chapter. He dresses in Lannister crimson and avoids wearing the chain of his office, because he does not "wish to inflame the relations" with Cersei. This is an odd choice of color if he doesn't want to inflame her. The first thing she will see when Tyrion arrives for supper is red.

Tyrion the messenger - we've discussed this before and Lummel pointed it out above. He will bear the bad tidings about the Stark boys to Cersei. Tyrion delivers the message first before the supper begins. Unappetizing news. Also, a very passive/aggressive delivery to Cersei. Tyrion wants "to see how she took the news." Tyrion doesn't tell her, her simply hands her the parchment. She must read for herself. Tyrion is "stirring the pot," so to speak, to see what rises to the top and includes the idea that Cersei should be pleased with this bad news.

It's interesting that Cersei blames Jaime and says he never thinks before he acts. Here we have an example of "the pot calling the kettle black." (Sorry Lummel ;) ).

"Jaime" means "I love" in French. Jaime is the one Lannister that all the others love, in spite of his flaws.

Mushrooms - are part of the Swan stuffing. Another important motif later in the story after Tyrion arrives in Pentos are poisonous mushrooms. Also, poison is a part of Tyrion's thoughts regarding Cersei and perhaps an attempt upon Tyrion life. And, poison is the means of the Joffrey's death of later.

Impotence - Tyrion is unable to perform with Shae. He is no longer active. He is passive. Cersei has "unmanned" him with her deviousness and yet she still has yet to uncover the "truth" about Shae. More acting without thinking? Whereas, Tryion with the still undiscovered Shae is thinking too much.